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Old 12-08-2015, 04:26 AM   #1
StefanHultberg
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Koshinage trouble

There have been some discussions here about the "technique from hell", the one most people have. It hurts, it's awkward, it never works etc. Mine is koshinage - in all its myriad variations.

I'm 56, pretty stiff, pretty tall, and now one of my knees has started acting up badly. None of those things are particularly beneficial to koshinage-perfection.

A few years ago I started to try to do "proper koshinage", which is quite different from my old approach to the technique -- finding a tall, very slim guy who can fall like a a God and is not averse to helping an old man look better than what he deserves. I would then get myself into some sort of position and use some good ol' arm strength to pull the guy over my back, sometimes even remembering to let go of his "slam the mat"-arm.

One day, though, I started getting (I think) the hip movement -- and how brilliant koshinage can be, how great it feels when a koshinage really works. The hip does not actually just tilt, it's more like your lower back forms a bridge that then moves a certain distance along a circle, neatly and effortlessly depositing uke on the other side of nage. This movement of the hips, and therefore the lower back depends on bending the one knee and twisting your upper body -- then straightening that knee and bending the other one while twisting the upper body the opposite way.

I would love to concentrate on this for a while in the hope of actually making koshinage my friend, but with a right knee that doesn't like bending -- and doesn't like straightening once bent -- what do I do?

Is there a good alternative way to approximate a "proper" koshinage or am I now stuck with my old arm-strength and the tall slim ukemikami-guy??

Furthermore, I have practiced koshi nage as a follow-up (or finish) to ikkyo, sankyo, yonkyo, gokyo, iriminage, jujigarami, kotegaeshi, shihonage, tenchinage (perhaps), and various kokyunage. Could anyone suggest a reasonable koshinage finish from a nikkyo urawaza or kaitennage?

Suggestions or comments?

Merry Cristmas!!
Stefan
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Old 12-08-2015, 10:35 AM   #2
rugwithlegs
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Re: Koshinage trouble

I worked on a few drills for giving the Uke a better sense of when Nage was under their center. Uke doesn't have to sell it so much as give you feedback when your position is correct. I try to keep the arm power minimal when working on hip placement and precision.

Being a taller man, Koshinage might not be ideal for you. Check out the basic Shodokan 17 kata. Tomiki Sensei was 6" tall, and I see his basics as being more geared toward tall people.

Judo has Koshinage variations for height discrepancies, I believe Hane Goshi and Harai Goshi serve this function.

In Budo Renshu, there is a drawing of the Founder doing a Koshinage by ducking under Uke's arm and throwing belly to belly. Some people call any technique where Nage displaces Uke's center with the torso a Koshinage, like a Taiji Shoulder stroke or body blow. There is a great deal of variety out there for defining Koshinage.

In terms of a Nikyo Koshinage or a kaitenage Koshinage, that's a little tricky. Usually those techniques start with breaking Uke down, so harder to get even lower underneath. Maybe a henka where Uke bounces up and you float him into the throw.

Sore knees - I found I could keep my legs further apart making squatting easier if I learned to shift my weight well.

I would be curious to see what you have been working on. Good luck.
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Old 12-08-2015, 07:34 PM   #3
Janet Rosen
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Re: Koshinage trouble

Quote:
John Hillson wrote: View Post
Sore knees - I found I could keep my legs further apart making squatting easier if I learned to shift my weight well..
Apropos of that...a dojomate who had watched me deal with my one very bad knee made a suggestion one day and it has been amazing. I now incorporate it into working with beginners and also with the seniors in my All Fall Down! course:

Don't think about bending your knees.

Take a nice wide balanced stance. Put your mind instead at your (anatomical) hips - the crease of the groin and entire joint where the femur meets the pelvis - what the Chinese call the kua. Focus on softening and opening there, softening and opening....as you do, you drop more easily into a squat; the knees are just "along for the ride" and barely noticeable.

Janet Rosen
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Old 12-09-2015, 05:58 AM   #4
Tim Ruijs
 
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Re: Koshinage trouble

proper build up to the technique is very important.
Actually koshinage should be easier than forward standing ukemi....

I start with someone on hands and knees and have other rol over that person. You would grab around the shoulder (like normal koshinage) and roll. This gives confidence in how to perform the roll itself.
Next a person stand like in preparation for leapfrog you might know from school the other would try and lay across on the koshi (hip) withou rolling yet.

Finally the complete exercise...

In a real fight:
* If you make a bad decision, you die.
* If you don't decide anything, you die.
Aikido teaches you how to decide.
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Old 12-09-2015, 11:15 AM   #5
rugwithlegs
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Re: Koshinage trouble

http://john-hillson.blogspot.com/201...age-ukemi.html

My understanding is that the OP has the issues with how to do Koshinage well, not how to fall out of it.

I found with this exercise, I could get a very clear sense if I was loaded well, then I could give very concrete feedback on how to improve placement.
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Old 12-09-2015, 11:37 AM   #6
jonreading
 
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Re: Koshinage trouble

For taller folks or injuries, I like both harai goshi and hane goshi. They allow for kuzushi through through elongation of your partner (versus wrapping or folding your partner around your body) and you tend to keep uke on your hip less during the throw.

Also, generally speaking you want to be in a pillar stance for hip throws, not a pyramid stance. It's tough on the knees, but Janet's touched on something I learned form some judo people - stand with feet in a "v" position close (but not touching). When you bend the knees they should move away from each other more like a scissor action and less like a squat. I would describe the movement more as a dance Pliť than a muscle squat. Rotating your femoral heads helps this motion and you should feel like a X-jack, not a power lifter:
O Goshi
The knee bend is important because you generally want your hips to descend below your partner's belt, then ascend through the throw. This movement is more difficult when you essentially set up your butt as a roadblock, then hope to either pull your partner over your butt or your partner "cooperates" to move forward over your butt.

You see the pyramid shape more in throws that block the leg, like tai otoshi and maki komi; neither are technically hips throws, if I remember correctly.

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Old 12-15-2015, 11:14 AM   #7
sorokod
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Re: Koshinage trouble

Quote:
Jon Reading wrote: View Post
For taller folks or injuries, I like both harai goshi and hane goshi. They allow for kuzushi through through elongation of your partner (versus wrapping or folding your partner around your body) and you tend to keep uke on your hip less during the throw.

Also, generally speaking you want to be in a pillar stance for hip throws, not a pyramid stance. It's tough on the knees, but Janet's touched on something I learned form some judo people - stand with feet in a "v" position close (but not touching). When you bend the knees they should move away from each other more like a scissor action and less like a squat. I would describe the movement more as a dance Pliť than a muscle squat. Rotating your femoral heads helps this motion and you should feel like a X-jack, not a power lifter:
O Goshi
The knee bend is important because you generally want your hips to descend below your partner's belt, then ascend through the throw. This movement is more difficult when you essentially set up your butt as a roadblock, then hope to either pull your partner over your butt or your partner "cooperates" to move forward over your butt.

You see the pyramid shape more in throws that block the leg, like tai otoshi and maki komi; neither are technically hips throws, if I remember correctly.
Sounds like you are describing a Judo technique. Koshinage has some history in the forums - this post is relevant.

Something to look at: https://picasaweb.google.com/lh/phot...eat=directlink

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Old 12-16-2015, 12:12 PM   #8
rugwithlegs
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Re: Koshinage trouble

The first time I heard Hane Goshi was to make tall people shorter was from Endo Shihan, an 8th Dan from Aikikai Hombu.

Judo has been subjected to coaching methodology and a number of kinesthiology and sports sciences. Even if the name is not officially an Aikido name, I like to embrace other sources of information. Judo books on Koshinage IME have some better information (some books, not all). I don't reinvent the wheel for myself - O Sensei was dead before I was born so I never met him. Good ideas are good ideas and will cross arts, cultures, and countries. Find what works for you.

What did O Sensei do about doing a hip throw on someone shorter than him? I honestly don't know, but I seem to remember he was too short to apply for the army initially in his youth, and most mere mortals shrink a bit with age. Not many would have been so much shorter as to make Koshinage difficult.

The Budo Renshu book does have a drawing of a type of Koshinage not mentioned in the article referenced above?
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Old 12-16-2015, 05:36 PM   #9
sorokod
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Re: Koshinage trouble

Quote:
John Hillson wrote: View Post
Good ideas are good ideas and will cross arts, cultures, and countries. Find what works for you.
I think this should be examined a bit. From my perspective two points
  • If you start with a system and then commence replacing it's components with bits from other systems or just stuff you make up, after a while you end up with a different system. Off course, this has been done many times, the founder started with Daito-ryu and ended up with something quite different. Which brings me to the second point
  • People like the founder, Kano, Funakoshi etc... have spent their lives doing budo pretty much exclusively and crafted viable martial systems. Where does the "you" in "Find what works for you" gets the competence to do something similar?

Quote:
What did O Sensei do about doing a hip throw on someone shorter than him?
An atemi to the face tends bring the uke up a bit, should be doing this anyway as you are about to turn your back on him.

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Old 12-16-2015, 06:49 PM   #10
rugwithlegs
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Re: Koshinage trouble

The anatomy and the most efficient ways to manipulate it do not change much the world over. If an Aikido person was having, for example, knee pain when attempting an Aikido technique, and a physical therapist or sports medicine specialist had specific feedback on alignment -

I would not dismiss it because:
people I never met who did lots of Budo talked to their students for a short period of time,
and then those students talked to me for a short period of time,
usually in very poor English (but much better English than my Japanese)
And during that short period of time that I was with my teacher, I don't remember him saying the Founder said the same correction using the same medical terminology.

The discepancies are very wide - I have students of Sugano who swear he said there was no such thing as Koshinage in Aikido. In terms of helping someone do better Koshinage, I don't find the idea helpful. Some people will refer to Koshinage as any technique that involves the koshi making contact. The article that was referenced above was very specific in the definition of Koshinage in Aikido - and I have pics of the Founder doing variations outside the definition used in that article. I have been told over the years many things were "not Aikido" that the Founder or one of his students certainly did. What parts of Yoseikan Aikido would some people call "not Aikido?" I suspect lots. The Founder did not create cookie cutter students, but some teachers do try to make 4'11" and 6'9" students look and move exactly the same. I don't consider that approach to be grounded in the Founder's example.

Unlike the Founder of Aikido, who is usually seen as the best exponent of the art of Aikido, Funakoshi and Kano are not considered the only way their arts can be done. Shotokan kata evolve over time, stances change, science is applied. Students when shown a picture of Funakoshi will not imitate it. Judo kata have been created since Kano's death, and the techniques that comprise Judo have changed over time.

I have had a student that was 6'8". Saying he needed to just hit someone in the face to do a Koshinage was not the answer. I could hit his face, but he could touch the floor with his feet and hands over top of me. I did not learn how to do Koshinage to him by looking at black and white still images of O Sensei. At 6' tall, I do not respect nature by trying to make myself 5'.
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Old 12-17-2015, 07:48 AM   #11
jonreading
 
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Re: Koshinage trouble

Quote:
David Soroko wrote: View Post
Sounds like you are describing a Judo technique. Koshinage has some history in the forums - this post is relevant.

Something to look at: https://picasaweb.google.com/lh/phot...eat=directlink
Yup. I think it's important to acknowledge that aikido koshinage is different than judo koshi waza. But, I think there is a lot more good public instruction about judo koshi waza than aikido koshi waza, so it is easier to convey a thought using judo in this case... Also, given we are talking about non-standard technique due to injury, I think it is acceptable to look at adaptable alternatives that do not aggravate injury.

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Old 01-11-2016, 12:00 PM   #12
Jisen Aiki
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Re: Koshinage trouble

Having not read your post...I'll add that breakfalls are a must for koshinage practice. While you can roll ukemi, out of koshinage that I believe would change the way the waza is exacted.lots of aikidoka can't breakfall. I only thought I knew how to breakfall, until mike murakami sensei(sfv judo) taught me the way to fall.
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Old 03-29-2016, 06:54 PM   #13
rugwithlegs
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Re: Koshinage trouble

I was re- reading the original post.

Other things for me - many pics out there look like Nage's arms are spread very wide. This is a little more from my Taiji background, but I keep the hand still in my center. Same corrections for Shihonage, Tenchinage, and Iriminage - put the arm too far to the side, no way to engage the pectoral muscles and the arms are much weaker for it. I often talk about pouring a glass of water on my head.

Also from recent Taiji play, the one basic technique is Kao or shoulder. Working with it, I realized it wasn't about the shoulder joint but rather getting so close to Uke's center that their balance is compromised. Playing with Maai, and often making contact with body parts that Budo calls Koshi - much more than the hip joint.

Just ideas.
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