Welcome to AikiWeb Aikido Information
AikiWeb: The Source for Aikido Information
AikiWeb's principal purpose is to serve the Internet community as a repository and dissemination point for aikido information.

Sections
home
aikido articles
columns

Discussions
forums
aikiblogs

Databases
dojo search
seminars
image gallery
supplies
links directory

Reviews
book reviews
video reviews
dvd reviews
equip. reviews

News
submit
archive

Miscellaneous
newsletter
rss feeds
polls
about

Follow us on



Home > AikiWeb Aikido Forums
Go Back   AikiWeb Aikido Forums > Language

Hello and thank you for visiting AikiWeb, the world's most active online Aikido community! This site is home to over 22,000 aikido practitioners from around the world and covers a wide range of aikido topics including techniques, philosophy, history, humor, beginner issues, the marketplace, and more.

If you wish to join in the discussions or use the other advanced features available, you will need to register first. Registration is absolutely free and takes only a few minutes to complete so sign up today!

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old 07-22-2015, 08:37 PM   #26
rugwithlegs
Dojo: Open Sky Aikikai
Location: Durham, NC
Join Date: Apr 2013
Posts: 326
United_States
Offline
Re: A question about Shihonage!

Well, we're off topic now but I like this topic better anyway. In terms of falling in and out of myth, I think martial arts in general subscribe heavily to this.

An old post: http://john-hillson.blogspot.com/201...-metaphor.html

The names in Aikido have a history that changes with every organization if not every teacher. Ikkyo is not actually used by every association. Ikkajo from Daito Ryu is actually a collection of two dozen individually named techniques. Omote and Ura are old terms but seem to change all the time in their use. I am told this is an issue that native Japanese speakers don't have, just monolinguists like me trying to apply set rules to a foreign language.

My Sensei made a definite distinction between Morote Dori Kokyu Ho and Sokumen Iriminage; now they both get called Kokyunage in my new dojo. The Saito Sensei book on Kokyunage is largely what I've come to call Sokumen Iriminage, Shomen Ate, Udekimenage, Tenchinage and a few others. Kokyunage is a bit of a pet peeve as it is so widely applied sometimes that it is nearly meaningless. Why is Kote Hineri now Sankyo, Kote Mawashi is Nikyo, but Kote Gaeshi was never given a number? Why do we have technique number 1-5 or 6, but the technique explicitly called "10" is not part of the series? My own little theory is that our language communicates more about lineage and allegiance than technical information.

In looking into the history of a name or the use of a name, some very fascinating bits of information come out. I understand O Sensei used many metaphors and his language was quite dense. Difficult to understand, and any understanding I ever had deserves to be taken with some salt, but this is our art and our history. I like to explore the names.

More value to training, but working on understanding has some value too.
  Reply With Quote
Old 07-22-2015, 10:02 PM   #27
robin_jet_alt
Join Date: Jun 2011
Posts: 622
Australia
Offline
Re: A question about Shihonage!

Quote:
John Hillson wrote: View Post
Why do we have technique number 1-5 or 6, but the technique explicitly called "10" is not part of the series?
Um, what? If you are talking about jujinage I will facepalm, but I'll give you the benefit of the doubt here and assume that I'm missing something.
  Reply With Quote
Old 07-22-2015, 11:22 PM   #28
rugwithlegs
Dojo: Open Sky Aikikai
Location: Durham, NC
Join Date: Apr 2013
Posts: 326
United_States
Offline
Re: A question about Shihonage!

Thanks for the benefit of the doubt. I am merely giving myself permission to ask if I missed something.

The Daito Ryu name is Karaminage, O Sensei didn't use it. Karaminage is part of the Hiden Mokuroku Ikkajo - some schools do call Juji a variation on Ikkyo (which the other "Kyo" techniques are, and some keep them separate. There are only five kata named by numbers in Daito Ryu (Ikkajo to Gokajo) but some Aikido people do have a Rokkyo and some claim numbers all the way to ten, though not involving Jujigarami. Most of the core techniques can be pins, throws, koshinage, atemi Waza and kansetsu Waza, and Jujigarami fits this bill.

My own teacher used Jujigarami, which implied he did not exclusively consider it a throw. The one translation of O Sensei's lectures showed a horizontal line representing earth, and a vertical line meaning heaven, and that raised the possibility for me that the Ju cross could be one of his symbols for the unity of Heaven and Earth, so did he think Tenchinage and Jujinage had any connection? Also, if you do a Morote Dori or a two handed ushiro attack, the top hand as you circle will be Ikkyo to Yonkyo, the bottom hand will be Kotegaeshi/Shihonage, and as you transition between the horizontal and vertical kuzushi techniques, there is Jujigarami - it is related to both groups of techniques. Every time you circle, the hands change and Jujigarami appears again. And yes, it is still a number and we use numbers in our technical designations, and does that mean anything?

Yes, I have been told that Juji just means cross, same as it is used in Shotokan karate. It implies a very pedantic and simple translation of a man who was known for religious imagery in his teaching and for difficult to comprehend lectures. The name might not even be from O Sensei, maybe from his students so it could be just the obvious answer now. Were the names set, No, if they were we'd all be using the same language and we're not.

I give myself permission to wonder if the obvious one-note answer is all there is to the name. O Sensei died before I was born, so I never had the chance to ask him. It's most important to just practice, but I like to stretch my understanding off the mat.

Last edited by rugwithlegs : 07-22-2015 at 11:25 PM. Reason: Clarity
  Reply With Quote
Old 07-23-2015, 02:08 AM   #29
robin_jet_alt
Join Date: Jun 2011
Posts: 622
Australia
Offline
Re: A question about Shihonage!

Well, as a J > E translator, I never think of the word Juji as having anything to do with the number 10. It is simply a word for cross, which is derived from the shape of the kanji for the number 10. You will find it in such terms as jujika - crucifix and jujiro - 4-way intersection, neither of which have anything to do with the number 10. Given that, it is pretty clear that the name is just a description of the crossed position of the arms. Whether it is garami - entanglement, or nage - throw is not particularly important, in my view.

I honestly wouldn't read much into the names of techniques. They seem to be descriptions more than names, and of course, different people describe them differently.
  Reply With Quote
Old 07-23-2015, 01:36 PM   #30
rugwithlegs
Dojo: Open Sky Aikikai
Location: Durham, NC
Join Date: Apr 2013
Posts: 326
United_States
Offline
Re: A question about Shihonage!

Thanks for the examples. I do not claim any expertise in Japanese.

Chiba Sensei used the cross shape to call what I learned as Udekimenage and Tenbinage as Jujinage. Some names are overused, some are like you said used differently from one association to the next. The larger issue then becomes how do we communicate effectively outside of our own dojo.

The names are descriptive sometimes, and sometimes not - what does Ikkyo describe?

As an aside, the Chinese Art of Baguazhang - the character for 8 resembles the distinctive footwork for fast changes of direction, and is also thought to refer to the 8 trigrams of the Yi Jing. In asking a teacher which it is, I can be told the correct answer is one or the other, both, or neither.

I don't stress about the names much, but I like coming across new ideas.

Any insights on the rest of the questions?
  Reply With Quote
Old 07-23-2015, 02:53 PM   #31
JW
 
JW's Avatar
Location: Escondido CA USA
Join Date: Aug 2000
Posts: 560
Offline
Re: A question about Shihonage!

Well people like to whimsically use names to say one thing while referring loosely to another. It's a poetry that is part of what makes culture be alive I think. Bagua explicitly means "eight trigrams" (referring to the diagrams). Thinking about the shape of the character for eight to add a layer of meaning I think is just whimsy. (Doesn't make it untrue, just whimsical, and not the fundamental meaning.)

Omote and ura actually have a meaning in the Japanese language. That meaning can directly apply to how martial techniques are understood by a person. But using those terms to refer to 2 variations of technique is just whimsical. It really means that there is a deeper, more important, and kind of hidden meaning in martial arts technique, but it's just kind of cute to have one of the variations (especially if it goes around the back) be referred to as ura. If I understand correctly.

I also wonder how the specific techniques from ikkajo, nikkajo etc got picked to take on those names. For instance the old name robuse is a better name for ikkyo I think. But in the end, I hope by design, it actually works out because the series of numbered techniques starting with ikkyo actually do form a series that progress in a specific, logical way.

And lastly-- I know "kokyunage" is not that useful as a term in that it is too nonspecific. But, I think it is a good term in that it basically means an applied throw where you use kokyu (rather than a training form to develop skills like kokyu). So from that point of view it is a term for "real" aiki throws-- so in that case we should consider them the crowning achievement of our training...
  Reply With Quote
Old 08-24-2015, 03:04 AM   #32
observer
Location: Santa Barbara, CA
Join Date: Feb 2006
Posts: 87
United_States
Offline
Re: A question about Shihonage!

With full respect, all the explanations do not make much sense. In my opinion, the number 4 in the name of the technique represents 4 sides of the world. It means full turn under an opponent hand.
  Reply With Quote

Please visit our sponsor:

AikiWeb Sponsored Links - Place your Aikido link here for only $10!



Reply


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Transmission, Inheritance, Emulation 12 Peter Goldsbury Columns 32 05-16-2009 07:05 PM
Brawling with a friend Luc X Saroufim General 227 07-17-2006 08:33 PM
My answer to a very good question: Charlie General 1 08-02-2005 08:10 AM
Article: Thoughts on Bugei Studies by Karl Friday AikiWeb System Training 28 04-27-2002 06:21 PM
Question about clothing Shouri (Steve) General 3 07-26-2000 10:44 AM


All times are GMT -6. The time now is 10:46 AM.



vBulletin Copyright © 2000-2016 Jelsoft Enterprises Limited
----------
Copyright 1997-2016 AikiWeb and its Authors, All Rights Reserved.
----------
For questions and comments about this website:
Send E-mail
plainlaid-picaresque outchasing-protistan explicantia-altarage seaford-stellionate