Welcome to AikiWeb Aikido Information
AikiWeb: The Source for Aikido Information
AikiWeb's principal purpose is to serve the Internet community as a repository and dissemination point for aikido information.

Sections
home
aikido articles
columns

Discussions
forums
aikiblogs

Databases
dojo search
seminars
image gallery
supplies
links directory

Reviews
book reviews
video reviews
dvd reviews
equip. reviews

News
submit
archive

Miscellaneous
newsletter
rss feeds
polls
about

Follow us on



Home > AikiWeb Aikido Forums
Go Back   AikiWeb Aikido Forums > General

Hello and thank you for visiting AikiWeb, the world's most active online Aikido community! This site is home to over 22,000 aikido practitioners from around the world and covers a wide range of aikido topics including techniques, philosophy, history, humor, beginner issues, the marketplace, and more.

If you wish to join in the discussions or use the other advanced features available, you will need to register first. Registration is absolutely free and takes only a few minutes to complete so sign up today!

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old 09-01-2015, 10:50 AM   #26
kewms
Join Date: Aug 2002
Posts: 1,316
Offline
Re: Crisis of Faith

Quote:
Stephen Irving wrote: View Post
I understand a lot about what aikido is about.......the philosophy, the harnessing energy, redirecting, circular movements etc etc etc..............and from my comments in the post above you could say that I don't know the first thing about aikido.......but many aspects stand out to me and many questions merely present themselves.....IF I asked some of them to my sensei I think he would be annoyed, perhaps he wouldn't but I wont be finding out....which presents another question, why should I need to tip toe around the issues?
You shouldn't. If your teacher isn't open to sincere questions, then you need to find another teacher.

OTOH, sometimes the answer will be "keep training." Sometimes the answer will be "well, if you do X, then I can do Y and Z, but if I did that in class people would run away and not come back," or "we don't train for X, because that's really dumb for Y and Z reasons."

Katherine
  Reply With Quote
Old 09-01-2015, 11:00 AM   #27
kewms
Join Date: Aug 2002
Posts: 1,316
Offline
Re: Crisis of Faith

Quote:
Amir Krause wrote: View Post
2) to Stephen Irving: Almost all Aikido techniques are not unique to aikido, rather same techniques exist in many other Ju-Jutsu styles (and , with slightly larger variation - almost all martial arts) . Those styles are mostly reputed to be "fighting styles", hence you shouldn't doubt the technique, they are as good as punches and kicks (those too have limitations).
Indeed. Rhonda Rousey said in an interview recently that MMA is easier on her body than judo was. Something along the lines of (paraphrasing): with striking, someone gets a little cut and there's blood everywhere so it looks impressive, but grappling can really do a number on the joints.

(Now, when you decimate opponents in 30 seconds or less, that's probably pretty easy for your body, too, but that's a different topic.)

Katherine
  Reply With Quote
Old 09-01-2015, 11:57 AM   #28
G Sinclair
 
G Sinclair's Avatar
Dojo: Bushikan Aikido
Location: New England
Join Date: May 2005
Posts: 28
United_States
Offline
Re: Crisis of Faith

Quote:
Kenneth King wrote: View Post
I trained with a tenshin guy for a year or so, when I first moved to st Louis. It's different in some ways like thier deflections and randori, but I wouldn't say that thier yudansha are any better than the aikikai guys I currently train with. However, there was ALOT of "this is the only aikido that works" talk just like in Sly's video.
Oh yes. I forgot about him. I shared the mat with him once. Just once. And I understand exactly what you are talking about.

  Reply With Quote
Old 09-01-2015, 01:18 PM   #29
jdm4life
Join Date: Mar 2014
Posts: 52
United_States
Offline
Re: Crisis of Faith

Before I started to practice aikido, I didnt realise how much flack it is subjected to., off people who have an interest in MA and people that don't. I decided it was the one for me and began to try and find a club.

I read a lot of stuff on this blog and it gives many clues as to how and why it ended up that way.....

http://aikidoarticles.blogspot.co.uk/

All this lovvey dovvey 'now lets not hurt anybody' stuff gets really annoying. What happens to the lets all hug and be at peace when somebody decides theyd like to try and take your head off?

Perhaps its due to too much of this lets all hug and care for each other nonsense that sticks aikido head above the parapets....

O sensei said this.......o sensei said that......who knows what he said....and even if you do know what he said, who knows what he meant by it. The Oh O Sensei said such and such shouldn't be used as a defense for a genuine discussion about aikido. It should be martial, it shouldn't be used to purposely hurt people for the sake of it....but it should be used to hurt people if they decide they hate your guts and want to attack you.

Its not about fighting and thats why it appeals to me partly but it should be about protecting yourself from violent people, its a very violent world and its a good tool to have. I also am very keen on philosophy etc but that will only go so far. Working the body and mknd togetheris what aikido means to me but to compliment that, id like to think Im learning something practical that might get me out of a scrape if that unfortunate situation ever presents itself, which is quite likely given the number of dickheads around.

Last edited by jdm4life : 09-01-2015 at 01:31 PM.
  Reply With Quote
Old 09-01-2015, 01:39 PM   #30
mathewjgano
 
mathewjgano's Avatar
Dojo: Tsubaki Kannagara Jinja Aikidojo; Himeji Shodokan Dojo
Location: Renton
Join Date: Feb 2005
Posts: 2,211
United_States
Offline
Re: Crisis of Faith

Quote:
Stephen Irving wrote: View Post
Before I started to practice, I didnt realise how much flack aikido gets off people who have an interest in MA and people that don't.

I read a lot of stuff on here and it gives many clues as to how and why it ended up that way.....

http://aikidoarticles.blogspot.co.uk/

All this lovvey dovvey 'now lets not hurt anybody' stuff gets annoying. What happens to the lets all hug and be at peace when somebody decides theyd like to try and take your head off?
Because Aikido is about a lot more than self defense, if that's what you're interested in, you have to find a place that focuses on it...and that may well be somwhat rare. That said, when someone tries to take your head off, you stop them. How you stop them will depend on everything from your attitude to how your body is trained.
In my opinion, the loveydovey is generally more practical, which is a big part of why I think it's so valuable, but it certainly isn't the whole story. Different practices will have different emphasis; it's as simple as that, and it's up to the students to investigate and figure out what's best for themselves and their goals. Maybe some people hide behind the peaceful side of things, I don't know. The people I've trained with, "traditional" Aikidoists, have no problem hurting an attacker to protect loved ones, and some of them take their self defense training (one small aspect of Aikido, as little as I may understand it) very seriously...LEO's, and military and whatnot.
We get out of our practice that which we put into it, and how we frame our own learning makes a big difference from how others frame theirs.
...and no it's not about fighting; in my limited opinion it's about everything, of which fighting is but one slice.

Gambarimashyo!
  Reply With Quote
Old 09-01-2015, 05:16 PM   #31
rugwithlegs
Dojo: Open Sky Aikikai
Location: Durham, NC
Join Date: Apr 2013
Posts: 302
United_States
Offline
Re: Crisis of Faith

"I trained with a tenshin guy for a year or so, when I first moved to st Louis. It's different in some ways like thier deflections and randori, but I wouldn't say that thier yudansha are any better than the aikikai guys I currently train with. However, there was ALOT of "this is the only aikido that works" talk just like in Sly's video."

I had the same experience going to a different Tohei lineage offshoot. Really, I have yet to attend the martial arts school that says, "we're weaker than someone else in _________."
  Reply With Quote
Old 09-01-2015, 08:14 PM   #32
kewms
Join Date: Aug 2002
Posts: 1,316
Offline
Re: Crisis of Faith

Quote:
Stephen Irving wrote: View Post
It should be martial, it shouldn't be used to purposely hurt people for the sake of it....but it should be used to hurt people if they decide they hate your guts and want to attack you.
I think that if you think of aikido as something you do TO another person, you are missing the point and your aikido probably won't work very well.

Which is not to say that an attacker's encounter with gravity and/or my integrated structure won't be unpleasant and possibly damaging for him. Just that he's encountering the natural consequences of his own actions, rather than me trying to "punish" him for his unwise behavior.

There's also the question of *why* this person hates your guts and wants to attack you. People who are randomly hateful toward strangers for no reason do exist, but they are actually pretty rare. If you encounter people who hate you and want to attack you with any regularity, the problem may not lie with them.

Katherine
  Reply With Quote
Old 09-02-2015, 06:04 AM   #33
lbb
Location: Massachusetts
Join Date: Jun 2006
Posts: 3,053
United_States
Offline
Re: Crisis of Faith

Quote:
Katherine Derbyshire wrote: View Post
There's also the question of *why* this person hates your guts and wants to attack you. People who are randomly hateful toward strangers for no reason do exist, but they are actually pretty rare. If you encounter people who hate you and want to attack you with any regularity, the problem may not lie with them.
Or it may. Human history has a long list of groups (ethnic, religious, political, what have you) that were targeted by others for no damn good reason whatsoever. We have plenty of them, and we also have a lengthy history of telling people in those groups that the reason they're being attacked is their own fault. So, while there's no specific indication that that's the case here, I have considerable qualms about your statement as written.
  Reply With Quote
Old 09-02-2015, 06:46 AM   #34
earnest aikidoka
Location: singapore
Join Date: Feb 2009
Posts: 97
Singapore
Offline
Re: Crisis of Faith

Quote:
Greg Sinclair wrote: View Post
This is the crux of the problem. Right here. These statements are made although it is clear they have not been on the mat with Lenny Sly, any competent Tenshin Aikido instructor, or if they have, they misunderstood the teachings.

However, they are stating loudly and clearly everything that he is doing is wrong.

Now, don't misunderstand me. I am not attacking anyone. But there was a time when the wisest minds on the planet were convinced the earth was flat. It was not until someone got out there and set sail that a new way of thinking was achieved.

Try it out. For real, give it an honest run. Then return and read what you have written. I'm confident your opinion will differ.

There are forms of Aikido that are more functional than others. Even if it seems unimaginable.
If I was younger, I would have called Sensei Sly a god. I believed that was how to train, harder, faster, with modern weapons. I pissed off partners and my instructors trying to to be harder and faster, thinking that that was how to get better.

After getting smacked around a bit more, I noticed something, I was small.

Sensei Sly, Steven Seagal, they were large. Muscular, hard men. Their size was an advantage, therefore a more direct style, more straight forward style, was something they would develop to suit their size.

But what about for the smaller guy? I am short, I am small. If I were to try and do what Sensei Sly did, I would just be rolled over. I gone up against a guy that was a head taller and heavier then me by a couple of pounds, light sparring, rolled over. Just got my face turned into a target.

Here is the thing, O sensei, Gozo Shioda Sensei, they were small, used aikido techniques, the same techniques we are training and using today, and they won. They won over people and showed that Aikido was a real martial art. It wasn't strength, or brute strength anyway, but superior technique that they had used to triumph, and that is what Aikido aims to teach, not fighting, but a superior way of fighting.

Sensei Sly has had only 16 years of Aikido training and size and strength. All this equates to an instructor with limited understanding of Aikido, but no one will see that, because he will win fights based on size and strength, not aikido. And when people who are smaller and weaker try to do what Sensei Sly does, the technique would likely not work. Is that good for aikido then?

Is everything Sensei Sly doing wrong? No, his basics are sound and the techniques are executed with immense grace. However, the techniques themselves are flawed, because they are not combative. They were meant to teach people the principles of aikido. Leading, form and atemi. In short, these moves are kata, and one does not learn how to fight by kata alone.

What Sensei Sly is doing then, is simply teaching kata. Again and again, with variations and additions. But he is not delving into the ideas of the kata, the principles of the form, and applying these principles to combat. He is just repeating the movements. It is no issue for him, Sensei Sly is strong, if aikido fails, he has other training to fall back on. But what about the guy who has only aikido to depend on when shit hits the fan?

These are functional forms of Aikido. Stanley Pranin's aikido has something called the 'zone theory' which talks about position in relation to an attacking opponent. Johnathan Hay sensei breaks down the form, and teaches how to use the derived elements against an attacker. This video;

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q89P...7F69A&index=64

People believed that the earth was flat because they did not know better. But we have the direct teachings from O sensei in the form of books and videos. Gozo Shioda sensei's yoshinkan has embodied the pure basics of aikido in their style, and the techniques we have now are what O'sensei and his direct students used to train with. We know better, and while we may not know what Aikido's future is, we should at least know what Aikido is fundamentally.

There is a difference between functionality, and brute force. No one is better than the other, but as Aikidoka, we owe it to our juniors and students to be able, and to differentiate one from the other.

Sensei Sly is not wrong. It's just that he isn't doing anything better.
  Reply With Quote
Old 09-02-2015, 09:52 AM   #35
kewms
Join Date: Aug 2002
Posts: 1,316
Offline
Re: Crisis of Faith

Quote:
Mary Malmros wrote: View Post
Or it may. Human history has a long list of groups (ethnic, religious, political, what have you) that were targeted by others for no damn good reason whatsoever. We have plenty of them, and we also have a lengthy history of telling people in those groups that the reason they're being attacked is their own fault. So, while there's no specific indication that that's the case here, I have considerable qualms about your statement as written.
Human history also contains enormous numbers of young men with nothing better to do than get in fights. Typically, when the police show up, both sides in a fight will claim that they were just defending themselves.

We don't have enough information to conclude anything one way or another about the poster.

But it does seem to me that the number of people who express a need to protect themselves against random assaults is vastly out of proportion to the number of random assaults that actually occur. The vast majority of violent crimes are committed by someone known to the victim. Hence my observation that for most people the "random assault" scenario is probably not all that relevant to questions of practical self defense.

Katherine

Last edited by kewms : 09-02-2015 at 09:58 AM.
  Reply With Quote
Old 09-02-2015, 10:15 AM   #36
phitruong
Dojo: Charlotte Aikikai Agatsu Dojo
Join Date: Aug 2007
Posts: 1,896
United_States
Offline
Re: Crisis of Faith

Quote:
Julia Campbell wrote: View Post
I've been training a few years and am coming up on my first kyu test, though a date hasn't been scheduled yet. Though my teachers say I'm doing fine, I'm starting to feel more and more like there's nothing in my aikido, like I don't have anything to bring to the table. Like, I could never achieve making something work outside of a dojo environment with a cooperative uke, that my successes are just due to the charity of my partners not stopping me, that the skills I've worked on building aren't skills at all, just illusions coming from the fact that my partner intends things to work rather than intending things not to work. Of course, it's self-reinforcing: the more I doubt, the less things work, and the more I conclude I should be doubting.

I've heard that a lot of people go through a similar crisis at some point in their training. If you've had an experience like that, please share. What was it like? Was there anything that helped get you out of it? Or make it work for you? Do you have any advice you can give?

Thanks!
Saw the heading as "Crisis of Faith" and i thought "hey! aikido is a religion!"
methink, the problem might be that you practice the catholics aikido. maybe you want to switch to episcopal aikido. it's the same as catholics aikido, but with half the guilt.

whenever i have problem like that, i usually focus on the hardest technique, which happens to be the secret technique, which written in the secret scroll of martial arts (which the NSA has multiple copies somewhere their vaults) - show up.

you have problems, solve them. crisis of faith, go see a priest or a guru (although this might involved climbing some mountain in search for a cave where most guru hangout after work friday night and shooting the breeze and discussing problem about folks who keep asking the same stupid question - what is the meaning of life! which most guru would yell at you "get a life already!" and get out of my cave so i can drink this awful concoction that i brew up the other day with some strange mushroom i found at the back of the cave!" come to think of it, O Sensei did a lot of mushroom in his days).

btw, if you run into a southern baptist aikido, please let me know so i can check them out to see what it's like. i wonder if it involves iriminage people in the middle of the river.

"budo is putting on cold, wet, sweat stained gi with a smile and a snarl" - your truly
http://charlotteaikikai.org
  Reply With Quote
Old 09-02-2015, 10:49 AM   #37
jonreading
 
jonreading's Avatar
Dojo: Aikido South (formerly Emory Aikikai)
Location: Atlanta, Georgia
Join Date: Aug 2004
Posts: 1,069
United_States
Offline
Re: Crisis of Faith

The aikido curriculum is very similar to common jujutsu techniques. I think as a core critical evaluation, we want to consider how our techniques apply at a basic jujutsu level. I think a legitimate argument exists that there is aikido out there does not function at even a basic level. I think focusing an argument at this level makes for a pretty easy claim that is difficult to defend.

At some point, aiki differentiates us from our jujutsu curriculum. At some point in time we change the way we do things and that wrist twist should feel different. I think as a critical evaluation, we should ask ourselves if we feel the same as we did two or three years ago. We shouldn't. One of the best compliments I believe you can receive is when you train with a partner who can identify that you feel different than your previous training experience. I do not think everyone who trains in aikido transcends their jujutsu education. As a point of commentary, I am not sure everyone is capable of that change.

I believe that one of aikido's broken promises is that you can throw anyone... if you just train long enough. Aiki is not for everyone and I think we need to be OK with that. But I can appreciate the argument that aikido people spend a lot of time defending why their stuff doesn't work and why the inquiry is misplaced. A critical evaluation question you should ask yourself is, "can I do what i want to do?" If that answer is "no," then change your training. If the answer is "yes," then defend your perspective and scope of knowledge.

Aikido is fighting with control and creativity. You can do other things with that knowledge, but its core training is fighting. Self-defense is justified assault. It's a legal term that gives us permission to beat up someone because of mitigating circumstances. If you cannot beat up someone under any circumstance, then it is almost impossible to use your body for "self-defense." Yes, I understand that something magical might happen if your life was on the line. Or the lives of your family. Yes, throwing out the rule book might get you somewhere if you gouge out an eye or bite off an ear. Good martial artists are generally unconditionally good - that is, you can appreciate their skill in a variety of circumstances. I think a critical question to ask yourself is, "am I a more capable fighting than I was before?" I understand some people don't prioritize fighting, but knowing and not doing is not the same as not knowing.

There are good arguments and bad arguments concerning the efficacy of any art. I try to keep my eyes on my own paper to figure out how I can play nice with others.

  Reply With Quote
Old 09-02-2015, 11:01 AM   #38
kewms
Join Date: Aug 2002
Posts: 1,316
Offline
Re: Crisis of Faith

Quote:
Jon Reading wrote: View Post
At some point, aiki differentiates us from our jujutsu curriculum. At some point in time we change the way we do things and that wrist twist should feel different. I think as a critical evaluation, we should ask ourselves if we feel the same as we did two or three years ago. We shouldn't. One of the best compliments I believe you can receive is when you train with a partner who can identify that you feel different than your previous training experience. I do not think everyone who trains in aikido transcends their jujutsu education. As a point of commentary, I am not sure everyone is capable of that change.
I think there are quite a few people who would object to the claim that "aiki" is unique to aikido.

Katherine
  Reply With Quote
Old 09-02-2015, 11:35 AM   #39
Cliff Judge
Location: Kawasaki, Kanagawa
Join Date: Sep 2005
Posts: 1,267
Japan
Offline
Re: Crisis of Faith

Quote:
Katherine Derbyshire wrote: View Post
I think there are quite a few people who would object to the claim that "aiki" is unique to aikido.

Katherine
Its more like, the so-called Aiki arts are the jujutsu arts that are defined by an apparently rigid distinction between the "aiki" and the "ju".
  Reply With Quote
Old 09-02-2015, 12:02 PM   #40
Krystal Locke
Location: Phoenix, Oregon
Join Date: Jun 2004
Posts: 395
United_States
Offline
Re: Crisis of Faith

I found that taking an event security job went a long way toward removing my doubt in aikido's effectiveness. Aikido is just right for what I do.

I also watch Sly's videos. They're hype. He disses his own art, then he demonstrates it. He's right that different schools train in different ways, and he's wrong that only his aikido experience works. That said, I do like the aikido he demonstrates.

Try some of Roy Dean's videos. Interesting bridge between aikido and bjj.
  Reply With Quote
Old 09-02-2015, 12:03 PM   #41
mathewjgano
 
mathewjgano's Avatar
Dojo: Tsubaki Kannagara Jinja Aikidojo; Himeji Shodokan Dojo
Location: Renton
Join Date: Feb 2005
Posts: 2,211
United_States
Offline
Re: Crisis of Faith

Quote:
Phi Truong wrote: View Post
...whenever i have problem like that, i usually focus on the hardest technique, which happens to be the secret technique...show up.

you have problems, solve them.
Funny, but I was having a related experience last night at keiko. This isn't to say showing up anywhere will always yield the same results, but with the proper mindset I think showing up anywhere can yield positive results from which to grow.
I would guess the Golden Mean Phi (or the Golden Mean Matt) starts with 1+1 before you can get to 144 or 233?

Quote:
Krystal wrote:
Try some of Roy Dean's videos. Interesting bridge between aikido and bjj.
I like his videos a lot. Also, speaking of bridging a gap, I have found that playing with a Wing Chun practicioner has been useful for showing how what I already do can work, and how it might feel different under different circumstances. When everything happens in the "sweet spot" it looks and feels like Aikido; it's how to adjust outside that "sweet spot" that feels clunky and helps me to pinpoint where I should be within my own structure. It's a process, full of slop and beauty.

Last edited by mathewjgano : 09-02-2015 at 12:17 PM.

Gambarimashyo!
  Reply With Quote
Old 09-02-2015, 12:13 PM   #42
jonreading
 
jonreading's Avatar
Dojo: Aikido South (formerly Emory Aikikai)
Location: Atlanta, Georgia
Join Date: Aug 2004
Posts: 1,069
United_States
Offline
Re: Crisis of Faith

Quote:
Katherine Derbyshire wrote: View Post
I think there are quite a few people who would object to the claim that "aiki" is unique to aikido.

Katherine
I would hope so. And for the record, I am not of the mind "aiki" is unique to aikido. But, I think that is a higher level of application and most of the function arguments against aikido people will start to run into problems when applied against people actually using aiki. If that makes sense...

  Reply With Quote
Old 09-02-2015, 01:35 PM   #43
jdm4life
Join Date: Mar 2014
Posts: 52
United_States
Offline
Re: Crisis of Faith

Quote:
Mary Malmros wrote: View Post
Or it may. Human history has a long list of groups (ethnic, religious, political, what have you) that were targeted by others for no damn good reason whatsoever. We have plenty of them, and we also have a lengthy history of telling people in those groups that the reason they're being attacked is their own fault. So, while there's no specific indication that that's the case here, I have considerable qualms about your statement as written.
Agreed..........a little presumptuous perhaps.

I've had...............2 or 3 scuffles in 32 years which is pretty good going. The worlds a f##ked up place and people can attack you just because you happened to look at them. My brother had a guy get out of a car in front of him at a roundabout and start shouting and balling in his face because he claimed my brother was calling him names and he could see him in the rear view mirror............my brother had music on and was singing. Just one example. He showed him his warrant badge and they guy got back in the car.

There are many individuals out there that are that highly strung that they will become aggressive at even the slightest thing and you could be targeted by any of them, one doesnt have to be paranoid to believe thats true.

Some folk just attack because they are in a shitty mood.....stranger things have happened. I think I am perhaps more likely to be targeted by such ludacrous behaviour due to being quiet natured and am an easy target because I keep to myself....its happened before and due to that I feel a little vunerable. , you dont have to be the type who looks for trouble for it to find you.. The worlds full of mentalists.

Last edited by jdm4life : 09-02-2015 at 01:48 PM.
  Reply With Quote
Old 09-02-2015, 06:49 PM   #44
Conrad Gus
 
Conrad Gus's Avatar
Dojo: Victoria Family Aikido
Location: Victoria, BC
Join Date: Dec 2001
Posts: 262
Canada
Offline
Re: Crisis of Faith

Funny this should come up today. I was sent a video of the Lenny Sly and had a good time watching it.

What he and other people don't realize is that there are "outside" and "inside" techniques. My Japanese Sensei called these "omote" and "ura". This is not "moving to the front" and "moving to the back" like we usually use the words. "Omote" is "shown" and "ura" is "hidden".

If you are a kyu-ranked person, you are likely doing "omote" techniques. Keep going, get to black belt and beyond, then start testing and refining and bugging good teachers about the other stuff.

Why do we do almost no atemi in practice?
Why do we have only softball attacks in practice?
Are all kokyunage bullshit?

More and more you will realize that there is a huge ocean of really practical stuff hidden inside all of these nice friendly aikido kata.

Some people like to only train the "omote" for ever, refining it to a higher and higher level. Other people don't know that the "ura" even exists. You don't magically become a capable fighter by practicing kata -- you have to go to the next level. My feeling is that Lenny Sly went looking for it and is very pissed off that he spent all that time (12 years, apparently) studying traditional aikido when what he really wanted to do was fighting aikido (jiu-jutsu).

Personally, I think that if you really want to learn aikido, you should learn the basics very well before you go looking for applicability. If you just want to learn unarmed combat, there is nothing wrong with finding a great teacher and going for that directly, but you will miss out on some of the stuff that aikido has that direct fighting styles do not.

Just my opinion.
  Reply With Quote
Old 09-02-2015, 07:09 PM   #45
Conrad Gus
 
Conrad Gus's Avatar
Dojo: Victoria Family Aikido
Location: Victoria, BC
Join Date: Dec 2001
Posts: 262
Canada
Offline
Re: Crisis of Faith

Re-reading my own post I realize that I fell into the trap of equating "traditional" aikido with "unrealistic" aikido. In reality, the more traditional the teacher, the more realistic their aikido probably is. Look at Shioda Sensei and other pre-war teachers - they are more likely to be practicing a "harder" style. When Lenny Sly refers to "traditional", he is really talking about "modern" (like the last 50 years or so), but it seems traditional to him. Ever heard of Bansen Tanaka? Yikes.
  Reply With Quote
Old 09-02-2015, 07:28 PM   #46
jdm4life
Join Date: Mar 2014
Posts: 52
United_States
Offline
Re: Crisis of Faith

Depending on my mood, I can get very ticked off with aikido and think I may as well just quit.......again......I think why subject myself to this immense frustration every week? It would cause less stress if I didnt bother going.............I still think that even as I notice some progression. Not sure what it stems from...ive been a perfectionist since I was 5 years old so its a hard habit to shake. I figure aikido practice probably does me more good than bad..even with a back issue which meant I missed all of last year...it shattered my confidence in my body and my belief I could physically do aikido again..........so the activity may help with that physical aspect as well as the mental challenges..so thats my reasons for training I guess....but I get very frustrated with it at some point most weeks........to the point where I don't enjoy it and I go home in a stinking mood......im sure I am not alone in feeling like that but it seems like flawed logic to continue putting myself in a position for that feeling to reoccur. Why cant I just lighten up and enjoy the process?

It took me so long to feel comfortable with the mae ukemi that I just hit a wall and did t want to even try to climb over it. Slowly as my confidence increased, the ukemi has become more and more natural and then I started to move forward....but I can still go some weeks and feel like a complete beginner with basic techniques I have done many many times.......its soul destroying.....Ive thought...well maybe I just suck, who knows but Id like to know the reason why this happens.

Last edited by jdm4life : 09-02-2015 at 07:40 PM.
  Reply With Quote
Old 09-03-2015, 06:15 AM   #47
G Sinclair
 
G Sinclair's Avatar
Dojo: Bushikan Aikido
Location: New England
Join Date: May 2005
Posts: 28
United_States
Offline
Re: Crisis of Faith

Quote:
Hansel Wong wrote: View Post
If I was younger, I would have called Sensei Sly a god. I believed that was how to train, harder, faster, with modern weapons. I pissed off partners and my instructors trying to to be harder and faster, thinking that that was how to get better.

After getting smacked around a bit more, I noticed something, I was small.

Sensei Sly, Steven Seagal, they were large. Muscular, hard men. Their size was an advantage, therefore a more direct style, more straight forward style, was something they would develop to suit their size.

But what about for the smaller guy? I am short, I am small. If I were to try and do what Sensei Sly did, I would just be rolled over. I gone up against a guy that was a head taller and heavier then me by a couple of pounds, light sparring, rolled over. Just got my face turned into a target.

Here is the thing, O sensei, Gozo Shioda Sensei, they were small, used aikido techniques, the same techniques we are training and using today, and they won. They won over people and showed that Aikido was a real martial art. It wasn't strength, or brute strength anyway, but superior technique that they had used to triumph, and that is what Aikido aims to teach, not fighting, but a superior way of fighting.

Sensei Sly has had only 16 years of Aikido training and size and strength. All this equates to an instructor with limited understanding of Aikido, but no one will see that, because he will win fights based on size and strength, not aikido. And when people who are smaller and weaker try to do what Sensei Sly does, the technique would likely not work. Is that good for aikido then?

Is everything Sensei Sly doing wrong? No, his basics are sound and the techniques are executed with immense grace. However, the techniques themselves are flawed, because they are not combative. They were meant to teach people the principles of aikido. Leading, form and atemi. In short, these moves are kata, and one does not learn how to fight by kata alone.

What Sensei Sly is doing then, is simply teaching kata. Again and again, with variations and additions. But he is not delving into the ideas of the kata, the principles of the form, and applying these principles to combat. He is just repeating the movements. It is no issue for him, Sensei Sly is strong, if aikido fails, he has other training to fall back on. But what about the guy who has only aikido to depend on when shit hits the fan?

These are functional forms of Aikido. Stanley Pranin's aikido has something called the 'zone theory' which talks about position in relation to an attacking opponent. Johnathan Hay sensei breaks down the form, and teaches how to use the derived elements against an attacker. This video;

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q89P...7F69A&index=64

People believed that the earth was flat because they did not know better. But we have the direct teachings from O sensei in the form of books and videos. Gozo Shioda sensei's yoshinkan has embodied the pure basics of aikido in their style, and the techniques we have now are what O'sensei and his direct students used to train with. We know better, and while we may not know what Aikido's future is, we should at least know what Aikido is fundamentally.

There is a difference between functionality, and brute force. No one is better than the other, but as Aikidoka, we owe it to our juniors and students to be able, and to differentiate one from the other.

Sensei Sly is not wrong. It's just that he isn't doing anything better.
Once again, you are missing the point.

Get on the mat with them and open your mind. You might be pleasantly surprised.

There is so much in your statement that is inaccurate. So much you are missing out on. I will just leave you with this: One of the greatest Tenshin Aikidoka on the planet was a man of small physical stature.

Get outside your comfort zone and learn something new. You might find out the Aikido world is not flat.

  Reply With Quote
Old 09-03-2015, 12:02 PM   #48
rugwithlegs
Dojo: Open Sky Aikikai
Location: Durham, NC
Join Date: Apr 2013
Posts: 302
United_States
Offline
Re: Crisis of Faith

Well...If I have the chance to study with him, I would enjoy the technical work and consider his insights. I am not above listening to anyone and debating the merits. I agree that tall people (ie Tomiki) developed different variations than short (ie Akira Tohei). Usually the force vector is a little shallower when you have better reach or more height, and shorter people tend to circle more or lead out. At 5'11" I am not able to count on being consistently taller or shorter.

Some wise man a long time ago said, "not all who cry Lord! Lord! will make it in to the kingdom of heaven. Likewise, I am not a member of this Flat Earth Society but not everyone who claims to have a solidly better method for training as Sly claims, no one has yet to prove to me that they have the "truth." The advice I see in the Dokka is don't bother fiddling with this variation or that variation, don't rely on secret variations, have an unlimited set of responses and act decisively without reserve. So, one man claiming to have one always correct algorithm for every possible thing that can happen in every possible form of combat - yes, I don't have the faith. The lack of an open mind - easier to think that applies to Sensei Sly than the other respondents here.
  Reply With Quote
Old 09-03-2015, 01:36 PM   #49
G Sinclair
 
G Sinclair's Avatar
Dojo: Bushikan Aikido
Location: New England
Join Date: May 2005
Posts: 28
United_States
Offline
Re: Crisis of Faith

Quote:
John Hillson wrote: View Post
Well...If I have the chance to study with him, I would enjoy the technical work and consider his insights. I am not above listening to anyone and debating the merits. I agree that tall people (ie Tomiki) developed different variations than short (ie Akira Tohei). Usually the force vector is a little shallower when you have better reach or more height, and shorter people tend to circle more or lead out. At 5'11" I am not able to count on being consistently taller or shorter.

Some wise man a long time ago said, "not all who cry Lord! Lord! will make it in to the kingdom of heaven. Likewise, I am not a member of this Flat Earth Society but not everyone who claims to have a solidly better method for training as Sly claims, no one has yet to prove to me that they have the "truth." The advice I see in the Dokka is don't bother fiddling with this variation or that variation, don't rely on secret variations, have an unlimited set of responses and act decisively without reserve. So, one man claiming to have one always correct algorithm for every possible thing that can happen in every possible form of combat - yes, I don't have the faith. The lack of an open mind - easier to think that applies to Sensei Sly than the other respondents here.
Just for full disclosure I want to make it clear that I do not know, train with, ever met, nor ever spoke a word with Sly Sensei. And just to be crystal clear, I am not qualified to comment on his technique, teaching style or approach to the art.

Does he have the secret algorithm you are seeking? I do not know. But I applaud your willingness to share the mat with him and take in what he has to offer.

The first time I trained in Tenshin Aikido I was frightened. Seriously frightened. Then, forty-five minutes later I walked away with a broad new perspective and a completely different approach to Aikido.

It was unexpectedly enlightening.

An experience I watch many people talk themselves out of. Then try to convince others to talk themselves out of too.

I hope to meet you on the mat someday!

  Reply With Quote
Old 09-03-2015, 03:11 PM   #50
rugwithlegs
Dojo: Open Sky Aikikai
Location: Durham, NC
Join Date: Apr 2013
Posts: 302
United_States
Offline
Re: Crisis of Faith

Well, I am not so much seeking any short cut algorithm as commenting on the "that group's Aikido doesn't work, my Aikido works" comments that were, well, not in short supply in that video. He's not the first one nor the only one to claim to be/know/teach/study the real deal nor the first or only to claim others are a waste of time.
  Reply With Quote

Please visit our sponsor:

AikiWeb Sponsored Links - Place your Aikido link here for only $10!



Reply


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
doubt and faith chris w General 7 11-23-2006 05:23 PM
Training for Crisis? Erick Mead Training 29 10-20-2006 08:44 AM
Article: Keeping the Faith by Ross Robertson AikiWeb System AikiWeb System 2 06-10-2005 08:39 AM
True Power of Faith in Aikido Kensho Furuya Voices of Experience 4 11-04-2003 02:10 PM
Christianity and Akido *** Spiritual 56 08-26-2002 12:00 PM


All times are GMT -6. The time now is 11:15 PM.



vBulletin Copyright © 2000-2016 Jelsoft Enterprises Limited
----------
Copyright 1997-2016 AikiWeb and its Authors, All Rights Reserved.
----------
For questions and comments about this website:
Send E-mail
plainlaid-picaresque outchasing-protistan explicantia-altarage seaford-stellionate