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Old 11-09-2015, 10:17 AM   #76
jonreading
 
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Re: Divergent Views on Doing Ikkyo

Quote:
Cliff Judge wrote: View Post
They definitely look pretty comfy.
I am not sure to what this refers. The idea that crossing hands with Chen Xiaowang is "comfy" is probably laughably untrue. He is considered by many to be one of the best representations of Chinese internal power and skill. I am not sure this looks any different than any number of our exercises performed in a demonstration setting.

Not to drift the thread, but only to point out that we maybe don't know ikkyo outside our kata. Having had this type of ikkyo applied to me, scary is an appropriate word.

Last edited by jonreading : 11-09-2015 at 10:27 AM.

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Old 11-09-2015, 10:20 AM   #77
Demetrio Cereijo
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Re: Divergent Views on Doing Ikkyo

Quote:
Jon Reading wrote: View Post
we maybe don't know enough about ikkyo to know what it looks like outside our kata.
Maybe?
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Old 11-09-2015, 10:33 AM   #78
rugwithlegs
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Re: Divergent Views on Doing Ikkyo

I have a small background in the Chinese arts.

The armbar is similar to a basic Ikkyo. I like the push hands practices because there is a definite sense of wanting to feel if the lock is there or not. The one partner is not already committed to falling no matter what, the other is not locked into the same technique regardless of the movement. At least, in theory - some are just doing a circle regardless.

What I do appreciate is that they do break down variations in terms of "energies." In Baguazhang, the Heaven Palm expands outward, while the Earth Palm coils and receives, the Fire Yin Palm sharply pulses straight down, etc. in Taiji, Roll Back or Pull Down can both become arm bars. Really, what looks like a punch can be locking an arm to control the spine and/or break the elbow simultaneously. Taiji talks about 13 separate energies represented by the 8 rig Rams and the five elements, which are usually combined. Xinyiquan has a different five element theory, and also a bunch of animals of which the numbers have changed over time. As crazy and esoteric as it sounds, their language is useful in this regard. I don't know the Japanese terms for such differences.

So, let's restrict the idea to an arm bar with the elbow on top anyway. No, that's not all Ikkyo is.

One of the original variations mentioned I believe was that some don't grab the elbow with the hand but use the forearm instead. Try a Tanto Nage version with the elbow hand holding a knife or something (I bring old cell phones or teddy bears to class). I need to use my forearm to control the elbow. Put the knife in my other hand, and I use the top of my thigh on that side to pin the arm.
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Old 11-10-2015, 02:11 AM   #79
Star Dragon
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Re: Divergent Views on Doing Ikkyo

Quote:
John Hillson wrote: View Post
I have a small background in the Chinese arts.

The armbar is similar to a basic Ikkyo. I like the push hands practices because there is a definite sense of wanting to feel if the lock is there or not. The one partner is not already committed to falling no matter what, the other is not locked into the same technique regardless of the movement. At least, in theory - some are just doing a circle regardless.

What I do appreciate is that they do break down variations in terms of "energies." In Baguazhang, the Heaven Palm expands outward, while the Earth Palm coils and receives, the Fire Yin Palm sharply pulses straight down, etc. in Taiji, Roll Back or Pull Down can both become arm bars. Really, what looks like a punch can be locking an arm to control the spine and/or break the elbow simultaneously. Taiji talks about 13 separate energies represented by the 8 rig Rams and the five elements, which are usually combined. Xinyiquan has a different five element theory, and also a bunch of animals of which the numbers have changed over time. As crazy and esoteric as it sounds, their language is useful in this regard. I don't know the Japanese terms for such differences.
In double push hands (as taught by Erle Montaigue), there is actually an armbar (version "forearm on elbow") implied every time one of the partners is doing the active or pushing part. But it happens in such a hidden and flowing manner that it's hard to discern.

An explicit ikkyo type of move can occur when one of the partners senses an opening in the other one's movement, as can be seen on this video from 4:45 on:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CJpYt0a5D3Q

Quote:
So, let's restrict the idea to an arm bar with the elbow on top anyway. No, that's not all Ikkyo is.

One of the original variations mentioned I believe was that some don't grab the elbow with the hand but use the forearm instead. Try a Tanto Nage version with the elbow hand holding a knife or something (I bring old cell phones or teddy bears to class). I need to use my forearm to control the elbow. Put the knife in my other hand, and I use the top of my thigh on that side to pin the arm.
By Tanto Nage, do you mean something like this?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iEZP...ature=youtu.be
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Old 11-10-2015, 06:54 AM   #80
rugwithlegs
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Re: Divergent Views on Doing Ikkyo

By Tanto Nage, do you mean something like this?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iEZP...ature=youtu.be[/quote]

Yes. It's a practice that seems to be mostly Tomiki/Shodokan Aikido, but the second doshu did reference this as a practice. They are not doing Ikkyo the way I prefer to. Any time with tegatana can be spent holding a tool, especially when we're not using our fingers to control Uke. At least, how I've come to approach it.

http://john-hillson.blogspot.com/201...anto-nage.html

Last edited by rugwithlegs : 11-10-2015 at 06:56 AM. Reason: Additional link.
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Old 11-10-2015, 10:56 AM   #81
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Re: Divergent Views on Doing Ikkyo

Interesting. Thank you for posting. -- Katherine
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Old 11-10-2015, 12:57 PM   #82
Star Dragon
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Re: Divergent Views on Doing Ikkyo

One practitioner who looks with critical eyes at what is common practice in many dojos is Stanley Pranin. Here he is talking about how to make katate dori ikkyo functional:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CQbksdv7KIs
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Old 11-11-2015, 04:31 PM   #83
phitruong
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Re: Divergent Views on Doing Ikkyo

Quote:
Jon Reading wrote: View Post
Also, a core mechanic in this video is that the arm control is crossing the centerline and breaking the elbow/back connection. Chicken-winging, as it were. The aikido shape tends to break the elbow/back connection with a vertical move, but it can be broke down in a variety of ways.
i see your video and raise you another https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ynnjx8wY1n0
i liked the kick to the leg. i liked WHJ, at the very least he skipped the silk pajamas. Saotome sensei did similar thing right after he mentioned that aikido folks don't know how to use legs. wouldn't want to get hit by either one. would make for a very bad day.

"budo is putting on cold, wet, sweat stained gi with a smile and a snarl" - your truly
http://charlotteaikikai.org
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Old 11-13-2015, 06:23 PM   #84
JP3
 
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Re: Divergent Views on Doing Ikkyo

My comment is regarding: ..."actually endangers tori as there would be plenty of opportunity for uke to hit tori meanwhile."

If by the push up over the head, one keeps the elbow directly above (vertical) above the wrist, uke's movement naturally turns the shoulder girdle to face away from tori.... it's very difficult, very painful if not impossible to do without injury, to strike with the other side hand at tori while the arm/wrist/hand iis held this way,.

And... I'd say that ikkyo isn't an "armbar," at all, really. But that's probably just me.

I find it interesting that the kanji character for kuzushi illustrates a mountain falling on a house.
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Old 11-14-2015, 02:01 PM   #85
Michael Douglas
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Re: Divergent Views on Doing Ikkyo

This ;
Quote:
John Powell wrote: View Post
And... I'd say that ikkyo isn't an "armbar," at all, really. But that's probably just me.
I'm sure the majority would agree on that,
it's been said already.
(Also ... Ikkyo is an attack in the first incarnation by Ueshiba ... right?)
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Old 11-14-2015, 02:29 PM   #86
Cliff Judge
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Re: Divergent Views on Doing Ikkyo

Quote:
Michael Douglas wrote: View Post
This ;

I'm sure the majority would agree on that,
it's been said already.
(Also ... Ikkyo is an attack in the first incarnation by Ueshiba ... right?)
It's an attack in all incarnations that are done properly.
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Old 11-15-2015, 04:19 AM   #87
Cromwell
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Re: Divergent Views on Doing Ikkyo

One hand on the wrist and the other on the elbow.

The rest is how you got the arm in the first place.

Ikyo easy to get...a life time to master.
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Old 11-15-2015, 06:11 AM   #88
Cromwell
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Re: Divergent Views on Doing Ikkyo

Another one for ikyo. Cut from the top yet only grab low.

Always Good Aikido
Technique, Psychology and Strategy

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http://www.northsydneyaikido.com.au//
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