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Old 07-03-2015, 02:17 PM   #26
NagaBaba
 
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Re: You are giving me the wrong energy...WTF

Quote:
Katherine Derbyshire wrote: View Post
If someone is determined to foil a particular technique, he will probably succeed.
I disagree Katherine. There are very many examples, even from world level judo players, that they know exactly what technique will be applied and trying actively prevent it and counter. And finally this technique passes likes a charm. It is a question of complete mastery of this particular technique. And that is our goal, isn't it?
Quote:
It's very difficult to execute iriminage if your partner responds to the initial entry by bending forward at the waist.
I disagree again. If you allow him to bend, he will bend. It is Nage job to create environment where attacker has no choice but to follow Nage will. remember what O sensei said: "a techniques is successfully finished in the moment when idea of attack is born in attacker's head"
Quote:
Now, "out there," who cares. If he's going to bend over like that, I'll happily introduce his head to my knee, or to the ground. Fine.

But in the dojo, with Sensei expecting me to demonstrate iriminage, or with me in front of a class trying to teach the technique? Yeah, I might explain that this particular ukemi is not going to facilitate that particular technique.

I hope I never use the phrase "giving me the wrong energy," though. That's just lame.

Katherine
On the flip side if you allow him to bend he will happily do double leg takedown before you even blink. You may easily test it with your local college wrestlers.
Of course if someone is 6 kyu, full attacker's cooperation is necessary, when sensei demo iriminage, but not at your level Katherine

Last edited by NagaBaba : 07-03-2015 at 02:26 PM.

Nagababa

ask for divine protection Ame no Murakumo Kuki Samuhara no Ryuo
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Old 07-03-2015, 02:26 PM   #27
NagaBaba
 
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Re: You are giving me the wrong energy...WTF

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Amir Krause wrote: View Post
Hi

Not knowing you, nor coming from your school, this is a bit difficult to answer.

However, I wish to repeat the above statement:
when doing Kata, you should do that Kata to the best of your ability and you should forget your knowledge of employed technique.

Not sure what kind of definition of "kata" you are using here, but I'm afraid, there is no "kata" training in aikido similar to kata training in DR where every single detail must be exactly the same as sensei demo. O sensei broke with this kind of methodology.

But generally I like you approach.

Nagababa

ask for divine protection Ame no Murakumo Kuki Samuhara no Ryuo
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Old 07-03-2015, 02:33 PM   #28
NagaBaba
 
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Re: You are giving me the wrong energy...WTF

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Richard Campbell wrote: View Post
Arigato Aikido brother from another mother.

I would like to train with you! No nonsense Aikido?
Be careful what you wish, it can come to reality one day…it will not be piece of cake

Nagababa

ask for divine protection Ame no Murakumo Kuki Samuhara no Ryuo
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Old 07-03-2015, 03:24 PM   #29
kewms
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Re: You are giving me the wrong energy...WTF

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Szczepan Janczuk wrote: View Post
On the flip side if you allow him to bend he will happily do double leg takedown before you even blink. You may easily test it with your local college wrestlers.
Of course if someone is 6 kyu, full attacker's cooperation is necessary, when sensei demo iriminage, but not at your level Katherine
Not sure how one does a double leg takedown when one's head is planting into the mat, one's back is to nage, and one's feet are in the air... You're visualizing something completely different from what I have in mind.

As for judo, it's a sport martial art, and therefore many techniques and counter-techniques are just against the rules so no one tries them (or learns them). Moreover, since *both* participants in a world-level match know exactly which technique they want to apply, but only one of them (at most) will be able to do so, I don't think it can be said that even world-level practitioners can *always* execute their desired technique.

Katherine
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Old 07-03-2015, 04:58 PM   #30
rugwithlegs
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Re: You are giving me the wrong energy...WTF

@Janczuk: Perhaps we can at least agree that if one movement is made difficult, another different movement becomes very easy?

There are always other tricks and variations, modifications that lead to something that might be given the same name by an onlooker, but the Awase and Kuzushi really isn't something I consider the same.

I do think the answers change for the rank - a raw beginner who doesn't know basic technique trying to do whatever they want on the mat needs guidance and oversight to stay safe and keep their partner safe. A senior Dan rank that wants to explore, test, give feedback...these are fun people to train with and learn from as I get more senior.

Some dojos and instructors would consider this poor etiquette, so I don't run off in this direction in just anyone's class.
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Old 07-03-2015, 08:45 PM   #31
robin_jet_alt
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Re: You are giving me the wrong energy...WTF

Quote:
Szczepan Janczuk wrote: View Post
I disagree again. If you allow him to bend, he will bend. It is Nage job to create environment where attacker has no choice but to follow Nage will. remember what O sensei said: "a techniques is successfully finished in the moment when idea of attack is born in attacker's head"
In a general sense, I agree with you. However, problems arise when you are training with beginners with little sense of self preservation. They tend to get hurt, and then I end up with nobody to train with.

Sure I can do the technique to them if I do it properly regardless of what they do, but if what they do is self destructive and likely to lead to an injury, I will most likely stop the technique and talk them through how they can safely receive the technique instead.
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Old 07-04-2015, 12:01 AM   #32
kewms
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Re: You are giving me the wrong energy...WTF

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Robin Boyd wrote: View Post
In a general sense, I agree with you. However, problems arise when you are training with beginners with little sense of self preservation. They tend to get hurt, and then I end up with nobody to train with.

Sure I can do the technique to them if I do it properly regardless of what they do, but if what they do is self destructive and likely to lead to an injury, I will most likely stop the technique and talk them through how they can safely receive the technique instead.
Exactly. Many things that are possible might not be wise in all circumstances.

Katherine
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Old 07-05-2015, 04:29 AM   #33
Amir Krause
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Re: You are giving me the wrong energy...WTF

Katherine

about "leg takedown":
Quote:
Katherine Derbyshire wrote: View Post
Not sure how one does a double leg takedown when one's head is planting into the mat, one's back is to nage, and one's feet are in the air... You're visualizing something completely different from what I have in mind.
If wrestlers and such are not easily available, the easy answer is to ask another practitioner of level similar to won to try and do it as a counter during your Irimi-Nage, and let him perfect it on you over a dozen times at least, than check if your own regular execution has an hole in it making it easy to employ (minor variations make a lot of difference in such things, hence I will not try to explain).

I have seen this done, and have done similar counters, there are nice opportunities for these reverse techniques, and I love this in Randori, however, it is also not too difficult to move and position oneself in a way blocking these techniques for similar level practitioner (an practitioner of significantly higher level can often do almost anything and even make it seem natural).

Amir
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