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Old 12-27-2015, 10:56 AM   #1
Dave Gallagher
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Opinions on this please. (Article: "The founder of Aikido was a fraud")

Please read and watch the video and comment on this please.

http://www.mma.tv/tma/exotics/aikido...r-was-a-fraud/

It is the duty of the strong to protect the weak.
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Old 12-27-2015, 11:13 AM   #2
nikyu62
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Re: Opinions on this please.

Whatever helps them "sell" MMA....
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Old 12-27-2015, 12:18 PM   #3
PeterR
 
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Re: Opinions on this please.

Quote:
Steven Shimanek wrote: View Post
Whatever helps them "sell" MMA....
Articles like that are designed to prop up their students belief in themselves - not something to take personally. Scrolling back through aikiweb we can find the same sort of behaviour - you know aikido is better because we do (or don't do)......waste of ink both ways.

Funny how this sort of thing is rarely face to face.

Peter Rehse Shodokan Aikido
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Old 12-27-2015, 04:55 PM   #4
Hilary
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Re: Opinions on this please.

I have never heard the dodging bullets story, if it is true that Shioda propagated this (particularly post war), then Shioda was full of shit. If Ueshiba did this, it would indicate that bullshit and exaggeration were part of the show. On the other hand, perceptions are manipulated and circumstances are leveraged in times of war.

Tohei once told my sensei about, what I believe, was his first firefight as a platoon leader. Sensei is not immediately available for me to recheck the details at this moment, but this is the essence of the story. At the end Tohie stood up to assess the firefight. Then one of his soldiers turned around and saw him standing, assumed he had been standing up, in the open during the entire skirmish, and announced to the platoon that Tohei could not be shot. Seeing the effect on morale, Tohei did not correct the soldier.

If some sort of mythology has sprouted up around a similar event, or intentional misses were part of a psyching up of the troops I could buy that. After all the Japanese military convinced young men to fly bomb laden aircraft into war ships, so who knows what type of motivation was provided in other venues. Like fish stories, myths do tend to grow over time as well.

With respect to the article, a non-signed article on an MMA TV site…woo authoritative source. Every time I hear how great MMA is for self-defense I link to the video of a Brazilian UFC/Bellator guy getting knocked out in a gas station street fight because he can’t focus beyond the guy right in front of him. It doesn’t in anyway invalidate the martial capabilities of trained ring fighters; it just throws a bit of cold water on the clan of “MMA is unbeatable” folks.

I suspect most of the capable fighters don’t get into this type of crap, they are too busy training to be caught up in the bullshit. The fact that the large tent of Aikido harbors fluffy aiki-dancers provides detractors many a fish betwixt staves to aim at. One has to realized that most of the practitioners of any martial art (or any discipline in general) are not particularly good at it. And if we have learned anything in 2015, loud mouthed “expert” controversy sells.

Last edited by Hilary : 12-27-2015 at 04:57 PM.
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Old 12-27-2015, 04:56 PM   #5
Rupert Atkinson
 
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Re: Opinions on this please.

I have been doing Aikido since I left high school ... and am now 53. I agree with the article and recognised Aikido as part-fake almost straight away. Why? Because I did Judo before Aikido and Jujutsu alongside it. I also did Tomiki Aikido for ten years which is very practical. However, just as TaiChi is 'The Grand Ultimate' so can Aikido be. I recognised something for me in Aikido, right from the start ... the almost insane concentration on perfection of technique that is lacking in most other arts. That is what I get out of Aikido and why I have never quit. For me, Aikido contains the grammar of movement. Aikido has never been for self-defence for me. It can be, but it takes years. For that - I have WingChun and various other stuff - I made my own little self-defence art in fact. Like, if someone attacks me ... this is what I will probably do kinda stuff. I did that in the 80s and still go through it from time to time - it is easy. I have kept my self-defence stuff separate to my Aikido ... most of the time. For me ... Aikido is just 'The Way of Aiki' ... learning how to manipulate my partner's energy. And there is no reason you could not take those ideas and use them in Judo or Jujutsu or wherever. That's it. But I know people who only do Aikido will likely never understand where I am coming from. I once learned Iaido from a guy who only did Iaido. He was fairly OK at it but his complete lack of knowledge of any martial art other than that severely hampered him. He was 100% a Mr Technical kinda guy and would explain everything in intricate detail and yet had no first-hand knowledge of anything he was talking about. Kinda like the guy who likes trains and builds comprehensive train-sets in his attic. He actually knows nothing about real trains, but could talk about them all day and to the uninitiated would be the great expert. Anyway, if you learn Aikido, what you learn helps you learn other arts easily ... but it seldom works the other way around (which should spark you a clue as to its value). So... if you are not prepared to wait for self-defence to mystically materialize, and it won't, you should stretch your wings a little and go broaden your experience. Or, if you are happy just to train Aikido, which is also great fun, just get on with it. This is all just common sense.

Last edited by Rupert Atkinson : 12-27-2015 at 05:03 PM.

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Old 12-27-2015, 11:25 PM   #6
mathewjgano
 
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Re: Opinions on this please.

Quote:
Dave Gallagher wrote: View Post
Please read and watch the video and comment on this please.

http://www.mma.tv/tma/exotics/aikido...r-was-a-fraud/
I didn't realize it stiffled my innate desire to keep my hands up.

Gambarimashyo!
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Old 12-28-2015, 12:50 AM   #7
mathewjgano
 
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Re: Opinions on this please.

Quote:
Matthew Gano wrote: View Post
I didn't realize it stiffled my innate desire to keep my hands up.
...On a more serious note:
It's probably a bit of ignorance about Aikido coupled with some cherry picking. It seems to me they obviously are not "passing out" in the video and whatever the truth is of the story about the shooters, it wouldn't be the first time people told fish stories about authentically capable martial artists. Whatever the case, the author acts as if we all think the same things and says sloppy things like
Quote:
In the 100 year history of the style, no one has actually tried it.
From what I understand, people have tried it in any number of scenarios with mixed results.
I think a better argument could have easily been made for resistance training, and that it's a relatively fluffy article about that...and they're probably just picking on a favorite target because it generates traffic. From my limited vantage, I would guess that there's some good ideas being expressed somewhat poorly.
Yeah, test whatever you're learning according to your purposes and make no assumptions about being able to handle anyone, regardless of what you call it.

Last edited by mathewjgano : 12-28-2015 at 12:53 AM.

Gambarimashyo!
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Old 12-28-2015, 02:18 AM   #8
dps
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Re: Opinions on this please.

Perhaps this unknown author is experiencing some ROID RAGE, after all it is MMA.

dps
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Old 12-28-2015, 02:33 AM   #9
Alec Corper
 
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Re: Opinions on this please.

"I have been doing Aikido since I left high school ... and am now 53. I agree with the article and recognised Aikido as part-fake almost straight away. Why? Because I did Judo before Aikido and Jujutsu alongside it. I also did Tomiki Aikido for ten years which is very practical. However, just as TaiChi is 'The Grand Ultimate' so can Aikido be. I recognised something for me in Aikido, right from the start ... the almost insane concentration on perfection of technique that is lacking in most other arts. That is what I get out of Aikido and why I have never quit. For me, Aikido contains the grammar of movement. Aikido has never been for self-defence for me. It can be, but it takes years. For that - I have WingChun and various other stuff - I made my own little self-defence art in fact. Like, if someone attacks me ... this is what I will probably do kinda stuff. I did that in the 80s and still go through it from time to time - it is easy. I have kept my self-defence stuff separate to my Aikido ... most of the time. For me ... Aikido is just 'The Way of Aiki' ... learning how to manipulate my partner's energy. And there is no reason you could not take those ideas and use them in Judo or Jujutsu or wherever. That's it. But I know people who only do Aikido will likely never understand where I am coming from. I once learned Iaido from a guy who only did Iaido. He was fairly OK at it but his complete lack of knowledge of any martial art other than that severely hampered him. He was 100% a Mr Technical kinda guy and would explain everything in intricate detail and yet had no first-hand knowledge of anything he was talking about. Kinda like the guy who likes trains and builds comprehensive train-sets in his attic. He actually knows nothing about real trains, but could talk about them all day and to the uninitiated would be the great expert. Anyway, if you learn Aikido, what you learn helps you learn other arts easily ... but it seldom works the other way around (which should spark you a clue as to its value). So... if you are not prepared to wait for self-defence to mystically materialize, and it won't, you should stretch your wings a little and go broaden your experience. Or, if you are happy just to train Aikido, which is also great fun, just get on with it. This is all just common sense."

Rupert, +1, but I doubt people are listening,
Alec

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Old 12-28-2015, 09:28 AM   #10
Cliff Judge
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Re: Opinions on this please.

I am probably never going to train with this guy.
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Old 12-28-2015, 09:55 AM   #11
Michael Douglas
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Re: Opinions on this please.

Quotable gold ;
Quote:
Hilary Heinmets wrote: View Post
One has to realized that most of the practitioners of any martial art (or any discipline in general) are not particularly good at it.
(When they shot at Chuck Norris, the bullets dodged him ... true story, also happens in Russia.)
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Old 12-28-2015, 10:49 AM   #12
PeterR
 
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Re: Opinions on this please.

Quote:
Michael Douglas wrote: View Post
Quotable gold ;
(When they shot at Chuck Norris, the bullets dodged him ... true story, also happens in Russia.)
These stories (including the article) are always just for the peanut gallery.

Peter Rehse Shodokan Aikido
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Old 12-28-2015, 11:15 AM   #13
sorokod
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Re: Opinions on this please.

Quote:
Hilary Heinmets wrote: View Post
...One has to realized that most of the practitioners of any martial art (or any discipline in general) are not particularly good at it.
Yay normal distribution! Same goes for teachers

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Old 12-28-2015, 02:21 PM   #14
rugwithlegs
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Re: Opinions on this please.

Article is pure lazy straw man garbage. I would prefer to not feed the trolls. (pretty sure Gozo Shioda's security company and everyone he taught for the Tokyo Riot police experienced some resistance in real situations for one.)

But, we do have a wide ranging public image. We do have some practitioners who believe their Ki will throw people across the room, or that O Sensei could. We're not the only art, but we got this. We have several lineages that hate each other and will malign each other without any help from outside sources. John Stevens did translate a book from Shirata Rinjiro saying O Sensei could dodge bullets or become invisible and that O Sensei was considered a reincarnation of the Buddah by Shirata Sensei. Tohei created a system of energy healing. His mind and body coordination exercises quickly became associated with magical powers. Saotome wrote that a golden cloud entered his body and then he could tell where any attack was coming from.

1. So what? Does this stop your practice?
2. If we don't believe or care, when are we throwing out the baby with the bath water? What is real? for example imagery does affect my neurology and physiology as does my level of doubt which can translate into a strike with less or more power.
3. I have trained for 25 years. I am glad I did not invest 25 years with the average troll.
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Old 12-29-2015, 10:40 AM   #15
jonreading
 
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Re: Opinions on this please.

Couple of comments:
1. There are points in the article that are taken out of context and used to construct a false argument. Many martial art systems have outlying behavior that can shed a poor light on the art and Aikido is no exception. I am not a fan of lifting your art by criticizing others and MMA has a lot of great elements that separate it from other fighting arts.
2. This is not an isolated perspective of aikido. There are valid criticisms about aikido shared by our sister arts. These are real problems in aikido and I think something we [collectively] should be prepared to address. I am not sure this article is necessary for MMA readers since it is not historical or practical. But, I have also read any number of aikido articles that put down other arts, too.

While articles like this have always existed, I think we should understand that ignoring this perspective or diminishing the criticism is not going to change a perspective that aikido is not a fighting art. It is possible that we will never work out with someone who consumes this article (or wrote it). But it is also possible that we will never work out with someone because of this article.

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Old 12-29-2015, 11:19 AM   #16
Mary Eastland
 
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Re: Opinions on this please.

I could not waste a single second of my life reading more than the beginning of that article. My view is: Great, if you think that I can't defend myself. Gives me an advantage.

Like I have said before aikido is so much more than a fighting art (meaning sport fighting) ...it is self-defense and more.

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Old 12-29-2015, 03:46 PM   #17
lbb
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Re: Opinions on this please.

Quote:
Jon Reading wrote: View Post
These are real problems in aikido and I think something we [collectively] should be prepared to address.
"collectively"? Oh, come now.
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Old 12-30-2015, 09:05 AM   #18
jonreading
 
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Re: Opinions on this please.

Quote:
Mary Malmros wrote: View Post
"collectively"? Oh, come now.
I am not sure what this means. I think Peter hit the nail on the head, issues of competency are best met with face-to-face conversations that are unambiguous about what we do and why we do it. My implied "collective" is to include everyone in this. It is no different that expecting a level of competency within a technical curriculum, teaching standards, or other aspects of our training.

The rub of my comment is that maybe we aren't as competent to share what we do as we think we are. Maybe an good MMA girl can kick our ass. Who cares? We do. For all our "it's not about fighting", it's about fighting and having respect for what we do. There is plenty of room for someone to respect what we do but not be interested in doing it.

I have never found polarizing perspectives as a path to understanding. I think it is ridiculous that we'll spend time talking to wide-eyed newbies about aikido when they walk into a dojo, but we're adversarial towards people who practice other arts, even if they criticize us. MMA and other sport fight systems raise awareness of martial arts, discipline, good training and healthy exercise - that's good for all of us. Why wouldn't we want our sister arts to be more knowledgeable about why we do aikido?

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Old 12-30-2015, 09:39 AM   #19
Walter Martindale
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Re: Opinions on this please.

For a while, when I was training in Tokyo for judo, there was an elderly red/white belt would ask me to practice... Which meant he would do a bunch of tachiwaza, utter a loud kiai, and I would take ukemi. He did it with lots of us gai-jin. Could we have resisted? Oh, yes. Could we have thrown him? Oh, yes. Would I have stood a snowflake's chance in a volcano against him if he was, say, 40 years younger? I doubt it...

Would we have made it out of the dojo after beating up an old man in front of two or three university judo teams AND the Japanese national judo team? Probably not in one piece.

The "no touch" ukemi happening in the video attached to the article, with the ancient O-Sensei Ueshiba Morihei MAY just be a manifestation of respect shown to the old founder of the art when, following the demonstration by the founder, the people training would return to more realistic training... Would he have done "no contact" waza when he, himself, was 30 or so years younger? Not likely... Would people think it fake? not likely.
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Old 12-30-2015, 12:00 PM   #20
PeterR
 
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Re: Opinions on this please.

Sure and it doesn't help that the message some people took is that is the ideal.

Peter Rehse Shodokan Aikido
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Old 12-31-2015, 09:36 AM   #21
earnest aikidoka
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Re: Opinions on this please.

Quote:
Alec Corper wrote: View Post
"I have been doing Aikido since I left high school ... and am now 53. I agree with the article and recognised Aikido as part-fake almost straight away. Why? Because I did Judo before Aikido and Jujutsu alongside it. I also did Tomiki Aikido for ten years which is very practical. However, just as TaiChi is 'The Grand Ultimate' so can Aikido be. I recognised something for me in Aikido, right from the start ... the almost insane concentration on perfection of technique that is lacking in most other arts. That is what I get out of Aikido and why I have never quit. For me, Aikido contains the grammar of movement. Aikido has never been for self-defence for me. It can be, but it takes years. For that - I have WingChun and various other stuff - I made my own little self-defence art in fact. Like, if someone attacks me ... this is what I will probably do kinda stuff. I did that in the 80s and still go through it from time to time - it is easy. I have kept my self-defence stuff separate to my Aikido ... most of the time. For me ... Aikido is just 'The Way of Aiki' ... learning how to manipulate my partner's energy. And there is no reason you could not take those ideas and use them in Judo or Jujutsu or wherever. That's it. But I know people who only do Aikido will likely never understand where I am coming from. I once learned Iaido from a guy who only did Iaido. He was fairly OK at it but his complete lack of knowledge of any martial art other than that severely hampered him. He was 100% a Mr Technical kinda guy and would explain everything in intricate detail and yet had no first-hand knowledge of anything he was talking about. Kinda like the guy who likes trains and builds comprehensive train-sets in his attic. He actually knows nothing about real trains, but could talk about them all day and to the uninitiated would be the great expert. Anyway, if you learn Aikido, what you learn helps you learn other arts easily ... but it seldom works the other way around (which should spark you a clue as to its value). So... if you are not prepared to wait for self-defence to mystically materialize, and it won't, you should stretch your wings a little and go broaden your experience. Or, if you are happy just to train Aikido, which is also great fun, just get on with it. This is all just common sense."

Rupert, +1, but I doubt people are listening,
Alec
Agree with everything except that aikido does not have self-defence. Aikido is, in my opinion, as practical a combative form as any other martial art. Otherwise I am in agreement with you points.

Aikidoka today don't really grasp that a martial art is meant for combat, and try to train aikido like a form of expensive yoga, instead of a fully combative art. The problem is the focus of an aikidoka rather than the techniques itself.
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Old 12-31-2015, 09:43 AM   #22
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Re: Opinions on this please.

Quote:
Jon Reading wrote: View Post
I am not sure what this means. I think Peter hit the nail on the head, issues of competency are best met with face-to-face conversations that are unambiguous about what we do and why we do it. My implied "collective" is to include everyone in this. It is no different that expecting a level of competency within a technical curriculum, teaching standards, or other aspects of our training.

The rub of my comment is that maybe we aren't as competent to share what we do as we think we are. Maybe an good MMA girl can kick our ass. Who cares? We do. For all our "it's not about fighting", it's about fighting and having respect for what we do. There is plenty of room for someone to respect what we do but not be interested in doing it.

I have never found polarizing perspectives as a path to understanding. I think it is ridiculous that we'll spend time talking to wide-eyed newbies about aikido when they walk into a dojo, but we're adversarial towards people who practice other arts, even if they criticize us. MMA and other sport fight systems raise awareness of martial arts, discipline, good training and healthy exercise - that's good for all of us. Why wouldn't we want our sister arts to be more knowledgeable about why we do aikido?
Entirely agreed with what you say, But how do we spread aikido's worth to other people? Honestly, I think it is a bit weak that aikido isn't taken seriously, and aikidoka, me included, aren't able to defend our own martial art adequately.
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Old 12-31-2015, 10:16 AM   #23
PeterR
 
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Re: Opinions on this please.

Quote:
Hansel Wong wrote: View Post
Entirely agreed with what you say, But how do we spread aikido's worth to other people? Honestly, I think it is a bit weak that aikido isn't taken seriously, and aikidoka, me included, aren't able to defend our own martial art adequately.
Well we aren't an evangelical church. No need to spread anything.

Peter Rehse Shodokan Aikido
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Old 12-31-2015, 10:22 AM   #24
RonRagusa
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Re: Opinions on this please.

Quote:
Peter Rehse wrote: View Post
Well we aren't an evangelical church. No need to spread anything.
Amen.

Ron

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Old 12-31-2015, 11:56 AM   #25
kewms
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Re: Opinions on this please.

Quote:
Hansel Wong wrote: View Post
Entirely agreed with what you say, But how do we spread aikido's worth to other people? Honestly, I think it is a bit weak that aikido isn't taken seriously, and aikidoka, me included, aren't able to defend our own martial art adequately.
As someone upthread noted, failure to take me seriously gives me a tremendous advantage. Why give that up?

If you think something is missing in your training then sure, seek out people who can help you fix the gap.

But as far as the wider world goes, either someone will be open to what aikido (or, more accurately, a particular aikido dojo) offers, or they won't. People have different goals. People have different amounts of patience. No art is going to be all things to all people, but trying to be is a good way to lose what makes aikido unique.

I do think that it's silly to argue based on assumptions that aikido doesn't share. For example, MMA assumes a single, unarmed attacker in a competition situation that will have a clear "winner" and a clear "loser." Much as MMA people like to claim otherwise, none of those assumptions is accurate in a "street self-defense" situation, which has no referee, will often involve weapons, may involve multiple attackers, and in which "winning" means getting to go home uninjured and not worry about a visit from the police. Now, obviously there is room for argument about how well aikido handles that sort of situation, too, but I'd rather have *that* argument than fret about how well (or poorly) aikido does in the octagon. I don't get into board breaking competitions with karateka, either.

Katherine
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