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Old 10-01-2015, 02:43 AM   #1
Rene
Dojo: Tendoryu Aikido Berlin
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Katate-dori or Katate-tori

Dear all,
I am practicing Aikido for many years in tendoryu style in Berlin. By googeling and reading books sometimes an attack is called katate dori, but in other books it is called katate tori; what is the difference and what is most likely more correct? Or does it depend on the specific style of Aikido? Thanks for any kind of explanations.
Rene
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Old 10-01-2015, 05:43 AM   #2
Demetrio Cereijo
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Re: Katate-dori or Katate-tori

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rendaku
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Old 10-01-2015, 07:06 AM   #3
rugwithlegs
Dojo: Open Sky Aikikai
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Re: Katate-dori or Katate-tori

There are a few different styles of translation, and you'll see many other words used to. Compare it to looking up "grab" in an English thesaurus.

I am not aware of any significant difference between Dori and Tori, usually blamed this on non-Japanese speakers.
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Old 10-01-2015, 08:07 AM   #4
Walter Martindale
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Re: Katate-dori or Katate-tori

Demetrio got it...

When some words (in this case tori) follow some vowels, in Japanese, the consonant starting the second word changes. Probably for ease of speech.

If you were to go to, say, Aikikai Hombu and say "katatetori" people would probably understand and may politely correct you (or just say) "katatedori"..

"hashi" is a 'romanization' of the words for bridge or chopsticks. Meaning comes from context or slight changes in intonation - i.e., if a non-native speaker, in a restaurant in Tokyo, was to ask for "hashi" with the wrong pronunciation, the server would not likely go out and bring the customer a bridge as the context implies chopsticks. So what... "nihon-hashi" is pronounced "nihom-bashi".. Suido - hashi is pronounced "suido-bashi" - those are bridges in Tokyo...(Suidobashi is also a train station on... is it Chiba-sen? - no - Chuo-sen...)

When in Japan, listen and learn.
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Old 10-02-2015, 01:24 AM   #5
robin_jet_alt
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Re: Katate-dori or Katate-tori

A good example is 'a herb' vs 'an herb.' Which is correct? It all depends on whether you pronounce the 'H' or not...
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Old 10-02-2015, 02:46 AM   #6
Rene
Dojo: Tendoryu Aikido Berlin
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Re: Katate-dori or Katate-tori

Thanks for this explanations, is sounds difficult to make and understand a correct translation, without to be speak Japanese.
Rene
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Old 10-02-2015, 04:42 PM   #7
nikyu62
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Re: Katate-dori or Katate-tori

Don't sweat the small stuff.
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Old 10-10-2015, 06:05 PM   #8
Carl Thompson
 
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Re: Katate-dori or Katate-tori

Just to clarify what I think was established right at the start of the thread: "katatedori" is correct.

Quote:
Robin Boyd wrote: View Post
A good example is 'a herb' vs 'an herb.' Which is correct? It all depends on whether you pronounce the 'H' or not...
In this example, either 'a' or 'an' is correct, but the rule for 'an' before a vowel is a nice comparison. Basically, it's not as easy to say "a 'erb" or "a apple." In the same way, see which rolls off the tongue the easiest: katatetori or katatedori. Same goes for happokiri or happogiri etc.

Carl
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Old 10-10-2015, 07:35 PM   #9
Peter Goldsbury
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Re: Katate-dori or Katate-tori

Quote:
Carl Thompson wrote: View Post
Just to clarify what I think was established right at the start of the thread: "katatedori" is correct.

In this example, either 'a' or 'an' is correct, but the rule for 'an' before a vowel is a nice comparison. Basically, it's not as easy to say "a 'erb" or "a apple." In the same way, see which rolls off the tongue the easiest: katatetori or katatedori. Same goes for happokiri or happogiri etc.

Carl
Hello Carl,

How about kotodama vs. kototama?

PAG

P A Goldsbury
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Old 10-11-2015, 03:41 PM   #10
Carl Thompson
 
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Re: Katate-dori or Katate-tori

Quote:
Peter A Goldsbury wrote: View Post
Hello Carl,

How about kotodama vs. kototama?

PAG
Hello professor,

I remember reading somewhere (probably John Stevens) that Osensei pronounced it kototama. Since I'm in Ibaraki (or Ibaragi), with it's interesting dialect, I'm careful of unusual expressions. Do you know how the founder would have said kotodama?

Carl
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Old 10-12-2015, 03:49 AM   #11
Peter Goldsbury
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Re: Katate-dori or Katate-tori

Quote:
Carl Thompson wrote: View Post
Hello professor,

I remember reading somewhere (probably John Stevens) that Osensei pronounced it kototama. Since I'm in Ibaraki (or Ibaragi), with it's interesting dialect, I'm careful of unusual expressions. Do you know how the founder would have said kotodama?

Carl
Hello Carl,

No, I don't. I think you would need to ask someone who knew him well, like Inagaki Shihan. In the Takemusu Aiki text, the furigana is kotodama, not kototama.

Best wishes,

PAG

P A Goldsbury
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Old 10-13-2015, 07:38 AM   #12
Carl Thompson
 
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Re: Katate-dori or Katate-tori

Quote:
Peter A Goldsbury wrote: View Post
Hello Carl,

No, I don't. I think you would need to ask someone who knew him well, like Inagaki Shihan. In the Takemusu Aiki text, the furigana is kotodama, not kototama.

Best wishes,

PAG
Good evening Professor,

Both Sensei and myself usually have to rush for work after the bukiwaza class on weekdays, but I managed to quickly ask him this morning. He is the first native speaker I have asked who has not just stated categorically that it is 'kododama'. I'm afraid I'm still processing his answer and he may have more to say about it, so I'll have to get back to you later.

Regards

Carl
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