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Old 09-03-2015, 07:26 PM   #1
turbonis
Dojo: Cagayan Aikido Dojo
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2 Martial Arts

If you're practicing Aikido and a striking Martial art such as boxing/kickboxing, is it justifiable to be the aggressive one, and you just apply aikido when he/she tries to strike?
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Old 09-03-2015, 07:31 PM   #2
kewms
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Re: 2 Martial Arts

What's the circumstance? In the dojo, do what your teacher says. In the real world, "being the aggressive one" usually puts you on questionable legal ground.

It also seems to me that *before* he tries to strike is the best and most effective time to apply aikido.

Katherine
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Old 09-03-2015, 07:48 PM   #3
turbonis
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Re: 2 Martial Arts

We were always told in our dojo that if you're in a heated argument you need not to fight and just talk. But if you're a boxer can you challenge him into a fist fight? im just a 4th kyu hehe
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Old 09-03-2015, 07:59 PM   #4
dps
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Re: 2 Martial Arts

I was told over fifty years ago by my Dad who was a brawler and boxer in his younger day and taught how to box when I was in grade school.

" If you can, avoid fighting. If you can't, win or loose, make sure they don't want to fight you again."

With Aikido I have the ability to prolong the avoidance but also the ability to make them not want to.

dps
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Old 09-03-2015, 08:45 PM   #5
robin_jet_alt
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Re: 2 Martial Arts

Quote:
Jon Christian Tuadles wrote: View Post
We were always told in our dojo that if you're in a heated argument you need not to fight and just talk. But if you're a boxer can you challenge him into a fist fight? im just a 4th kyu hehe
Sure you can. Just as long as you are prepared to be arrested for assault...
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Old 09-03-2015, 10:11 PM   #6
turbonis
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Re: 2 Martial Arts

im asking on the aikido side not the legal. but i understand there are consequences i may face when doing this.
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Old 09-04-2015, 12:33 AM   #7
earnest aikidoka
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Re: 2 Martial Arts

Quote:
Jon Christian Tuadles wrote: View Post
im asking on the aikido side not the legal. but i understand there are consequences i may face when doing this.
You have to differentiate between dojo training and combat.

In the dojo, you cannot be aggressive. It hampers training and makes you a lousy partner. On the mats, aikido is a two-way thing, one will attack, the other defend. So you have to follow the role assigned at the time, when you attack, attack. When you perform, allow your uke to attack. This is training.

In combat. it's game on. Anything you can use to win, use to win. Now your opponent will resist, or worst, ambush you in confrontation. There are times when you will have to initiate the fight, to get the advantage. There times when you can hold back and wait. Whatever it is, you can't be rigid. Act according to the situation. This is combat.

Even in training, there may be times when you get the chance to experiment with techniques in jiyuwaza, or the instructor is very lenient, and open to experimentation. Here you could be aggressive, within reason. Strike harder to allow your uke to experience some weight, faster for speed. But communicate and adapt to the preferences of your partner.

Are you justified? It really depends, don't be afraid to communicate and make requests from your uke. Just be clear and polite in whatever you do.
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Old 09-04-2015, 01:27 AM   #8
Sojourner
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Re: 2 Martial Arts

Here is a quote often attributed to Imi Litchtenfeld, founder of the Krav Maga combat system "If a man comes to kill you, kill him first". His holiness the Dalai Lama once said "If someone has a gun and is trying to kill you, it would be reasonable to shoot back with your own gun".

As above it depends largely on the situation that you find yourself in, if someone wanted to attack me and I genuinely believed that I was going to be hit, then I probably would take a pre emptive strike/s to end it. If you are going to use an Aikido technique to plant an attackers face into the concrete or a kitchen benchtop and break their neck and so forth then I see little difference between doing that and striking.

There is a world of difference in my opinion of being the first cause of a violent assault and using a pre emptive strike to defend yourself.
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Old 09-04-2015, 01:55 AM   #9
Dan Richards
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Re: 2 Martial Arts

If you're practicing aikido in the true spirit, it is the pinnacle of aggression when the pedal meets the metal.

If you need to find "another art," even the idea that you need another art is...barking up the wrong hamburger stand.

Aikido is, above all, a striking art.

Last edited by Dan Richards : 09-04-2015 at 01:58 AM.
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Old 09-04-2015, 07:02 AM   #10
Demetrio Cereijo
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Re: 2 Martial Arts

Aggresive? Yes, but never reckless.
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Old 09-04-2015, 04:20 PM   #11
lbb
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Re: 2 Martial Arts

Quote:
Jon Christian Tuadles wrote: View Post
We were always told in our dojo that if you're in a heated argument you need not to fight and just talk. But if you're a boxer can you challenge him into a fist fight? im just a 4th kyu hehe
If you can't find a way to end a heated argument without challenging someone to a fist fight, or any kind of fight, then you're doing it wrong. A "heated argument" is a disagreement; it is not a threat. There is nothing compelling you to respond to anything that happens in a "heated argument" by escalating to a fight, and there are reasons beyond counting to not do so if you're not compelled to.

Why does this discussion even arise? Really, you're not a little child. Little children imagine that they'll beat up the other kid and establish their dominance and everything will be great. They don't think about all the consequences of their actions. Let me name some of them for you: legal action, go directly to jail. Financial consequences if you injure someone or damage property. Shunning by friends, family, community. Disgracing yourself in public. Losing your job. Becoming known as an antisocial person. Being thrown out of school. Becoming permanently banned from whatever bar or club or wherever you were when you engaged in these shenanigans. Retaliation from your victim, his family or friends. Living with your conscience knowing that you badly hurt someone, maybe so badly that he'll never walk right or use his hand or see out of one eye again. Use your imagination. That's a sampler of what can happen if you decided that a good old-fashioned fight is much more satisfying than a "heated argument".

Fighting when you don't have to is stupid, stupid, stupid. Are you stupid? That's really the only question that matters here.
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Old 09-04-2015, 07:16 PM   #12
RonRagusa
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Re: 2 Martial Arts

Quote:
Mary Malmros wrote: View Post
There is nothing compelling you to respond to anything that happens in a "heated argument" by escalating to a fight, and there are reasons beyond counting to not do so if you're not compelled to.
People can be compelled by fear to escalate a verbal argument into a fight. Seen it happen on more than one occasion.

Ron

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Old 09-04-2015, 10:05 PM   #13
kewms
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Re: 2 Martial Arts

Quote:
Ron Ragusa wrote: View Post
People can be compelled by fear to escalate a verbal argument into a fight. Seen it happen on more than one occasion.

Ron
Arguably, fear is a leading cause of such escalation. The person who feels they are losing the verbal argument escalates to avoid losing, to avoid being seen as weak, to avoid losing face, etc.

Out on the internet, you can find lots of videos in which some punk is harassing an experienced martial artist, an older boxer, a war veteran, someone like that. And the person being harassed is failing to respond with deference, fear, or whatever emotion the punk was seeking to inspire. Rather than seeing this as a warning (If he isn't afraid of you, what does he know that you don't?), the punk continues to escalate until he finally does something that demands a physical response. Lesson in the importance of respecting one's elders ensues.

Point being that the ability to *not* be afraid is, in and of itself, an extremely powerful weapon.

Katherine
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Old 09-04-2015, 10:08 PM   #14
rugwithlegs
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Re: 2 Martial Arts

I read the original post as a tactical question. Some schools, particularly early on, can have a sharp dividing line between initiating, striking, and Aikido. It is common for beginners to be asked to stand still and wait for violence to happen in the context of kata, but this is limited and for training.

Not true of all schools. Check out Aikido Journal and some Iwama stuff on Nage initiating the technique, or YouTube a Tomiki match. Within the context of the dojo, respect the teacher.
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Old 09-06-2015, 12:53 PM   #15
JP3
 
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Re: 2 Martial Arts

My question is related to the O/P's question, on the use of the word justifiable...

Justification in the legal sense would require the other guy to be trying to do bad things to you, first, then it's self-defense. Going first is assault/battery and it is You who are the bad guy.

Morally, from a peaceful mindset point of view, I'd say it's not justifiable, no.

But, from a real-world, need to protect yourself, if you didn't start the engagement, the bad guy continues it after you attempt to defuse the situation and attacks, then you do what is to hand to protect yourself.

And, finally, tactically... I'm coming from a place where I'm stacking 20years of aikido on top of 20 years-ish of striking arts ... there are VERY more iopportune times to use a strike than when the initial contact moment of the engagement is controlled by your aikido and the other person is out of position and off-balance. But, you still have to concern yourself with legality at that point as Katherine pointed out above.

I find it interesting that the kanji character for kuzushi illustrates a mountain falling on a house.
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Old 09-07-2015, 12:09 AM   #16
kewms
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Re: 2 Martial Arts

Quote:
John Hillson wrote: View Post
I read the original post as a tactical question. Some schools, particularly early on, can have a sharp dividing line between initiating, striking, and Aikido. It is common for beginners to be asked to stand still and wait for violence to happen in the context of kata, but this is limited and for training.
Yes. And, IMO, should be abandoned as early as possible. Learning how to time and control the timing of the attack is critical for effective technique, much less effective off-mat application, and is pretty much impossible if "standing still and waiting for violence to happen."

Katherine
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Old 09-07-2015, 04:18 PM   #17
JP3
 
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Re: 2 Martial Arts

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Katherine Derbyshire wrote: View Post
Yes. And, IMO, should be abandoned as early as possible. Learning how to time and control the timing of the attack is critical for effective technique, much less effective off-mat application, and is pretty much impossible if "standing still and waiting for violence to happen."

Katherine
Katherine, a question. "When" is, in your opinion, "abandoned as early as possible" mean? Either in a objective time sense, i.e. 3 months or 1 year, or whatever.... or, in a subjective sense, when the instructor can visually/by means of tactile sense knowing, when the person is ready for that step?

Myself, I consider beginner training to be an exercise in reducing the amount of variables involved, so I always have beginners start in the same location, same stances etc., just so they can start to fit things into a "Form," which is something upon which we can grow from and expand with as we introduce more and more variables, e.g. opposite-side stances vs. mirroring-stances, attackers approaching from flanks or rear, more than one attacker, etc.

So, I suppose my question is, in your students, when do you move away from static training into dynamic training?

I find it interesting that the kanji character for kuzushi illustrates a mountain falling on a house.
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Old 09-07-2015, 05:39 PM   #18
rugwithlegs
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Re: 2 Martial Arts

I like what Katherine is saying, but the balance is tricky. I think people who do solid Kihon technique like Morote Dori Kokyu Ho, Kokyu Doza, and Ushiro ryotekubidori without timing and momentum do get better integration and structure - it is how I started. Timing is harder to do, and harder to benefit from, without good structure.

Kawahara Sensei had a long list of techniques for grading. For an example. Shomenuchi only: For 5th Kyu, Shomenuchi: Ikkyo to Yonkyo Omote and Ura, Iriminage, Kotegaeshi, Shihonage Omote and Ura, and others with the understanding we were going for precision and accuracy in basics. Fourth Kyu included many of the same named movements, plus Shomenuchi Koshinage and Gokyo. The variations were a little more flowing and less solid. 3rd Kyu had some of the same named movements again, with even more flowing variations and finally Shomenuchi Kokyunage three ways. Kokyunage was expected to show timing and placement. I think this was a good systematic way to develop good structure and then open students up to timing and movement. We broke away from static in stages, one type of movement at a time.

But, people often took three years to get third Kyu. While "It's all about the journey, etc, etc" a friend of mine joined the FBI and had six months of training in All aspects of her job including combat, investigation, firearms, law...so three years to get to this level of training is something I have had to reevaluate for personal reasons.

I was not practing much with weapons, relative to other associations. Jo Dori, Tachi Dori were very much about getting off the line and entering, and exploring different timing. Am I entering as the bokken is raising or as it lowers, etc.

I like how I learned, but years ago I started to play with some short weapon drills for a beginner who never got off the line - shomenuchi, move inside or outside and Tsuki without blocking, etc. I still get back to this as I see people doing suburi without getting off the line, or kumitachi/kumijo focusing on weapon on weapon contact instead of getting to where they cannot be touched. Another aspect of Mr Powell's question - how to train someone to get to dynamic movement properly (good placement, structure, power, timing) not just When.

Last edited by rugwithlegs : 09-07-2015 at 05:44 PM. Reason: Freaking auto correct
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Old 09-08-2015, 11:21 AM   #19
kewms
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Re: 2 Martial Arts

Quote:
John Powell wrote: View Post
Katherine, a question. "When" is, in your opinion, "abandoned as early as possible" mean? Either in a objective time sense, i.e. 3 months or 1 year, or whatever.... or, in a subjective sense, when the instructor can visually/by means of tactile sense knowing, when the person is ready for that step?
Our dojo has "flowing" technique on the test requirements beginning with 5th kyu, which is the second test in our system. OTOH, you'll still see static exercises in classes where most of the students are yudansha. It depends on what exactly the instructor is trying to teach.

(And it should be said that a static exercise for yudansha generally has a different purpose than a static exercise for beginners. The beginners are probably learning the shape of the technique with minimal resistance, while the yudansha are probably learning about internal structure and relaxation with a resisting partner.)

When I'm teaching, I'll generally show both static and dynamic versions. I'll encourage everyone except complete beginners to try the dynamic versions -- at speed appropriate to their level -- with the static versions as a fallback if needed.

Katherine
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Old 09-08-2015, 11:28 AM   #20
kewms
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Re: 2 Martial Arts

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John Hillson wrote: View Post
But, people often took three years to get third Kyu. While "It's all about the journey, etc, etc" a friend of mine joined the FBI and had six months of training in All aspects of her job including combat, investigation, firearms, law...so three years to get to this level of training is something I have had to reevaluate for personal reasons.
Not really a fair comparison, unless you were training 40 hours a week for three years.

40 hours x 26 weeks = 1040 training hours. That's 2-4 years at 5-10 hours a week.

Katherine
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Old 09-08-2015, 11:40 AM   #21
kewms
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Re: 2 Martial Arts

Quote:
John Hillson wrote: View Post
I like how I learned, but years ago I started to play with some short weapon drills for a beginner who never got off the line - shomenuchi, move inside or outside and Tsuki without blocking, etc. I still get back to this as I see people doing suburi without getting off the line, or kumitachi/kumijo focusing on weapon on weapon contact instead of getting to where they cannot be touched. Another aspect of Mr Powell's question - how to train someone to get to dynamic movement properly (good placement, structure, power, timing) not just When.
Repeatedly whacking people in the head with a shinai or empty hand seems to work. Except the person doing the striking has to have good targeting: following them if they drift, rather than just striking empty air. We'll do these kinds of drills very early on.

When? The sooner you start, the sooner the student will see progress. Students like being able to see progress.

Katherine
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Old 09-12-2015, 12:05 PM   #22
Alec Corper
 
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Re: 2 Martial Arts

No disrespect intended but I disagree with most of what is said here. It all sounds like "dojo mindedness".
Timing is all well and good but speed will,fail you in the end, and is damn near useless in the real world. Sudden violence, ambushes, deception and so on can't be prepared for by having someone attempting to hit you with a bokken in the dojo, " Ready, here I come!!!!"
Situational awareness, perceptual speed and readiness, the combination in Chinese terms of Peng and Ting Jin, inflated sphere and listening power, these attributes are far more important. The condition that is valid for both successful daily living and combat is something worth striving for far more than a collection of anachronistic techniques which are the possible vehicles of learning rather than the attributes themselves.

If your temper rises withdraw your hand, if your hand rises withdraw your temper.
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Old 09-12-2015, 01:42 PM   #23
kewms
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Re: 2 Martial Arts

If you can't deal with an expected attack in the dojo, though, how on earth do you expect to deal with an ambush "out there?"

Katherine
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Old 09-13-2015, 02:01 PM   #24
Alec Corper
 
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Re: 2 Martial Arts

Don't get off line, occupy the line. Don't intercept, arrive beforehand. Don't respond, control the space before the energy arrives. If you are not ready you are always too late. We are not even talking the same language so I guess there is nothing to discuss, sorry to take up your time. Too old to argue.
best wishes

If your temper rises withdraw your hand, if your hand rises withdraw your temper.
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Old 09-13-2015, 04:22 PM   #25
kewms
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Re: 2 Martial Arts

Quote:
Alec Corper wrote: View Post
Don't get off line, occupy the line. Don't intercept, arrive beforehand. Don't respond, control the space before the energy arrives. If you are not ready you are always too late. We are not even talking the same language so I guess there is nothing to discuss, sorry to take up your time. Too old to argue.
best wishes
Oh, I think we completely agree. Certainly I have no argument with the language you're using. I'd just like to know how you would train those skills in a dojo context.

Katherine
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