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Old 06-23-2015, 07:13 AM   #126
lbb
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Re: Trans Inclusive Aikido

I think people have to own their prejudices. If, at the heart, your reason for discomfort with a trans person in the dojo is "ick, I don't want one of THEM touching me", then for heaven's sake have the guts to say so.
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Old 06-23-2015, 08:49 AM   #127
Cliff Judge
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Re: Trans Inclusive Aikido

Quote:
Jonathan Wong wrote: View Post
There are lots of reasons that your desk or life may become messy, and lots of those reasons don't interfere at all with your ability to make a nice database. In fact they may help make the database better (more nuanced fields improve a database of many similar records-- but that level of detail can make your real life messy because differences rather than similarities get emphasized in a world where tasks/issues are not always very similar)."
Heck, when you think about it, someone who has struggled for years with whether they are really a boy of a girl is going to have a very deep understanding of the interrelationship between the masculine and feminine principles that make the universal wheel turn. Just a simple matter of having spent more time thinking about it.
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Old 06-23-2015, 11:47 AM   #128
Erick Mead
 
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Re: Trans Inclusive Aikido

Quote:
Jonathan Wong wrote: View Post
Well Erick, although I share your distaste for a lot of the gender issues in our culture, I still am apalled by lots of the things you are saying.
The idea that there are certain core aspects of (cis)gender that are good and true (in contrast to a peripheral "superstructure" that is bad) for example is shocking. You seem to be suggesting that there are 2 distinct desireable gender roles, that all couples should be heterosexual, and that no one should be transgender. I wouldn't be opposed to humanity moving forward away from having gender at all, but you seem to be talking about moving backwards, not forward.
The idea of "progress" as a general condition applicable to all aspects of human society, is just an idea -- not an extrinsic reality. It presupposes some unspecified utopian condition toward which we are collectively destined. There is nothing of this sort in evidence. One or two extinct dinosaurs and an asteroid have a quibble to offer with that contention.

Our singular destiny, individually and collectively in this world is the grave. The range of human responses to this fact is of three general types: 1) resigned acceptance; 2) desperate denial; 3) belief in a revealed hope. The first tends to quietistic contemplation and measured living with little by way of desire for enduring material accomplishment. The second tends to degrees of decadent nihilism, of as much experience as possible, and either no desire for enduring material accomplishment -- or else extremes of monumental ego magnification. The third tends to be at once more serious and more carefree about life, and does not shrink from either seeking joyful exuberance or stoic, stolid accomplishments. I have known nominal Christians, Buddhists, atheists and others of all three types. I tend to think that the third is the most true -- or at the very least, pace Voltaire -- the most useful.

Quote:
Your comments suggest you favor the flesh as primary. Meaning that consciousness is inarguably in error in transgender people.... information (ideas, personality) come to life. ... I just don't think flesh is primary for personhood. (Yes, the flesh generates the consciousness, but once you have a conscious being, personhood is assigned to the consciousness, not the flesh.) ... And in the future if we figure out how to upload consciousness to a computer or something, I would hope to also still be a person.
OK, so you agree that gender, like the other many attributes of personality, are generated by a brain, and are not the same as sex.
So fundamentally, what in essence is a person? A lump of flesh, or a consciousness? Which is primary and which is peripheral?
Neither. Your view of the primacy of mind is not anything new -- it is basically Gnostic. My point of view is not the primacy of matter over mind, either. My point of view is incarnational -- the mind/spirit and the body are one and inseparable. My hope is not the technological singularity -- but in the resurrection. Interesting transposition, though, -- don't you think?

A person is their soul/mind and the body that both shapes it and is shaped by it. Either or both can be rightly or wrongly ordered, and by virtue of one, the other can also become disordered in turn -- or can be put into a better order than it may be at any given point. For good or ill we are adaptable -- the question is whether we adapt ourselves toward good or toward ill.

Quote:
A person who thinks he came from the future or was resurrected actually did not come from the future or get resurrected, so he is mistaken.
How do you know that? You have no better claim to say that he is not from the future than to say that Bruce Jenner is not a woman -- if all that matters is their internal state of mind. But matter matters, too. The material evidence of time travel is far more debatable, depending on your standard of belief in evidence. You just lack trust in the crazy guy telling you that he is from the future. The material evidence that Bruce Jenner is a man seems less uncertain.

But in fact, you rely on a chain of witnesses even for that very reasonable belief as to the fact that Bruce Jenner is man. It is not dependent on the number in the chain -- you didn't believe the crazy guy from the future and he is telling you directly, and you still don't believe him. The only question is one of the degree of trust we respectively place in our particular chain of witnesses on the report of those facts of concern to us. When it comes to Bruce Jenner's maleness, I am no doubting Thomas, and will need no direct empirical evidence, thank you. -- What matters more than MY acceptance of it, though-- is HIS acceptance of it. He does not trust even himself, and that is not a healthy way to be.

Christians and Jews have a chain of witnesses they trust as to the aspects of truth that were given to them and its source. So, I have no more problem saying that a man was resurrected from the dead, or has travelled in time (as you might view the events on Tabor) than you might in saying that Bruce Jenner is a man, and with no more personal knowledge of that fact that you take on a chain of trust.

Quote:
Culture flourishes when information (ideas, personality) come to life, and it is inhibited in times when survival of the flesh is the only concern.
Amen. Alleluia. And I would add: Culture flourishes when the truth of the flesh also flourishes, and it is inhibited in times when ideas and personality become the only concern.

Jews, for example, were never any offense to the bodies of Germans -- they became offensive to an idea of some Germans -- a deadly, disordered and evil idea that possessed them and drove their actions against the bodily existence of the Jews. The parallel in disorders of a mistaken idea that our own bodies are an offense to our desires-- is a similar type of evil and affliction -- just writ smaller.

And when our trust dies in what makes us truly human -- culture dies with it -- and then we become -- not merely no better than other animals -- we indisputably can become far, far worse.

Cordially,

Erick Mead
一隻狗可久里馬房但他也不是馬的.
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Old 06-23-2015, 12:25 PM   #129
Fred Little
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Re: Trans Inclusive Aikido

Quote:
Erick Mead wrote: View Post
I tend to think that the third is the most true -- or at the very least, pace Voltaire -- the most useful.
Perhaps you believe that this is what you tend to think, but you have yet to convince this reader that you have done anything more than concoct exceedingly verbose -- even by my standards -- pseudo-rational explanations for your (willfully unexamined) feelings, and pretend that these assertions are reasons for a well considered position, when there is every evidence that they are nothing more than after-the-fact rationalizations intended to prevent any careful examination of the feelings you express so vehemently that the entire exercise suggests that you yourself are the target of your own argument.

FL

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Old 06-23-2015, 01:19 PM   #130
JW
 
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Re: Trans Inclusive Aikido

Wow, unfamiliar gender states are akin to nazi anti-semetic genocide?? Good thing the thread didn't die or else I don't think I would have really understood the depth of your feelings on this. Let's see what else you might like to add.

Quote:
Erick Mead wrote: View Post
The material evidence that Bruce Jenner is a man seems less uncertain.
Genders are abstract categories. There is no material evidence to be had. The time travel claim is a claim about an event (going back in time) that either happened or did not. The claim of being a woman is a claim about what abstract category a personality fits into.

Our mainstream culture has 2 genders. But a cursory internet search reveals to me that anthropologists have observed cultures with 5, 3, and even no genders. A cultural relativist might say they are wrong or stupid, and we are right.

To me, it seems instead that humans have an instinctual urge to categorize things. We categorize personalities as well as anything else. But the point of categorizing people seems to be simply to settle on a category for the purpose of socialization, without any right or wrong.
That explains
- culturally-dependent variability in number of genders
- most common number of genders being 2 (because biological sex can so easily dominate our perception)
- a rare but compelling feeling in some people that their gender doesn't line up with the common assumptions about sex and gender (because categorization does not completely depend on a single criterion that tends to usually dominate)

In other words the root of the phenomenon of gender would be that we want (as a group of sentient beings) to have some "types" of people. We each want to be categorizable, and want each other to be as well. From there, any number of categories would be valid, as long as the group adheres to it. So how many categories should a group pick? Some culutres say, well, flesh seems to have 2 categories so let's also have 2 categories for people. That's an arbitrary choice! Other people can choose 3 or 5, and none of them are "right." We just want some categories as a foundation for socialization of people (who, I assert, are fundamentally not flesh but are consciousness, which does not intrinsically have a sex to begin with).

------
ps
For the record, I was too sleepy before-- what I meant to say in the other post was that if I lost most of my body to an accident or to a medical intervention (like amputation), I would still be a person, even if I lost the maximum amount of body that is medically possible at the time (that fraction will only go up with time and technological advancement). So by the same token if I lose my genitals I would still be a man.
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Old 06-23-2015, 01:52 PM   #131
Erick Mead
 
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Re: Trans Inclusive Aikido

Quote:
Fred Little wrote: View Post
Perhaps you believe that this is what you tend to think, ... the entire exercise suggests that you yourself are the target of your own argument.
KWATZ!



.. and... to steal a line: "What I have written, I have written..."

Cordially,

Erick Mead
一隻狗可久里馬房但他也不是馬的.
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Old 06-23-2015, 02:20 PM   #132
Erick Mead
 
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Re: Trans Inclusive Aikido

Quote:
Jonathan Wong wrote: View Post
Wow, unfamiliar gender states are akin to nazi anti-semetic genocide?? Good thing the thread didn't die or else I don't think I would have really understood the depth of your feelings on this. Let's see what else you might like to add.
Hate of other begins in love of self -- or, more precisely, the image of the self. Both the other and the self are merely fun-house mirrors for desires. The first is merely the disillusionment of the second. This happens all the time in small ways, and in large ones -- like the notorious example given.

Quote:
Genders are abstract categories. There is no material evidence to be had.
Nonsense. Innie or outie -- there's a material distinction. Gender is the cultural expression of the incidents of sexual difference. The idea of gender can be more or less true to the facts of sex. The less true, the less valuable the idea or category -- at least in my world.

Quote:
The time travel claim is a claim about an event (going back in time) that either happened or did not.
Funny thing -- time travel can both never happen and always have happened -- depending on your point of view of or in the timeline. Plus, if I only can go forward in time -- is it time travel? Or is it the supposed violation of causality that excites with the idea of it? It is very interesting to me that time travel comes up, unbidden, as an example in this discussion. If Everett were right about the nature of the wave function and the multiplicity of reality -- it is probably a meaningless question -- either way.

Quote:
To me, it seems instead that humans have an instinctual urge to categorize things.
... for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God .... or to quote a naturalist on the character of God, He is "inordinately fond of beetles..."

Quote:
... we want (as a group of sentient beings) to have some "types" of people. We each want to be categorizable, and want each other to be as well. From there, any number of categories would be valid, as long as the group adheres to it.
Even in wholly arbitrary categories we nonetheless must mind which one we are operating at any given time. For the left-driving world a "Keep Left" sign is an important safety tip, for the right-driving world it is an invitation to a disaster. But some categories are true and some are false. Gender categories that adhere closely to the facts of biologically sexed human beings are more true to the facts that they culturally represent than those that don't.

The true outliers in terms of biological sexes (fitting neither category) are exceedingly rare cases that are simply non-sexed -- i.e -- not categorizable at all according to sex. But that has nothing to do with the actually sexed gender categories. To invent some new "gender" categories is to simply and totally sever the connection of the category to any sex at all. But then it is not any longer a set of gender categories, but something totally unrelated to sex -- and more like politics -- but I repeat myself.

Last edited by Erick Mead : 06-23-2015 at 02:22 PM.

Cordially,

Erick Mead
一隻狗可久里馬房但他也不是馬的.
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Old 06-24-2015, 12:02 AM   #133
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Re: Trans Inclusive Aikido

Quote:
Erick Mead wrote: View Post
Nonsense. Innie or outie -- there's a material distinction. Gender is the cultural expression of the incidents of sexual difference.
Erick, you are confusing sex and gender again. I thought we had moved past this. I invite you to reread my recent posts from the point of view that they are seriously presenting an idea that gender is truly a separate thing from biological sex. I'll highlight the connection b/w the two below.

The fact is we don't know how or why gender arises (biologically speaking). We do know a lot about how sex differences arise. And we know lots of species have sexual dimorphism. But we don't know how our brains pull off this possibly human-specific task of creating a sense of "I am a woman" or "I am not a woman," or "you shouldn't/can't do that behavior because you are a woman." And, we don't know why it happens in the first place.

You seem to think you know the answers: you suggest "man" and "woman" are just names of the sexes and their corresponding sex differences in body and behavior. You suggest the reason is simply to facilitate sexual interaction in human social culture. (I think that is what you are saying anyway.)

The fact is that across the globe (see this informative interactive map from PBS documentary), there is lots of evidence that cultures develop an arbitrary number of genders in whatever way suits their needs. Western imperialism/colonialism may have changed how things play out in cultures, but it can never change the historical fact that when human cultures developed independently, they developed different gender categories-- even though we all share the same two biological sexes (anomalies aside).

What mechanism could account for this? Simply what I proposed before:
Humans have a built in propensity to categorize people into behavioral categories. (Remember I am also claiming that we perceive personhood in conscious minds, not in bodies.)

THAT then would be the root of gender, and you notice biological sex is not even in the picture yet. That comes next: species wide, there tends to be this one giant criterion that stands out, so that tends to commonly dominate the task of delineating categories. (I swear there were no puns intended in that sentence.) Other behaviorally relevant criteria can still be present as well, which accounts for cross-cultural variability.

So there you have it, a nice, simple model of where gender comes from, and it isn't from biological sex, at the basic level. It just commonly employs biological sex in the establishment of categories.

Quote:
Erick Mead wrote: View Post
Gender categories that adhere closely to the facts of biologically sexed human beings are more true to the facts that they culturally represent than those that don't.
I'd be fine with that statement if it were true that gender categories' job is to represent the fact of physiological sex. Per above, I contend that their job is not that. Their job is to represent a behavioral category. (Roughly speaking, "if you do this behavior that is normal for your gender, but if you do that, we will throw rocks at you.") Yes, knowledge of sex differences get used by the brain to inform the delineation of the categories. But there is a difference between a criterion commonly being used and the criterion being the thing that is represented. But I repeat myself. And, maybe a KWATZ there too, but it seems pretty simple to me. (And I didn't have to talk about quantum mechanics or time travel or nazis or the existential crisis of those who are without god!)

Look I'm no expert but I've just been thinking about this and I don't think what I am saying is very strange, logically. It just isn't what we're used to, coming from a culture that demands 2 genders that must map 1:1 onto the 2 sexes.
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Old 06-24-2015, 01:12 AM   #134
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Re: Trans Inclusive Aikido

If, like me, you found this "conversation" to be of little use despite the likely good intentions of everyone except the dickweed who posted that image macro, here is a resource I use occasionally and have found to be edifying:

http://community.pflag.org/getsupport

The folks at PFLAG really know their stuff.
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Old 06-24-2015, 11:23 AM   #135
Erick Mead
 
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Re: Trans Inclusive Aikido

Quote:
Jonathan Wong wrote: View Post
Erick, you are confusing sex and gender again. I thought we had moved past this.
Not really.

Quote:
I invite you to reread my recent posts from the point of view that they are seriously presenting an idea that gender is truly a separate thing from biological sex. I'll highlight the connection b/w the two below.
Your kind invitation is accepted but ... you are just wrong.

Quote:
The fact is we don't know how or why gender arises (biologically speaking).
Yes. Yes we do. It arises because a certain ordered pair of primates behaving in a certain way that primates are fond of behaving make little primates. In advanced primates, where management of this eventuality becomes the business of culture, we assign varied aspects of sex-linked behaviors that are expected or frowned upon for each sex, and with varying degrees of censure. That's why gender roles arise -- because of sex and resulting little advanced primates that require lots and lots of care before they can help out much in the business of that culture not dying ...

Quote:
You seem to think you know the answers: you suggest "man" and "woman" are just names of the sexes and their corresponding sex differences in body and behavior.
Which is where wecome to the budo aspect of this issue that was raised (and not by me). For human beings, sex, life, death and culture are intimately tied together. Culture is what makes us able to do things no other animal on the planet has every done or could do. We envision continuity -- continuity of cooperation across large numbers of individuals, and longitudinal continuity through survival of both progeny and culture. Aikido is an aspect of culture that transmits a means of survival -- and that means of survival is based on a manipulation of a dipole mechanical principle traditionally called in and yo.

In and yo as mechanical principles are expressed in traditional terms by various analogies -- male and female being chief among them. It is the teaching of the art that this male principle and the female principle are separate in their respective actions and never directly oppose one another -- illustrated by the Juuji + symbol, and this right angle relationship nevertheless enables an infinity of possible interactions (takemusu aiki) that result.

It is only by the understanding and application of their inherent separation that they can both manifest together without conflict, each magnifying the impact of the other, and becoming mutually productive. If not --then they are opposed and compete for predominant influence of one over the other. The dominant of the two destroys the action of the other and is itself diminished to the extent of the opposed action of the other. In order for the in-yo principle to function, the categories of their respective separate actions must be clearly applied. To be taught the nature of these categories must be firmly grasped -- whether the categories used in teaching are simply practical and demonstrative or intellectual in character, or any combination of the above.

The topic at hand muddies these categories deeply. Anyone who struggles with this kind of category in their own person is more likely than not to have difficulty grasping and applying the male and female principles as utterly separate but intimately complementary actions.

Quote:
Humans have a built in propensity to categorize people into behavioral categories. (Remember I am also claiming that we perceive personhood in conscious minds, not in bodies.)
Your first point is well-taken, but there is no such thing as any human person who is not in a body, so ... your premise begins well and then jumps on to some very shaky ground.

Quote:
THAT then would be the root of gender, and you notice biological sex is not even in the picture yet.
Sex precedes intellectual category -- in every way meaningful. Sex manifests before ANY behavior and before sexual behavior does, and drives sexual behavior. Notwithstanding, sexual maturity of our species is delayed long enough for the development of intellect to catch up. Thus we have the opportunity for a forming intellect to confuse things -- by allowing this type of intellectualized "just-so" story to confuse categories more basic than those of intellect. You are putting the cart before horse.

The fact that we can alter more basic categories by means of intellectual manipulations does not change their biological priority and the origin of the causes that we then manipulate to other purpose. We cannot safely or effectively alter them without acknowledging more fundamental priorities -- which can and do reassert themselves. The alterations remain secondary and derivative -- whether good bad or indifferent .

Quote:
So there you have it, a nice, simple model of where gender comes from, and it isn't from biological sex, at the basic level. It just commonly employs biological sex in the establishment of categories.
Quote:
George Box wrote:
" "The most that can be expected from any model is that it can supply a useful approximation to reality: All models are wrong; some models are useful."

"Since all models are wrong the scientist cannot obtain a 'correct' one by excessive elaboration. On the contrary following William of Occam he should seek an economical description of natural phenomena. Just as the ability to devise simple but evocative models is the signature of the great scientist so overelaboration and overparameterization is often the mark of mediocrity." -- George Box.
Quote:
JW wrote:
Look I'm no expert but I've just been thinking about this and I don't think what I am saying is very strange, logically. It just isn't what we're used to, coming from a culture that demands 2 genders that must map 1:1 onto the 2 sexes.
Sex is simpler than gender -- and explains gender as a derivative concept framed by the intellect. I'll take my lead from Dr. Box. Gender is a model. All models are wrong, some models are useful. In and Yo are useful.

Last edited by Erick Mead : 06-24-2015 at 11:30 AM.

Cordially,

Erick Mead
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Old 06-24-2015, 01:02 PM   #136
Fred Little
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Re: Trans Inclusive Aikido


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Old 06-24-2015, 01:41 PM   #137
JW
 
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Re: Trans Inclusive Aikido

Quote:
Erick Mead wrote: View Post
Your kind invitation is accepted but ... you are just wrong.
Oh. Is that by decree, or by parsimonious registration with evidence? Evidence can be anthropological, neurological, psychological, take your pick, but present something-- I have. All you've said is that sex is more simple than gender, and then assert that people have gender only as a cultural or mental model to represent sex. We don't know that gender is a model to simply represent sex. You think it must be, but all we objectively know is that gender is a phenomenon in human culture whereby people are categorized, such that acceptable appearance and non-sexual behaviors get doled out differentially.

Quote:
Erick Mead wrote: View Post
Yes. Yes we do. It arises because a certain ordered pair of primates behaving in a certain way ... because of sex and resulting little advanced primates that require lots and lots of care before they can help out much in the business of that culture not dying ...
I don't think your hypothesis is wrong, or even unreasonable. In fact it's what I assumed too, before I started thinking and researching about this. But it's still just a hypothesis.

The truth ("best model," whatever) about what the mental phenomenon of gender is, and how it arises in people, has to take into account this evidence. See text in the PBS map for some elaboration:
- cross-culturally, humans tend to recognize more than 2 genders
- gender distinctions are accompanied by behavioral rather than sexual expectations within cultural contexts
- gender distinctions tend to be made by observing a variety of traits, not just biological sex
- gender identity can be preserved post-injury
- no evidence of gender in other sexually dimorphic species (only sex differences)
- at an early age (2 or 3 years old, when children are mastering the categorical distinctions critical for language vocabulary and syntax, but before much high-level thinking like "political correctness" is developed), children report dischord between their gender identity and their expected sex-based gender

That's just a start, I'm sure any of those are debatable.

At any rate I could still be right about what gender as a phenomenon generally is, and it won't change the fact that for one white guy in a western nation, a different and more familiar-to-him notion of gender is the only valid one. No amount of weird brown savage cultures or poor confused children of politically-correct liberals will change that, I'm starting to think.

What's relevant to me is not one person or one culture's experience. But that's not a given, it's just me.
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Old 06-25-2015, 07:39 AM   #138
Jeremy Hulley
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Re: Trans Inclusive Aikido

One more time
http://community.pflag.org/transgender

Jeremy Hulley
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Old 07-08-2015, 06:11 PM   #139
Riai Maori
 
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Re: Trans Inclusive Aikido

Good bye spam and eggs

Motto tsuyoku
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Old 07-09-2015, 07:05 AM   #140
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Re: Trans Inclusive Aikido

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Good bye spam and eggs
Another nation heard from, weeks after the fact. What was the point of this?
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