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Old 12-10-2015, 01:38 AM   #51
Dave de Vos
 
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Re: The Ueshiba Legacy, by Mark Murray

Quote:
David Skaggs wrote: View Post
So what exactly is aiki?
The definition varies with the individual.
The same as what is ki?

dps
I'll give it a go (I also threw in jin, because I think it is a separate thing closely related to ki and aiki) :

ki = Tissue recruitment (muscle and connective tissue) guided by intent. Training for greater intent capacity and better body connection will increase ki capacity.

jin = Relaxed stability and power while standing and moving which results from dynamic whole body organization of muscles and connective tissue recruitment. In a martial context this is about recruiting postural muscles and connective tissue by means of intent to support whatever you are doing martially.

aiki = A modality of the above which is of particular importance in the aiki arts. It disturbs the stability and power of a person in physical contact with you. The better the aiki, the harder it is to detect the source of the disturbance, which makes it harder for the other person to resist the disturbance.
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Old 12-10-2015, 06:14 AM   #52
sorokod
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Re: The Ueshiba Legacy, by Mark Murray

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Christopher Li wrote: View Post
Since I've been mentioned, I'll make a brief comment. It's not an either/or - Bill Gleason (who is one of just a few people in the world who can really discuss what the Founder wrote with authority) summarized this quite nicely in the comment appended to Richard Moon's article available here.

Best,

Chris
Since I've been mentioned, I'll make a brief comment.

Your name is on the initial message of this thread as well as on the foreword to M Murray's piece, so this has happened a while ago.

It's not an either/or - Bill Gleason (who is one of just a few people in the world who can really discuss what the Founder wrote with authority) summarized this quite nicely in the comment appended to Richard Moon's article available here.

Well, Bill Gleason makes authoritative statements about the founder's Aikido and you make an authoritative statement about Bill Gleason - none supported by evidence.

I get a sense that following M Murray's classification, you would say that Bill Gleason is within "Morihei Ueshiba's legacy" and not "Modern Aikido" legacy. Given that Bill Gleason has never seen the founder and had Yamaguchi, a postwar student himself, as his main teacher, how did he manage that?

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Old 12-10-2015, 07:21 AM   #53
phitruong
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Re: The Ueshiba Legacy, by Mark Murray

Quote:
David Skaggs wrote: View Post
So what exactly is aiki?
The definition varies with the individual.
The same as what is ki?

dps
really!!!?? are we going to this again? didn't you have enough during the IP/aiki war a few years back where war raging across the aikiweb landscape worst than the chinese multi-kingdom war. where dogs hang with cats to conspire against the chickens. where street vendors sold real hot dogs. where it wasn't safe on aikiweb without a herd of bodyguards (wonder if there is sanityguard, sure you can guard the body, but what about the mind?) all armed to the teeth (well, not really teeth, because that would be hard to brush and floss, but at least to the keyboard). of course it was an exciting time, a terrible time, a great time, a bad time. an interesting time. "It was the best of times, it was the worst of times, it was the age of wisdom, it was the age of foolishness, it was the epoch of belief, it was the epoch of incredulity, it was the season of Light, it was the season of Darkness, it was the spring of hope, it was the winter of despair, we had everything before us, we had nothing before us, we were all going direct to Heaven, we were all going direct the other way -- in short, the period was so far like the present period, that some of its noisiest authorities insisted on its being received, for good or for evil, in the superlative degree of comparison only."

"budo is putting on cold, wet, sweat stained gi with a smile and a snarl" - your truly
http://charlotteaikikai.org
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Old 12-10-2015, 08:13 AM   #54
Chris Li
 
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Re: The Ueshiba Legacy, by Mark Murray

Quote:
David Soroko wrote: View Post
Since I've been mentioned, I'll make a brief comment.

Well, Bill Gleason makes authoritative statements about the founder's Aikido and you make an authoritative statement about Bill Gleason - none supported by evidence.

I get a sense that following M Murray's classification, you would say that Bill Gleason is within "Morihei Ueshiba's legacy" and not "Modern Aikido" legacy. Given that Bill Gleason has never seen the founder and had Yamaguchi, a postwar student himself, as his main teacher, how did he manage that?
I didn't, and will not, comment on Bill's Aikido - people are free to go feel him for themselves if they're interested. I was commenting on his scholarship, which was the pertinent point here. He's published a number of books on the subject of Morihei Ueshiba, if people are interested.

Best,

Chris

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Old 12-10-2015, 10:46 AM   #55
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Re: The Ueshiba Legacy, by Mark Murray

That's a lot of comments...

First, I don't consider spiral energy to be an exclusive possession of an art. For me, that is a general training more akin to cardiovascular exercise in athletics. It's not a question of technique, but conditioning so I don't see any conflict in cross-training. I think the argument changes once you start moving with spiral energy in form. It's interesting that Cliff brings up sword training, which I consider to be a mores solid illustration of a partial education in aikido (originating from elsewhere). But this is exactly how we differentiate our weapons training, i.e. " well, we're just practicing swinging a sword, not doing an art." See Ellis's article on weapons in aikido for more on that topic. I think we need to be respectful of what our sister arts do and how we keep clean lines a between the arts, but my instructor's sifu came to class often and even taught, occasionally.

Second, as Mary implied, this is my experience and my decisions to train. There are plenty of people who are happy to do whatever they want without regard to whether it works, or how it interacts with other arts or if it uses weapons or anything else. Aikido is a big tent. I find it interesting that we, as a community, much more readily accept the "beautiful movement" of someone dancing to bongo drums or waving a ribbon as an expression of aikido, neither of which there is any evidence of the founder doing, ever. Ever. Ever. So while we may say, "be free to train the way you want," I am not really sure the community wants that... We maybe really want others to train in a way that doesn't jeopardize our beliefs and imaginations. Earlier, Cliff mentioned that what I do is not what gets people in the door and I agree with that.

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Old 12-10-2015, 10:59 AM   #56
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Re: The Ueshiba Legacy, by Mark Murray

Quote:
Christopher Li wrote: View Post
I didn't, and will not, comment on Bill's Aikido - people are free to go feel him for themselves if they're interested. I was commenting on his scholarship, which was the pertinent point here. He's published a number of books on the subject of Morihei Ueshiba, if people are interested.

Best,

Chris
Me neither - I do want to understand the provenance of his opinions regarding the founder's Aikido. If (according to you) they are all down to his scholarship, so be it.

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Old 12-10-2015, 11:06 AM   #57
Chris Li
 
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Re: The Ueshiba Legacy, by Mark Murray

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David Soroko wrote: View Post
Me neither - I do want to understand the provenance of his opinions regarding the founder's Aikido. If (according to you) they are all down to his scholarship, so be it.
I didn't say that at all, and please try not to put words in my mouth.

I think that this will conclude my comments on the matter.

Best,

Chris

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Old 12-10-2015, 11:27 AM   #58
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Re: The Ueshiba Legacy, by Mark Murray

Quote:
Jon Reading wrote: View Post
First, I don't consider spiral energy to be an exclusive possession of an art. For me, that is a general training more akin to cardiovascular exercise in athletics. It's not a question of technique, but conditioning so I don't see any conflict in cross-training. I think the argument changes once you start moving with spiral energy in form.
I don't think spiral energy is the exclusive possession of any particular art either.

But then in the next sentence you say spiral energy is training? That sounds strange, its like saying you go to a gas station and fill your tank with horsepower. There would be a training method that is used to develop a person's ability to use spiral energy. Perhaps more than one, for example the Japanese arts would do this through paired kata training, Chinese arts might use solo training and dynamic paired drills.

You and I disagree on whether aiki is a skill, or an effect created through the exercise of skill that is best given a different name. If you are also confusing a skill with a training method for developing that skill, we're all over the place. How are we going to count the angels, man??

I don't think the spiral energy is Osensei's legacy. I think you would agree based on earlier things you said here. But if there is a specific training method that is Osensei's legacy, I am pretty sure that ship has sailed. So where does this leave us?

Quote:
I find it interesting that we, as a community, much more readily accept the "beautiful movement" of someone dancing to bongo drums or waving a ribbon as an expression of aikido, neither of which there is any evidence of the founder doing, ever. Ever. Ever.
Didn't Osensei give some dancer a tenth dan or something?
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Old 12-10-2015, 01:05 PM   #59
Bernd Lehnen
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Re: The Ueshiba Legacy, by Mark Murray

Quote:
Jon Reading wrote: View Post
That's a lot of comments...

First, I don't consider spiral energy to be an exclusive possession of an art. For me, that is a general training more akin to cardiovascular exercise in athletics. It's not a question of technique, but conditioning so I don't see any conflict in cross-training. I think the argument changes once you start moving with spiral energy in form. It's interesting that Cliff brings up sword training, which I consider to be a mores solid illustration of a partial education in aikido (originating from elsewhere). But this is exactly how we differentiate our weapons training, i.e. " well, we're just practicing swinging a sword, not doing an art." See Ellis's article on weapons in aikido for more on that topic. I think we need to be respectful of what our sister arts do and how we keep clean lines a between the arts, but my instructor's sifu came to class often and even taught, occasionally.

Second, as Mary implied, this is my experience and my decisions to train. There are plenty of people who are happy to do whatever they want without regard to whether it works, or how it interacts with other arts or if it uses weapons or anything else. Aikido is a big tent. I find it interesting that we, as a community, much more readily accept the "beautiful movement" of someone dancing to bongo drums or waving a ribbon as an expression of aikido, neither of which there is any evidence of the founder doing, ever. Ever. Ever. So while we may say, "be free to train the way you want," I am not really sure the community wants that... We maybe really want others to train in a way that doesn't jeopardize our beliefs and imaginations. Earlier, Cliff mentioned that what I do is not what gets people in the door and I agree with that.
Good post Jon.
The rub is that someone who doesn't share your personal experience simply can't know what he doesn't know. Even an open mind usually can only rely on his admittedly otherwise deep and vast knowledge.

Thus, words can only go so far as definitions, context and experienced knowledge overlap.

Think of the difficulties, a proponent of a more genuine traditional way of yoga may well encounter in a discussion with a longtime proponent of modern yoga who may maintain that everything yoga has to offer is contained in the asanas.

In the same venue, I also doubt, that the many here really get what Ellis Amdur has been trying to convey so eloquently, although they may be convinced they do.

Of course, there's always a chance that a practical mind might come and ask to show him and let him feel what you can do. This, certainly, would be more helpful than to try and bridge the gap with words only.

Best,
Bernd
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Old 12-10-2015, 01:57 PM   #60
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Re: The Ueshiba Legacy, by Mark Murray

Quote:
Cliff Judge wrote: View Post
Didn't Osensei give some dancer a tenth dan or something?
This isn't even funny. Well, maybe a little...

Quote:
Cliff Judge wrote: View Post
I don't think spiral energy is the exclusive possession of any particular art either.

But then in the next sentence you say spiral energy is training? That sounds strange, its like saying you go to a gas station and fill your tank with horsepower. There would be a training method that is used to develop a person's ability to use spiral energy. Perhaps more than one, for example the Japanese arts would do this through paired kata training, Chinese arts might use solo training and dynamic paired drills.

You and I disagree on whether aiki is a skill, or an effect created through the exercise of skill that is best given a different name. If you are also confusing a skill with a training method for developing that skill, we're all over the place. How are we going to count the angels, man??
I think you are putting words in my mouth and I want to be careful about what I say. My actual post was:
Quote:
I think the argument changes once you start moving with spiral energy in form.
Spiral energy and moving with spiral energy are not the same. Specifically, many different arts have figured out how to move with spiral energy, aikido is just one of those arts. My differentiation is to be respectful of maintaining the movement within each art. Aikido movement is unique to aikido and it's important to recognize that distinction from, say, Bagua.

Running is both a technique and incorporated into training methodology. I learned both a technique of running (a specific mechanic that drives my legs) and I used running withing a training methodology to strengthen my cardiovascular muscles and my legs muscles. I think that training methodologies are intended to impart conditioning, but you gotta know what you're doing, first. If you don't know what spiral energy is, there is no way you're ever gonna move with spiral energy - the best you'll muster is mimicking someone's movement in which you believe spiral movement exists.

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Old 12-10-2015, 03:21 PM   #61
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Re: The Ueshiba Legacy, by Mark Murray

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Christopher Li wrote: View Post
New blog post! The Ueshiba Legacy, by Mark Murray - "There are two Ueshiba Legacies. The legacy of Morihei Ueshiba and the legacy of Kisshomaru Ueshiba. The two are completely different. Their paths rarely cross, with only a smattering of commonalities."

Enjoy!

Chris
In an effort to get back on track - I don't think attempting to define words that no one agrees on the definition of really speaks to the legacy of these two men - is there a legacy of the third Doshu? The separation of the Iwama style did not happen under Kisshomaru Doshu. YouTube and social media - does this influence Aikido now, or has the current Doshu influenced Aikido's image through this? While the article separates Aikido under Morihei Ueshiba and Kisshomaru Ueshiba, can it be said that there is a legacy developing under the current Doshu? A direction for the 4th Doshu to take?
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Old 12-10-2015, 10:37 PM   #62
oisin bourke
 
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Re: The Ueshiba Legacy, by Mark Murray

Quote:
John Hillson wrote: View Post
In an effort to get back on track - I don't think attempting to define words that no one agrees on the definition of really speaks to the legacy of these two men - is there a legacy of the third Doshu? The separation of the Iwama style did not happen under Kisshomaru Doshu. YouTube and social media - does this influence Aikido now, or has the current Doshu influenced Aikido's image through this? While the article separates Aikido under Morihei Ueshiba and Kisshomaru Ueshiba, can it be said that there is a legacy developing under the current Doshu? A direction for the 4th Doshu to take?
I was never a member of any aikido organisation during my time in Japan, but following the books and other media put out by the aikikai and Moriteru Ueshiba, I got a definite impression that it/he was trying to standardise an orthodox "aikikai" style and set of techniques. This also is paralleled in many other large budo organisations such as jodo, iai, etc. There are simplified "standard" forms that can be taught and administered nationally. Conversely, there was less tolerance for variations among affiliated groups. I think this can be explained by the major social and demographic changes occurring in Japan (a dwindling, aging, increasingly conservative populace and an attempt to "shore up" a viable number of students). As for the international dimension, once again, as an outsider, it seems that if an aikido group is large enough, it's possible to affiliate to the aikikai, almost regardless of style/technique. So, while the Japan system is becoming more standardised, the international one is encompassing groups that are for all intents and purposes, different arts.

All IMO.
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Old 12-11-2015, 01:10 PM   #63
Fred Little
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Re: The Ueshiba Legacy, by Mark Murray

Quote:
Christopher Li wrote: View Post
I didn't, and will not, comment on Bill's Aikido - people are free to go feel him for themselves if they're interested. I was commenting on his scholarship, which was the pertinent point here. He's published a number of books on the subject of Morihei Ueshiba, if people are interested.

Best,

Chris
Chris,

Though interesting presentations of a particular set of beliefs and practices, neither work exhibits the sort of attention to sources or willingness to take an even moderately critical view of the material addressed normally associated with "scholarship," nor does it seem to me that either work presents itself as "scholarly."

Not all scholarship is published and not all published scholarship is of value. Not all published work is scholarship. If people find the work useful, that is really enough. Any more is gilding the lily.

Particularly given the endemic patterns of inflated claims made by and on behalf of various senior figures in the aikido world past and present, (as well as inflated claims made by and on behalf of their critics referenced in this thread),, not to mention the more particular (and thankfully long past) history of inflated claims with regard to the relationship of his aikiken practice and the kenjutsu of the Kashima Shin-Ryu, I don't think you're doing him any favors by misrepresenting (however inadvertently) the character of his published work.

Best,

Fred Little

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Old 12-11-2015, 01:43 PM   #64
Erick Mead
 
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Re: The Ueshiba Legacy, by Mark Murray

Quote:
Jon Reading wrote: View Post
Spiral energy and moving with spiral energy are not the same. Specifically, many different arts have figured out how to move with spiral energy, aikido is just one of those arts. ...
If you don't know what spiral energy is, there is no way you're ever gonna move with spiral energy - the best you'll muster is mimicking someone's movement in which you believe spiral movement exists.
Potential energy in spiral form is torsional shear stress, the energy released in spiral momentum is what makes breaking waves and tornados fantastically powerful.

The human structure, like most structures, is weakest in torque. The body therefore is especially sensitive and reactive to spiral stresses especially those that have high impulse. For the geeks among you -- impulse is the rate of change of acceleration. i,e. -- the rate of change of the rate of change of velocity (2d derivative). This does not mean that you bring the slide rule or porta-Cray in place of the bokken onto the mat. It does mean that the reflexive systems of the body respond supercritically to these things -- and well in advance of conscious awareness of them, much less within reach of effective directly calculated or planned reaction. Hence, I am respectfully critical of the image of "intent" as a too-ambiguous training concept -- at least in this "planned action" sense.

"Intent," though, in terms of sensitivity toward ATTENTION and the proper shapes -- physical and temporal -- this I can support. It is one thing to increase sensitivity and attention to your disposition with the breaking of the wave you mean to surf -- it is quite another to think that you can surf that wave from any point of its break based on merely your carefully honed "intent" to do so. Things are far more critical than any possibility of that happening, and the window of advantage for the correct intent is exceedingly narrow, and is not at all divorced from the objective position and dynamics of your situation

The physical shape of spiral energy lies in dual-opposed right angle spirals of simultaneous tension and compression (torsional shear). The temporal shape or phase is also a 90-degree relationship, and this shape of phase interaction creates a physical resonance between periodic oscillators -- hint:: standing upright, you are one. Funetori is -- in part -- designed to point this reality out to you.

In phase, they match peak to peak, valley to valley. Peak to valley is 180 degree destructive interference where each neutralizes the other. 90 degrees is where the peak of one coinicides with the zero point of the other -- where there is literally no dynamic for the applied force to resist.

Sensitivity to impulse can occur at very tiny objective force levels particularly where the forces change direction. Small oscillations -- which are constant cycling changes of direction -- even subliminal ones on "normal" tone in the body -- can become triggers for destructive reflexive action on the part of the target. When their physical shape, AND their temporal shape coincide, the body's sensitivity to the impulse changes is maximized -- and because its vulnerability is maximally exposed -- its reflexivity is also maximally dominant over conscious overriding. When tuned and applied in this manner -- nikkyo and sankyo stand as illustrations the waza provide of the resulting manipulations, respectively, they are the cruder forms of aiki-sage and aiki-age -- and this is their teaching purpose.

All the aiki taiso are engaged in these forms of action and sensitization of our own bodies. These, where they are found and applied with the correct "intent," become the rejuvenating seeds of the legacy we are speaking of, IMO. And sensitization -- not just trying to increase possibilities of resistance to the manipulation -- are integral parts of the goal. Reflexively led reaction to incipient physical action becomes second nature and is, in military terminology WAY ahead of an attackers OODA loop.

There may be people who school themselves in increased resistance to breaking waves -- but I am thinking they have not surfed the North Shore or Kaena point in winter. (Me personally, Makaha on a western swell was more than I needed to learn this particular lesson.)

Last edited by Erick Mead : 12-11-2015 at 01:48 PM.

Cordially,

Erick Mead
一隻狗可久里馬房但他也不是馬的.
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Old 12-11-2015, 02:57 PM   #65
dps
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Re: The Ueshiba Legacy, by Mark Murray

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Erick Mead wrote: View Post
This does not mean that you bring the slide rule or porta-Cray in place of the bokken onto the mat.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=waiprjueVpQ

Just slap a handle on it to make it portable.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x_rTDLijA_0

dps
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Old 12-12-2015, 05:36 AM   #66
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Re: The Ueshiba Legacy, by Mark Murray

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Christopher Li wrote: View Post
New blog post! The Ueshiba Legacy, by Mark Murray - "There are two Ueshiba Legacies. The legacy of Morihei Ueshiba and the legacy of Kisshomaru Ueshiba. The two are completely different. Their paths rarely cross, with only a smattering of commonalities."

Enjoy!

Chris
The Transmission, Inheritance, Emulation series looks at some of these topics. Column 10, "Iemoto and Iwama " provides some background on the split between the Ueshibas.

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Old 12-14-2015, 01:27 AM   #67
dps
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Re: The Ueshiba Legacy, by Mark Murray

"However, one cannot make any inference from the move to Iwama that in 1942 Morihei Ueshiba and Kisshomaru had a different focus and were already pursuing different goals."

Transmission, Inheritance, Emulation 10
by Peter Goldsbury
09-12-2008

http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/showthread.php?t=15066
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Old 12-14-2015, 01:22 PM   #68
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Re: The Ueshiba Legacy, by Mark Murray

Quote:
David Skaggs wrote: View Post
"However, one cannot make any inference from the move to Iwama that in 1942 Morihei Ueshiba and Kisshomaru had a different focus and were already pursuing different goals."

Transmission, Inheritance, Emulation 10
by Peter Goldsbury
09-12-2008

http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/showthread.php?t=15066
For any inference in this respect, you'd probably have to go back to the time, when Kisshomaru in his childhood with the whole family had to endure the, mildly expressed, somewhat egotistically erratic life-style of his father.
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Old 03-13-2016, 10:08 AM   #69
Chris Li
 
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Re: The Ueshiba Legacy, by Mark Murray

Now available in Romanian, courtesy of Aikido Jurnal. The original English version is available on the Aikido Sangenkai blog.

Best,

Chris

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