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Old 11-04-2015, 03:49 PM   #26
Star Dragon
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Re: Divergent Views on Doing Ikkyo

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Cliff Judge wrote: View Post
There are some technical aspects shared by Aikido's ikkyo and really a whole bunch of different Daito ryu kata in the Hiden Mokuroku, they aren't all in the Ikkajo set.

I firmly believe ikkyo is derived from Daito ryu's first kata, Ippon Dori.

Here is what Ippon Dori is all about.

The "metaplot" of this kata is that you are being attacked by a guy who has his sword out, and he means to cut you straight in half. You enter as he lifts his sword and take his balance as you touch him. You need to be early enough that you aren't pushing uke back up - if you are late, you do the ura version.

You don't need to keep the aiki on as you take uke down - if you get uke in the right spot with timing / kiai / chutzpah, then its your fault if they get enough room to maneuver out of the pin. But, I think Aikido's ikkyo evolved out of explorations of how to keep the aiki connection the entire time.

Though I think the original kata - at least the way we do it in the main school - really is hugely valuable in terms of teaching how to GET IN THERE before that sword comes down. I guess that principle is generally subsumed under the study of "irimi" in Aikido. Its very "this is the most important principle of the art and you are shown it in the very first kata"-ish.

(And fwiw, Saotome Sensei has said that "ikkyo means first movement." That implies that the entry is the most important thing in ikkyo, as it is in ippon dori.)

People don't tend to perform shomenuchi like they are really trying to cut you in half among the people I do Aikido with, its more like a kendo cut what we do. So you can't get in before the strike starts to come down, because it never went up high enough, and if you try to get in physically its clashy / impactful and doesn't result in a good Aikido technique. BUT - training ippon dori teaches you to enter "energetically" as Ledyard Sensei might say, and that can really change the way you do ikkyo.
I would say, intercepting a raised arm the way your typical shomen-uchi ikkyo requires is not likely to happen in a realistic attack. Entering "energetically" - that sounds interesting, however.

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P.S. When practicing Ippon Dori I have found that the sweet spot where you snag uke is on the "ikkyo curve" that has been mentioned in this thread.
Could you elaborate on this, please?
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Old 11-04-2015, 04:04 PM   #27
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Re: Divergent Views on Doing Ikkyo

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Phi Truong wrote: View Post
nope! not ikkyo! that's taiji! a bunch of aikido heathens! they wore silk pajamas to a fight! didn't even have the decency to put on a skirt! come one, eveyone in aikido knows that you can't do effective ikkyo without a skirt.

here is another aikido heathen who even suggested to do ikkyo on the way down https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7Ba6NShe6ak (start around 19m or so). although he didn't tell you the secret of his approach, that in order for it to work, you have to sing "all about that bass" while performing the technique. don't take my words for it. try it out and put the video on youtube.

you know that ikkyo curve(s) also run along the hip bones?
Interesting video. I will watch this in full when I find the time.
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Old 11-04-2015, 04:17 PM   #28
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Re: Divergent Views on Doing Ikkyo

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Rupert Atkinson wrote: View Post
For me, I like to think that the aim is to do an arm bar or arm lock. Actually, waki-gatame is one of my favourite waza. But, uke does not allow that. He bends his elbow slightly - but not in a stiff way, rather in a sort of squidgy soft bendable way - to protect himself. Then, to deal with that, we, as tori, have to roll his elbow over and voila, the ikkyo shape appears. I always think in practical terms. If someone gives me a soft arm I just lock it out straight away and take advantage (while telling them to maintain it in a more undendable squidgy way next time). Further, more for self-defence, if ikkyo fails due to excessive resistance or my bad technique, I slip past and enter waki-gatame which works great against resistance, they hit the floor, and then I proceed with ikkyo ... only because someone told me to do ikkyo ... Again, for me practicallity must always coexist or linger hidden alongside Aikido perfection.
Rupert I like this. My approach is almost directly opposite to this in that I teach waki as a variation of oshitaoshi. Where the latter attacks close to the center, waki moves away. But your locking/unlocking arm idea is something I can use. Waki is my second favourite technique - ushiro my first.

Peter Rehse Shodokan Aikido
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Old 11-04-2015, 04:23 PM   #29
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Re: Divergent Views on Doing Ikkyo

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Katherine Derbyshire wrote: View Post
Suggest you find your first opportunity to get on the mat with Gleason Sensei, and take it. Until then, suggest you refrain from commenting about his technique.

Katherine
My purpose here is not to critisize any individual practitioners but to openly discuss different ways of doing the technique. Of course, you are free to question my conclusions, just like I question much of Aikido as commonly taught regarding its practicality. Not applying a proper arm bar with ikkyo belongs into that category.
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Old 11-04-2015, 04:32 PM   #30
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Re: Divergent Views on Doing Ikkyo

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Rupert Atkinson wrote: View Post
For me, I like to think that the aim is to do an arm bar or arm lock.
Thanks. Nice to hear somebody agree with me on this.

Quote:
Actually, waki-gatame is one of my favourite waza. But, uke does not allow that. He bends his elbow slightly - but not in a stiff way, rather in a sort of squidgy soft bendable way - to protect himself. Then, to deal with that, we, as tori, have to roll his elbow over and voila, the ikkyo shape appears. I always think in practical terms. If someone gives me a soft arm I just lock it out straight away and take advantage (while telling them to maintain it in a more undendable squidgy way next time). Further, more for self-defence, if ikkyo fails due to excessive resistance or my bad technique, I slip past and enter waki-gatame which works great against resistance, they hit the floor, and then I proceed with ikkyo ... only because someone told me to do ikkyo ... Again, for me practicallity must always coexist or linger hidden alongside Aikido perfection.
Otherwise those who claim that by Aikido you can't fight your way out of a wet paper bag must be right.
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Old 11-04-2015, 04:57 PM   #31
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Re: Divergent Views on Doing Ikkyo

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Patrick Buchbinder wrote: View Post
My purpose here is not to critisize any individual practitioners but to openly discuss different ways of doing the technique. Of course, you are free to question my conclusions, just like I question much of Aikido as commonly taught regarding its practicality. Not applying a proper arm bar with ikkyo belongs into that category.
As others in this thread have repeatedly noted, it's not accurate to consider ikkyo as exclusively an armbar technique. When a well-respected teacher performs the technique in a way that appears ineffective to you, that might be an excellent opportunity to expand your understanding.

With regard to Gleason Sensei specifically, I have to admit to being biased. I trained at his dojo for many years, and have worked with the specific partner shown in this video many times. Let's just say that your claim that he is "in trouble" in this video reflects a profound ignorance of what is actually going on.

Katherine
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Old 11-04-2015, 05:26 PM   #32
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Re: Divergent Views on Doing Ikkyo

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Patrick Buchbinder wrote: View Post
I have seen armbars accomplished in no time using Triple Heater 10, 11 and 12, specifically.
I'm not saying that it is not possible to control people with an armbar. Just that aikido's ikkyo is not a very good armbar. To quote Bill Gleason - "Aikido without aiki is just bad jujustu." If you are going to learn jujutsu, surely you would want it to be good jujutsu, and I don't think aikido really meets that requirement.
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Old 11-04-2015, 06:55 PM   #33
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Re: Divergent Views on Doing Ikkyo

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Patrick Buchbinder wrote: View Post
I would say, intercepting a raised arm the way your typical shomen-uchi ikkyo requires is not likely to happen in a realistic attack. Entering "energetically" - that sounds interesting, however.
In terms of the classical Japanese model that Daito ryu is built on, that's entirely irrelevant. The question is whether its a good kata - does it continue to provide deeper challenges over years of practice, and does it install general skills that can be accessed in many different scenarios without thought. YMMV when it comes to Aikido on the other hand.
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Old 11-05-2015, 02:04 AM   #34
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Re: Divergent Views on Doing Ikkyo

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Katherine Derbyshire wrote: View Post
As others in this thread have repeatedly noted, it's not accurate to consider ikkyo as exclusively an armbar technique. When a well-respected teacher performs the technique in a way that appears ineffective to you, that might be an excellent opportunity to expand your understanding.

With regard to Gleason Sensei specifically, I have to admit to being biased. I trained at his dojo for many years, and have worked with the specific partner shown in this video many times. Let's just say that your claim that he is "in trouble" in this video reflects a profound ignorance of what is actually going on.

Katherine
I said I think he would be in trouble if the uke was non-compliant. This is certainly not due to a lack of skill on Gleason's part, rather to how he chooses to apply his skill. His aim here seems to be different from mine, which is to neutralize the threat that the opponent poses as quickly and effectively as possible. Like many an Aikido practitioners, Gleason appears to emphasize "playing" with motion. So he transitions from ikkyo to kote-gaeshi without real necessity. While teaching this, I would emphasize that it is recommendable only under certain special circumstances, mostly if the uke manages to get out of the original arm lock. Okay, that's also a way to counteract the lack of control that I supposedly observed, but it is a wasted and risky motion from a martial perspective.
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Old 11-05-2015, 02:20 AM   #35
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Re: Divergent Views on Doing Ikkyo

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Robin Boyd wrote: View Post
I'm not saying that it is not possible to control people with an armbar. Just that aikido's ikkyo is not a very good armbar. To quote Bill Gleason - "Aikido without aiki is just bad jujustu." If you are going to learn jujutsu, surely you would want it to be good jujutsu, and I don't think aikido really meets that requirement.
I am not surprised that Gleason Sensei said this. And rather than taking the aiki out of ikkyo, I am interested in applying it to its full potential as to enhance the technique. The result should be the same as when using this technique in the Ju-jutsu fashion, but it should be achieved with less resistance and effort.

If ikkyo is not a good armbar, what is it? Just a way to unbalance the opponent? To what end?

And isn't there a thing called Aiki-(ju-)jutsu?
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Old 11-05-2015, 02:59 AM   #36
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Re: Divergent Views on Doing Ikkyo

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Cliff Judge wrote: View Post
In terms of the classical Japanese model that Daito ryu is built on, that's entirely irrelevant. The question is whether its a good kata - does it continue to provide deeper challenges over years of practice, and does it install general skills that can be accessed in many different scenarios without thought.
Well, I can see that even the most flowery techniques will help improve things like alignment, balance, fluidity of motion etc. Alas, they ingrain methods that would be suicidal in a martial sense at the same time - and you fight the way you train.

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YMMV when it comes to Aikido on the other hand.
If anything, Daito-ryu should have the more sound methods - martially speaking.
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Old 11-05-2015, 03:35 AM   #37
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Re: Divergent Views on Doing Ikkyo

I should add, I really like and do all the fluffy versions and try to add aiki to what I do, but at any and every point in any technique, not only ikkyo, lurking behind should be latent power, either soft or hard, preferably soft, in reserve.

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Old 11-05-2015, 08:49 AM   #38
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Re: Divergent Views on Doing Ikkyo

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Patrick Buchbinder wrote: View Post
I am not surprised that Gleason Sensei said this. And rather than taking the aiki out of ikkyo, I am interested in applying it to its full potential as to enhance the technique. The result should be the same as when using this technique in the Ju-jutsu fashion, but it should be achieved with less resistance and effort.

If ikkyo is not a good armbar, what is it? Just a way to unbalance the opponent? To what end?

And isn't there a thing called Aiki-(ju-)jutsu?
As an introspective questions, what do you think good jujutsu is? Or good judo? Techniques from these arts are also soft and powerful. Heck, one of judo's matra's is maximum efficiency with minimum effort. Good jujutsu is nothing to sneeze at, nor good karate, judo, etc. They all have armbars, too. So what makes ikkyo different?

As something of an elaboration to my earlier comment, aiki is what makes us different. Why is ikkyo not just an armbar (ikkajo)? Because we don't limit it to being an armbar. Rupert brought up a good point that I think we sometimes miss in our ikkyo - if uke does not defend the arm, we isolate it and apply an armbar. If uke defends the arm, our techniques moves through the arm and into the body. The scenario should be that uke is not presented with an opportunity to escape regardless of what she does. To put terms on other arts, the movement improves our position regardless of aite's response.

Aiki is what unbalances our partner. Kuzushi on contact and all that. Victory in an instant, blah blah blah. Ikkyo is not just an arm bar because it has aiki. So in some sense, think of it as armbar+. But because we move with aiki, we also don't actually need the "joint lock" component. The joint lock happens if uke is unable to actually defend the arm (for whatever reason).

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Old 11-05-2015, 10:18 AM   #39
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Re: Divergent Views on Doing Ikkyo

Good JJ?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bDVO9kXu5Lc

Start at 1:45
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Old 11-05-2015, 11:10 AM   #40
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Re: Divergent Views on Doing Ikkyo

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Patrick Buchbinder wrote: View Post
I said I think he would be in trouble if the uke was non-compliant. This is certainly not due to a lack of skill on Gleason's part, rather to how he chooses to apply his skill. His aim here seems to be different from mine, which is to neutralize the threat that the opponent poses as quickly and effectively as possible. Like many an Aikido practitioners, Gleason appears to emphasize "playing" with motion. So he transitions from ikkyo to kote-gaeshi without real necessity. While teaching this, I would emphasize that it is recommendable only under certain special circumstances, mostly if the uke manages to get out of the original arm lock. Okay, that's also a way to counteract the lack of control that I supposedly observed, but it is a wasted and risky motion from a martial perspective.
Well, sure. He's teaching a class, not taking down a mugger. I think he'd be the first to agree that practical applications don't look like kihon waza.

I still think you're mistaken about his "lack of control," though. "Playing" with motion in this way requires more control of uke, not less.

Katherine
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Old 11-05-2015, 11:56 AM   #41
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Re: Divergent Views on Doing Ikkyo

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Demetrio Cereijo wrote: View Post
Yes. Roy Dean does a lot with the elbow/back connection in his arm controls, too.

https://youtu.be/gc5YRdv-wSw
Nothing like a little arm control...

I think a critical component of the mechanics of ikkyo (i.e. body control through the arm) is breaking the connection between the elbow and the lat. muscle group. You see that in a lot of groundwork, from positional defense to holds (like kata katame). Standing kumi kata, too...

Not aiki, but good enough to eat my lunch...

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Old 11-05-2015, 12:16 PM   #42
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Re: Divergent Views on Doing Ikkyo

"from your replies I gather that breaking the uke's balance is the crucial issue here."

Kind of clear you don't understand kuzushi or its benefits. This statement alone, and certainly in concert with the technique centrism, indicates your level of understanding.

It is a rather sad state of affairs that Kathryn has to state the obvious in the comment just above, for it is not obvious, apparently, to all.
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Old 11-05-2015, 04:55 PM   #43
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Re: Divergent Views on Doing Ikkyo

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Demetrio Cereijo wrote: View Post
That is not Jujutsu. It is wrestling with a keikogi.

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Old 11-05-2015, 04:56 PM   #44
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Re: Divergent Views on Doing Ikkyo

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Hilary Heinmets wrote: View Post
"from your replies I gather that breaking the uke's balance is the crucial issue here."

Kind of clear you don't understand kuzushi or its benefits. This statement alone, and certainly in concert with the technique centrism, indicates your level of understanding.

It is a rather sad state of affairs that Kathryn has to state the obvious in the comment just above, for it is not obvious, apparently, to all.
I agree. I give up. We are obviously speaking different languages. Do what you like.
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Old 11-05-2015, 05:28 PM   #45
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Re: Divergent Views on Doing Ikkyo

Talk about circling the wagons.

Peter Rehse Shodokan Aikido
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Old 11-06-2015, 04:13 AM   #46
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Re: Divergent Views on Doing Ikkyo

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Jon Reading wrote: View Post
As an introspective questions, what do you think good jujutsu is? Or good judo? Techniques from these arts are also soft and powerful. Heck, one of judo's matra's is maximum efficiency with minimum effort. Good jujutsu is nothing to sneeze at, nor good karate, judo, etc. They all have armbars, too. So what makes ikkyo different?
One of the differences is that, doing an armbar in Ju-jutsu or Karate, you might hit the elbow joint, potentially breaking it. Aikido's approach is generally more subtle.

Quote:
As something of an elaboration to my earlier comment, aiki is what makes us different. Why is ikkyo not just an armbar (ikkajo)? Because we don't limit it to being an armbar. Rupert brought up a good point that I think we sometimes miss in our ikkyo - if uke does not defend the arm, we isolate it and apply an armbar. If uke defends the arm, our techniques moves through the arm and into the body. The scenario should be that uke is not presented with an opportunity to escape regardless of what she does. To put terms on other arts, the movement improves our position regardless of aite's response.
Excellent. To flow from one thing to another, rather than trying to force it, is certainly a basic principle of Aikido. Talking about the case at hand (no pun intended), what might we go into if we can't get the armbar on?

Quote:
Aiki is what unbalances our partner. Kuzushi on contact and all that. Victory in an instant, blah blah blah. Ikkyo is not just an arm bar because it has aiki. So in some sense, think of it as armbar+. But because we move with aiki, we also don't actually need the "joint lock" component. The joint lock happens if uke is unable to actually defend the arm (for whatever reason).
I would still look at it the other way around though: We try to get the joint lock on first but move on to something else if uke resists our attempt.
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Old 11-06-2015, 04:25 AM   #47
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Re: Divergent Views on Doing Ikkyo

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Hilary Heinmets wrote: View Post
"from your replies I gather that breaking the uke's balance is the crucial issue here."

Kind of clear you don't understand kuzushi or its benefits. This statement alone, and certainly in concert with the technique centrism, indicates your level of understanding.

It is a rather sad state of affairs that Kathryn has to state the obvious in the comment just above, for it is not obvious, apparently, to all.
Actually, Aikido constitutes a smaller part of my martial arts background. What is a rather sad state of affairs is that I can't ask what may be obvious to advanced practitioners without inviting this sort of comment. I came to this forum to learn things.
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Old 11-06-2015, 04:29 AM   #48
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Re: Divergent Views on Doing Ikkyo

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Robin Boyd wrote: View Post
I agree. I give up. We are obviously speaking different languages.
Wenn du meinst.

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Do what you like.
What else am I supposed to do?
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Old 11-06-2015, 04:31 AM   #49
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Re: Divergent Views on Doing Ikkyo

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Talk about circling the wagons.
The way of harmony?
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Old 11-06-2015, 05:59 AM   #50
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Re: Divergent Views on Doing Ikkyo

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Patrick Buchbinder wrote: View Post
Actually, Aikido constitutes a smaller part of my martial arts background. What is a rather sad state of affairs is that I can't ask what may be obvious to advanced practitioners without inviting this sort of comment. I came to this forum to learn things.
Hello.

I sympathize with you, but this is what happens when you, anyone, attempt(s) to discuss techniques (waza) in an Internet discussion forum. There are so many different assumptions behind the views expressed here that finding any common ground is next to impossible. I think there are various reasons for this, but it would cause too much thread drift to examine them here.

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