Welcome to AikiWeb Aikido Information
AikiWeb: The Source for Aikido Information
AikiWeb's principal purpose is to serve the Internet community as a repository and dissemination point for aikido information.

Sections
home
aikido articles
columns

Discussions
forums
aikiblogs

Databases
dojo search
seminars
image gallery
supplies
links directory

Reviews
book reviews
video reviews
dvd reviews
equip. reviews

News
submit
archive

Miscellaneous
newsletter
rss feeds
polls
about

Follow us on



Home > AikiWeb Aikido Forums
Go Back   AikiWeb Aikido Forums > General

Hello and thank you for visiting AikiWeb, the world's most active online Aikido community! This site is home to over 22,000 aikido practitioners from around the world and covers a wide range of aikido topics including techniques, philosophy, history, humor, beginner issues, the marketplace, and more.

If you wish to join in the discussions or use the other advanced features available, you will need to register first. Registration is absolutely free and takes only a few minutes to complete so sign up today!

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old 10-05-2015, 10:18 AM   #26
Erick Mead
 
Erick Mead's Avatar
Dojo: Big Green Drum (W. Florida Aikikai)
Location: West Florida
Join Date: Jun 2005
Posts: 2,568
United_States
Offline
Re: Striking all along ( Wrong. Apologies.)

Quote:
David Skaggs wrote: View Post
Momentum taken from Wikipedia: Momentum: is the product of the mass and velocity of an object.

The sword or jo does not generate its own momentum, the momentum is generated by the person holding the sword or jo.
Velocity and mass are really analytic quantities, and not primary quantities -- momentum is the primary quantity. We know this because when either one is zero -- momentum is not really zero, even if we treat it that way for purpose of analysis.

Light has zero mass but has momentum, and can change the velocity of mass, and thus transfer its momentum. Inertia is simply resting momentum. Resting mass resists change in relative velocity but really is just the aspect of momentum at zero relative velocity. Sometimes reduction to analytic components makes sense-- sometimes it doesn't. The important thing is never to mistake the ruler for the world you mean to measure.

There are two basic ways to cut in terms of momentum transfer (though in variations). One way cuts in-phase with the blade -- stopping a forward rotation of the core and letting the angular momentum transfer and concentrate at the monouchi. The other way is out of phase with the cut, where the core counter-rotates to the rotation of the blade, but in stopping the core, propagation of the angular momentum to the monouchi is basically the same.

In nukitsuke, these are seen, respectively, in typical Tanimura-ha and Shimomura-ha (a gross simplification, I am aware). The same is true in variations of tai-jutsu. However, most people approach this with a natural bias toward the in-phase forms. It is fun to find the complement in the form where you can -- and usually makes people go --"Hm."

The point about analytic quantities applies here, because if you just think in terms of adding velocity it will seem confusing -- but in conserving momentum it is perfectly sensible. In terms of velocity it seems like you should "force the blade" to add "speed"(or "force")-- when in terms of conserving angular momentum you should just let the blade do its thing with the momentum it has been given, and just let the shortening arc of cut concentrate its angular momentum at the cut. You can't add any more "force" than that.

Cordially,

Erick Mead
一隻狗可久里馬房但他也不是馬的.
  Reply With Quote
Old 10-05-2015, 11:48 AM   #27
kewms
Join Date: Aug 2002
Posts: 1,316
Offline
Re: Striking all along ( Wrong. Apologies.)

Quote:
David Skaggs wrote: View Post
Momentum taken from Wikipedia: Momentum: is the product of the mass and velocity of an object.

The sword or jo does not generate its own momentum, the momentum is generated by the person holding the sword or jo.

dps
There's also gravity to consider.

As well as the fact that a sword or jo has considerable length, and therefore angular momentum around whatever the fulcrum happens to be (usually the hands).

Katherine
  Reply With Quote
Old 10-05-2015, 12:14 PM   #28
Erick Mead
 
Erick Mead's Avatar
Dojo: Big Green Drum (W. Florida Aikikai)
Location: West Florida
Join Date: Jun 2005
Posts: 2,568
United_States
Offline
Re: Striking all along ( Wrong. Apologies.)

Quote:
Robin Johnson wrote: View Post
... give them the understanding that we are simulating weapon attacks. It then makes a lot more sense to avoid the attack with blending movement rather trying to block with your arms, hands or head.

In the children classes that I teach, I spend time every week having them (without doing technique) avoid and enter against a shinai shomenuchi or munetski attack. I think it helps drill into them the concept of getting out of the way, positioning and to treat all attacks as though there might be a weapon - blunt or bladed.
To quibble. "Avoiding" an attack is -- IMO -- not practically possible. Predators take prey unawares -- it's just what they do. There is no avoiding an attack because practically speaking an attack is well-begun before the would-be victim is aware of beginning. "Engaging" the attack on the other hand, can occur at any point before impact, where avoiding the attack may simply be impossible. Evasion largely means getting cut, just a bit later.

I try to teach the concept of engaging in shear -- as with blades -- they come into instantaneous and yet sliding contact and yet never really collide with one another -- like scissors, they are in constant sliding contact and one never cuts the other.

Same principle works in tai-jutsu -- because when the monouchi is over my head -- I can touch his hand. Tegatana to tegatana. With irimi-tenkan -- that weapon he thought he had is no longer the relevant point of the engagement. His tegatana becomes mine to cut with.

What began as go no sen from my perspective -- on contact becomes sensen no sen from his perspective. In other words, as O Sensei said, "I am already behind him." In another sense, he began with his sphere of control encompassed by his weapon, whereas I began with my sphere of control encompassing him -- because HE is my weapon -- against himself.

Suriage. Suriotoshi. Kiriage. Kiriotoshi. These engagements of the attack all work, blade or no blade.

Cordially,

Erick Mead
一隻狗可久里馬房但他也不是馬的.
  Reply With Quote
Old 10-05-2015, 12:48 PM   #29
jurasketu
Dojo: Roswell Budokan
Location: Roswell GA
Join Date: Nov 2010
Posts: 106
United_States
Offline
Re: Striking all along ( Wrong. Apologies.)

Quote:
To quibble. "Avoiding" an attack is -- IMO -- not practically possible. Predators take prey unawares -- it's just what they do. There is no avoiding an attack because practically speaking an attack is well-begun before the would-be victim is aware of beginning. "Engaging" the attack on the other hand, can occur at any point before impact, where avoiding the attack may simply be impossible. Evasion largely means getting cut, just a bit later.
I think you might be confusing evade with avoid.

I am not teaching "evasion". I specifically said "avoid and enter" which is what I teach. Once you enter you can do something which may be to continue past and run like hell or disrupt/disable the opponent. In some situations, pure evasion may work because of the particular tableau (furniture, doors) and the ability to obtain/draw a weapon.

If you don't actually *avoid* an attack, you are likely *damaged* and your chances of survival are greatly diminished.

All paths lead to death. I strongly recommend taking one of the scenic routes.
AWA - Nidan - Started Aikido training in 2008
  Reply With Quote
Old 10-05-2015, 12:54 PM   #30
jurasketu
Dojo: Roswell Budokan
Location: Roswell GA
Join Date: Nov 2010
Posts: 106
United_States
Offline
Re: Striking all along ( Wrong. Apologies.)

I choose bottle/club because I'm simply trying to drill the concept of simulated weapons strikes into rookies. Addressing the full complexity of weapons and strikes can be pretty confusing. Blades don't need squat for momentum to be effective. It is just that speed of attack is generally important to seize the initiative and overcome defenses.

Momentum is not the only factor in the effectiveness of a strike. A nerf ball and a steel ball with the same mass thrown at the same velocity are not equally effective. Same momentum, vastly different result. But if you get out of the way - neither are effective.

All paths lead to death. I strongly recommend taking one of the scenic routes.
AWA - Nidan - Started Aikido training in 2008
  Reply With Quote
Old 10-06-2015, 09:08 AM   #31
jonreading
 
jonreading's Avatar
Dojo: Aikido South (formerly Emory Aikikai)
Location: Atlanta, Georgia
Join Date: Aug 2004
Posts: 1,073
United_States
Offline
Re: Striking all along ( Wrong. Apologies.)

I think the idea of tegatana and the concept of matching a weapons strike to an empty-hand strike is fairly complex. I want to be careful not to imply a couple of classes get you straightened out on that issue. This is actually pretty tough to accomplish, requires significant training just in that aspect and there are still weapons people who struggle to do this. Most aikido is even more removed from that practice.

Most of us are not competent at "cutting" in a practical sense. Applied cutting, waza with shinken and all the other aspects of weapons-based work are not in our wheel house. We can individualize our training to include that extra-curricular activity, but I generally believe that we could use a little more practice understanding what "tegatana" really means and where the power of our dojo strikes is generated. It becomes pretty obvious when you work out with someone skilled with weapons. After all, "move like you're cutting with a sword" is a staple response right up there with "relax."

As an interesting point removed from the effect of cutting, I think the idea of aiki-weapons is to generate aiki through a conduit (the weapon). Aiki sword does not contend with the cutting effect of sword arts, it contends with the ability to express aiki, even through a weapon, to disrupt your partner on contact. To express aiki with a weapon would be a high-level accomplishment. It wasn't that O Sensei was a better swordsman than other good swordsmen, it was that he could express aiki through his sword and that was something his opponents couldn't work around. To think about the effect of "cutting" with your hand may not be the best way to think about the exercise. Maybe, its better to think about expressing aiki into your hands, from there working on the ability to express aiki into weapon in your hand. The path of your movement mimics an effective path of a weapon. The argument being that if you can't put aiki in your hands (or feet or whatever), you certainly aren't putting it into a weapon. If you don't have aiki in your weapon, you're not doing aiki-weapons. Of course, if you have aiki in your hands and feet (or elbows, or knees), you can strike with aiki.

Last edited by jonreading : 10-06-2015 at 09:12 AM.

  Reply With Quote
Old 10-06-2015, 10:24 AM   #32
Cliff Judge
Location: Kawasaki, Kanagawa
Join Date: Sep 2005
Posts: 1,267
Japan
Offline
Re: Striking all along ( Wrong. Apologies.)

Seems to me that, of the footage we have available of Osensei doing aiki sword, stuff where he "takes uke's balance on contact" is not as common as the "is not there when uke cuts, and he has cut uke" type of waza.
  Reply With Quote
Old 10-06-2015, 11:24 AM   #33
jonreading
 
jonreading's Avatar
Dojo: Aikido South (formerly Emory Aikikai)
Location: Atlanta, Georgia
Join Date: Aug 2004
Posts: 1,073
United_States
Offline
Re: Striking all along ( Wrong. Apologies.)

Quote:
Cliff Judge wrote: View Post
Seems to me that, of the footage we have available of Osensei doing aiki sword, stuff where he "takes uke's balance on contact" is not as common as the "is not there when uke cuts, and he has cut uke" type of waza.
Prove to me those two things can't be the same.

  Reply With Quote
Old 10-06-2015, 11:49 AM   #34
jonreading
 
jonreading's Avatar
Dojo: Aikido South (formerly Emory Aikikai)
Location: Atlanta, Georgia
Join Date: Aug 2004
Posts: 1,073
United_States
Offline
Re: Striking all along ( Wrong. Apologies.)

https://youtu.be/BuM6gSrkJW8
I like this video because you can see weapons and empty-hand together. I think looking for a visibly unbalanced uke is not going to illustrate what is going on; O Sensei is throwing his partners without the visible unbalance. He also demonstrates some movements when he starts and some movements when he responds, so you have a collection of interaction that transcends the "who goes first?" chronology question. For me, this means the ideas of "cutting first" or "moving first" are less relevant than cutting [with aiki] or moving [with aiki].

Last edited by jonreading : 10-06-2015 at 11:55 AM.

  Reply With Quote
Old 10-06-2015, 11:58 AM   #35
kewms
Join Date: Aug 2002
Posts: 1,316
Offline
Re: Striking all along ( Wrong. Apologies.)

Quote:
Cliff Judge wrote: View Post
Seems to me that, of the footage we have available of Osensei doing aiki sword, stuff where he "takes uke's balance on contact" is not as common as the "is not there when uke cuts, and he has cut uke" type of waza.
What Jon said.

Also, taking a good swordsman's balance through blade-to-blade contact is pretty difficult, since it requires that *he* maintain his half of the sword-to-body connection. One of the fundamentals of swordsmanship is the ability to disconnect from a failed cut so that you can recover as quickly and safely as possible. "Uke gets cut" seems a much more likely outcome to me than "uke loses balance."

(Not that it matters much from uke's point of view. Dead is dead.)

Katherine
  Reply With Quote
Old 10-06-2015, 01:04 PM   #36
Cliff Judge
Location: Kawasaki, Kanagawa
Join Date: Sep 2005
Posts: 1,267
Japan
Offline
Re: Striking all along ( Wrong. Apologies.)

Quote:
Jon Reading wrote: View Post
Prove to me those two things can't be the same.
I am not interested in attempting that.

You can achieve the latter goal by many other means than creating aiki though.

Quote:
Jon Reading wrote: View Post
https://youtu.be/BuM6gSrkJW8
I like this video because you can see weapons and empty-hand together.
He does all of four kumitachi in this whole clip.

Here's a good one.

And here's a clip of Shioda doing stuff that looks essentially the same to me.
  Reply With Quote
Old 10-06-2015, 01:54 PM   #37
mathewjgano
 
mathewjgano's Avatar
Dojo: Tsubaki Kannagara Jinja Aikidojo; Himeji Shodokan Dojo
Location: Renton
Join Date: Feb 2005
Posts: 2,212
United_States
Offline
Re: Striking all along ( Wrong. Apologies.)

Quote:
Hansel Wong wrote: View Post
...in the midst of pitched battle, against a fully armored warrior and aiming for a target the size of a china cup saucer, and pressed for time because you never know when the next guy is coming to take your head while you are trying to find the saucer. Can you expect to have a specific target in mind?

A duel is even worse. The other guy has the same weapon as you, do you not think that he would know where he could be cut and take precautions? To aim for a specific target then would make you predictable, and shortly dead.

In which case, my serious answer would be;

"where is my blade? It is in the mind."

"Where do I cut? Where the mind is weakest."

In my opinion of course.
I think there's a distinction to be made for having a target and overcommitting to "a" target. The targets present themselves as the flow of movement unfolds. In a sense, I would guess that we ought have multiple targets at the same time, and it's a matter of finding our way to one or more of them, through the manipulation of other targets (targets we're not trying to cut so much as get to move out of our way).

Gambarimashyo!
  Reply With Quote
Old 10-06-2015, 02:01 PM   #38
kewms
Join Date: Aug 2002
Posts: 1,316
Offline
Re: Striking all along ( Wrong. Apologies.)

Quote:
Matthew Gano wrote: View Post
I think there's a distinction to be made for having a target and overcommitting to "a" target. The targets present themselves as the flow of movement unfolds. In a sense, I would guess that we ought have multiple targets at the same time, and it's a matter of finding our way to one or more of them, through the manipulation of other targets (targets we're not trying to cut so much as get to move out of our way).
Yes. Well put.

At the moment of cutting, it is necessary to have a specific target to cut effectively. Exactly what that target is cannot be predetermined, however, but must evolve from the flow of the encounter.

How much time between identifying the target and actually cutting it? That depends on the skill of the swordsman.

Katherine
  Reply With Quote
Old 10-06-2015, 03:35 PM   #39
Cliff Judge
Location: Kawasaki, Kanagawa
Join Date: Sep 2005
Posts: 1,267
Japan
Offline
Re: Striking all along ( Wrong. Apologies.)

Yes! Absolutely, always pick a target.

FOCUS ALL OF YOUR INTENT ON THE TARGET.
  Reply With Quote
Old 10-06-2015, 03:49 PM   #40
PeterR
 
PeterR's Avatar
Dojo: Shodokan Honbu (Osaka)
Location: Himeji, Japan
Join Date: Mar 2001
Posts: 3,236
Japan
Offline
Re: Striking all along ( Wrong. Apologies.)

So speaking of pitched battles - who else has seen the new Macbeth.

Peter Rehse Shodokan Aikido
  Reply With Quote

Please visit our sponsor:

AikiWeb Sponsored Links - Place your Aikido link here for only $10!



Reply


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Aikido: Striking all along? earnest aikidoka General 95 02-04-2015 07:23 PM
Aikido: Striking all along? earnest aikidoka General 0 01-27-2015 06:56 PM
Toby Threadgill, SoCal July 26 & 27. Internal strength, jujutsu principles, striking Richard Elias Events Listings: Non-Aikido Martial Traditions 1 07-17-2014 04:41 PM
Saito sensei's path was wrong? Jorx Teaching 20 08-17-2003 10:05 PM
practice, doing it wrong to get it right. Bruce Baker General 4 12-30-2002 04:13 PM


All times are GMT -6. The time now is 02:16 AM.



vBulletin Copyright © 2000-2016 Jelsoft Enterprises Limited
----------
Copyright 1997-2016 AikiWeb and its Authors, All Rights Reserved.
----------
For questions and comments about this website:
Send E-mail
plainlaid-picaresque outchasing-protistan explicantia-altarage seaford-stellionate