Welcome to AikiWeb Aikido Information
AikiWeb: The Source for Aikido Information
AikiWeb's principal purpose is to serve the Internet community as a repository and dissemination point for aikido information.

Sections
home
aikido articles
columns

Discussions
forums
aikiblogs

Databases
dojo search
seminars
image gallery
supplies
links directory

Reviews
book reviews
video reviews
dvd reviews
equip. reviews

News
submit
archive

Miscellaneous
newsletter
rss feeds
polls
about

Follow us on



Home > AikiWeb Aikido Forums
Go Back   AikiWeb Aikido Forums > General

Hello and thank you for visiting AikiWeb, the world's most active online Aikido community! This site is home to over 22,000 aikido practitioners from around the world and covers a wide range of aikido topics including techniques, philosophy, history, humor, beginner issues, the marketplace, and more.

If you wish to join in the discussions or use the other advanced features available, you will need to register first. Registration is absolutely free and takes only a few minutes to complete so sign up today!

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old 02-06-2015, 10:15 AM   #51
Tim Ruijs
 
Tim Ruijs's Avatar
Dojo: Makato/Netherlands
Location: Netherlands - Leusden
Join Date: Aug 2005
Posts: 463
Netherlands
Offline
Re: YouTube: Christian Tissier, 2014

Quote:
Markus Rohde wrote: View Post
That's normal behaviour.

But if you think you could be the one who is always controlling the situation, in the role as uke as well as in the role of tori, I think you are wrong. Is' theory.
Agreed. In the end aite will loose his balance and take ukemi. That would indicate thattori did the technique correct. Aite should however never give his balance for sake of tori, like is suggested by Tissier.

In a real fight:
* If you make a bad decision, you die.
* If you don't decide anything, you die.
Aikido teaches you how to decide.
www.aikido-makato.nl
  Reply With Quote
Old 02-09-2015, 12:45 PM   #52
ChrisMoses
Dojo: TNBBC (Icho Ryu Aiki Budo), Shinto Ryu IaiBattojutsu
Location: Seattle, WA
Join Date: Jun 2006
Posts: 927
United_States
Offline
Re: YouTube: Christian Tissier, 2014

Quote:
Szczepan Janczuk wrote: View Post
We can clearly see he is not breaking uke balance before a throw. I was his uke few times for shihonage, so I could feel it very well. Instead, he introduced a ‘code' -- the way how uke must behave, so nage can practice his technique. That is his teaching. So in reality uke is jumping in the air by himself for fun and not because nage is creating correct conditions to do it.
Wow, I completely agree with you. I don't think that has ever happened before.

My beef with every video I have ever seen of him is exactly this, that there is no kuzushi. Uke is completely free to move right up until he cranks them over and they take a beautiful intentional hard fall. I fail to see the point, at that level it's just acrobatics.

Chris Moses
TNBBC, "Putting the ME in MEdiocre!"
Budo Tanren at Seattle School of Aikido
Shinto Ryu Iai-Battojutsu
  Reply With Quote
Old 02-09-2015, 01:14 PM   #53
ChrisMoses
Dojo: TNBBC (Icho Ryu Aiki Budo), Shinto Ryu IaiBattojutsu
Location: Seattle, WA
Join Date: Jun 2006
Posts: 927
United_States
Offline
Re: YouTube: Christian Tissier, 2014

Quote:
Markus Rohde wrote: View Post
That's normal behaviour.

But if you think you could be the one who is always controlling the situation, in the role as uke as well as in the role of tori, I think you are wrong. Is' theory.
No, is not theory, is aiki.

Chris Moses
TNBBC, "Putting the ME in MEdiocre!"
Budo Tanren at Seattle School of Aikido
Shinto Ryu Iai-Battojutsu
  Reply With Quote
Old 02-09-2015, 03:15 PM   #54
john.burn
 
john.burn's Avatar
Dojo: Chishin Dojo
Location: Coventry
Join Date: Jan 2003
Posts: 200
United Kingdom
Offline
Re: YouTube: Christian Tissier, 2014

This thread is pretty interesting, for a few reasons.

I've taken ukemi for Tissier and he's powerful, he almost broke my wrist on a kotegaeshi, it hurt for a long time... He gave me no quarter and I obviously wasn't one of his students - he muscled through and I was going where he wanted me to go and nothing was going to change that. He did apologise for the noise my wrist made .

And the other reason is Joe here. I've seen and had many a lesson from you on the mat. Subtle is not something I'd ever use to describe you . I'm surprised to hear you think this is dangerous particularly due to your lineage. Nice to hear though .

You were a legend on the BAB courses, so many issues and complaints. Lol.

Please don't be offended, I'm sure you won't be.

Best Regards,
John

www.chishindojo.co.uk
  Reply With Quote
Old 02-09-2015, 04:55 PM   #55
sakumeikan
Dojo: Sakumeikan N.E. Aikkai .Newcastle upon Tyne.
Location: Newcastle upon Tyne
Join Date: Jan 2008
Posts: 1,266
United Kingdom
Offline
Re: YouTube: Christian Tissier, 2014

Quote:
John Burn wrote: View Post
This thread is pretty interesting, for a few reasons.

I've taken ukemi for Tissier and he's powerful, he almost broke my wrist on a kotegaeshi, it hurt for a long time... He gave me no quarter and I obviously wasn't one of his students - he muscled through and I was going where he wanted me to go and nothing was going to change that. He did apologise for the noise my wrist made .

And the other reason is Joe here. I've seen and had many a lesson from you on the mat. Subtle is not something I'd ever use to describe you . I'm surprised to hear you think this is dangerous particularly due to your lineage. Nice to hear though .

You were a legend on the BAB courses, so many issues and complaints. Lol.

Please don't be offended, I'm sure you won't be.
Dear John,
As you say I was never in my early days considered to be subtle or had delicate applications of waza.I guess I was a bit competitive from years of judo. I did not mind being challenged on the tatami. However perhaps I had conversion on the road to Damascus.I realised that you did not have to be Mike Tyson to get the job done.Of course I am much older[76] so I do not operate in the manner of a30/40 year old aikidoka. The other reason is the aging process.Injuries which clear up fast when your young take ages to heal when you get a bit older.So again I consider tis when I train with other people.
I consider my earlier aikido to be an important part of my journey.Now I am on perhaps my final journey.
As far as the B.A b stuff is concerned its all water under the bridge. No big deal.
I rarely take offence, so no offence taken.All the best , Joe.
ps.I bet you muttered a few choice words under your breath when Tissier cranked your wrist.
  Reply With Quote
Old 02-09-2015, 05:24 PM   #56
Gerardo Torres
Location: SF Bay Area
Join Date: Jul 2006
Posts: 197
United_States
Offline
Re: YouTube: Christian Tissier, 2014

Quote:
Joe Curran wrote: View Post
Dear Carsten,
Saito Sensei is powerful , but safe .No extreme elbow lock as far as I am concerned.Cheers, Joe
Safer? I see Saito cranking it way harder and dangerously than Tissier. Saito's "furi kaburi" is like 30 cm from his head (he must be accounting for a big helmet), he starts cutting toward uke's rear then as the uke starts to fall he changes the direction of his cut - through uke's elbow - down to waist level all while keeping a moving base. Tissier's hands barely raise above the head, then cuts and leans in a way that looks more like supporting his uke's breakfall, cutting straight, and his student knows how to receive it by keeping head/hand/elbow/shoulder as close as possible.

As far a kuzushi-on-touch created pre-crank move: I don't see any in either teacher's case.
  Reply With Quote
Old 02-10-2015, 05:22 PM   #57
sakumeikan
Dojo: Sakumeikan N.E. Aikkai .Newcastle upon Tyne.
Location: Newcastle upon Tyne
Join Date: Jan 2008
Posts: 1,266
United Kingdom
Offline
Re: YouTube: Christian Tissier, 2014

Quote:
Markus Rohde wrote: View Post
That's one way to perform shihonage.
But this "guy" was a daito-ryu guy, so he must have known this:

http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=WrcJgYKDJUw
Hi Markus,
I watched Kondo Sensei do Shiho Nage. I looked closely at his Uke. Might be wrong here but I think uke was not too happy about the pressure applied by Kondo Sensei on his partners elbow joint. Check the expression on Ukes face. Hardly a facial expression of joy methinks. Then of course Kondo Sensei blitzes Uke downing him with a head over heels ukemi. Gee, must be really good to reach such a high level of expertise, Cheers, Joe.
  Reply With Quote
Old 02-12-2015, 12:53 AM   #58
oisin bourke
 
oisin bourke's Avatar
Dojo: Muden Juku, Ireland
Location: Kilkenny
Join Date: Dec 2005
Posts: 359
Ireland
Offline
Re: YouTube: Christian Tissier, 2014

Quote:
Gerardo Torres wrote: View Post
.

As far a kuzushi-on-touch created pre-crank move: I don't see any in either teacher's case.
Could you link some clips of aikido teachers doing this kuzushi?
  Reply With Quote
Old 02-12-2015, 05:45 AM   #59
Cliff Judge
Location: Kawasaki, Kanagawa
Join Date: Sep 2005
Posts: 1,276
Japan
Offline
Re: YouTube: Christian Tissier, 2014

Quote:
Joe Curran wrote: View Post
Hi Markus,
I watched Kondo Sensei do Shiho Nage. I looked closely at his Uke. Might be wrong here but I think uke was not too happy about the pressure applied by Kondo Sensei on his partners elbow joint. Check the expression on Ukes face. Hardly a facial expression of joy methinks. Then of course Kondo Sensei blitzes Uke downing him with a head over heels ukemi. Gee, must be really good to reach such a high level of expertise, Cheers, Joe.
It is actually both the shoulder and elbow that Kondo Sensei locks up and stresses. The throw is meant to hurt/damage/destroy those joints. In kata, nage loosens the grip on uke's wrist so they can fall safely.

But the main point of this kata is making Aiki happen on contact, the rest of it doesn't work if you don't have that....you wind up with an Aikido shihonage.
  Reply With Quote
Old 02-12-2015, 06:07 AM   #60
Cliff Judge
Location: Kawasaki, Kanagawa
Join Date: Sep 2005
Posts: 1,276
Japan
Offline
Re: YouTube: Christian Tissier, 2014

In reference to how Tissier seems to set up collusion on the part of uke, in this video he is talking about it and it may seem that this is entirely the result of verbal instruction, a by the numbers choreography.

In the ASU - at least at Shobukan - we try to make uke "feel" like giving us their balance and taking a fall for us. There are many more wrong/unconvincing ways to do this than right. And an uncooperative uke can shut down anything of this nature (but sometimes you really are surprised). This is for both sides' training. If uke tries to shut down every technique they are just learning to be stiff. And learning to not be stiff but to not move unless you get the right feel is actually very difficult.

I think this is basically how Tissier tries to make training happen on his mat, and I think it is one of the paradigms Aikido is really good for.
  Reply With Quote
Old 02-12-2015, 12:19 PM   #61
ChrisMoses
Dojo: TNBBC (Icho Ryu Aiki Budo), Shinto Ryu IaiBattojutsu
Location: Seattle, WA
Join Date: Jun 2006
Posts: 927
United_States
Offline
Re: YouTube: Christian Tissier, 2014

Quote:
Oisin Bourke wrote: View Post
Could you link some clips of aikido teachers doing this kuzushi?
Just about anything by Hiroshi Ikeda Sensei.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H9DXIIyAeZE
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mjqYQWdcHdc
Some Takumakai DR
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bw92y9yb-Y0

Hell, even this old video of me and Jeremy shows kuzushi -> tsukuri -> kake pretty clearly. I will say though that we've reworked a lot of what we're doing after being influenced by Akuzawa Sensei and especially Dan. One of the exercises at the end we've found doesn't really work on anyone in the dojo anymore.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G0xD1WJRavA

Chris Moses
TNBBC, "Putting the ME in MEdiocre!"
Budo Tanren at Seattle School of Aikido
Shinto Ryu Iai-Battojutsu
  Reply With Quote
Old 02-12-2015, 12:56 PM   #62
phitruong
Dojo: Charlotte Aikikai Agatsu Dojo
Join Date: Aug 2007
Posts: 1,942
United_States
Offline
Re: YouTube: Christian Tissier, 2014

Quote:
Christian Moses wrote: View Post
Just about anything by Hiroshi Ikeda Sensei.
i was going to mention this video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PB6FJ-Via9U
half way through the video he discussed about shihonage

"budo is putting on cold, wet, sweat stained gi with a smile and a snarl" - your truly
http://charlotteaikikai.org
  Reply With Quote
Old 02-12-2015, 01:51 PM   #63
oisin bourke
 
oisin bourke's Avatar
Dojo: Muden Juku, Ireland
Location: Kilkenny
Join Date: Dec 2005
Posts: 359
Ireland
Offline
Re: YouTube: Christian Tissier, 2014

Quote:
Christian Moses wrote: View Post
Just about anything by Hiroshi Ikeda Sensei.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H9DXIIyAeZE
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mjqYQWdcHdc
Some Takumakai DR
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bw92y9yb-Y0

Hell, even this old video of me and Jeremy shows kuzushi -> tsukuri -> kake pretty clearly. I will say though that we've reworked a lot of what we're doing after being influenced by Akuzawa Sensei and especially Dan. One of the exercises at the end we've found doesn't really work on anyone in the dojo anymore.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G0xD1WJRavA
Thanks for that Chris.
  Reply With Quote
Old 02-12-2015, 03:55 PM   #64
Gerardo Torres
Location: SF Bay Area
Join Date: Jul 2006
Posts: 197
United_States
Offline
Re: YouTube: Christian Tissier, 2014

Quote:
Oisin Bourke wrote: View Post
Could you link some clips of aikido teachers doing this kuzushi?
H. Ikeda, as others have pointed out, is a good example. N. Tamura also comes to mind; from what I've seen he also seemed to try to work balance breaking outside waza. I tried but could not find a video of Shioda that was not his uke smashing routine.

It's hard to find good aikido videos. There's often a cult-like behavior surrounding famous shihan so their uke tend to be over conditioned and it's difficult to discern what's real and not. I wish they all just did simple push/grab tests in a neutral setting, without trained uke, so it would be easier to see who can do what.

Anyway, I recently saw this video featuring S. Yamaguchi, which is worth a look for how he unbalances his uke upon first touch (and waza seems like a by-product of that), and the things he talks about are quite relevant to that:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s0CkjGyykm4
  Reply With Quote
Old 02-12-2015, 05:17 PM   #65
kewms
Join Date: Aug 2002
Posts: 1,318
Offline
Re: YouTube: Christian Tissier, 2014

IIRC, Tissier Sensei studied with Yamaguchi Sensei, as did quite a few other notable teachers.

Katherine
  Reply With Quote
Old 02-13-2015, 03:43 AM   #66
Alex Megann
Dojo: Southampton Aikikai
Location: Southampton
Join Date: Sep 2004
Posts: 379
United Kingdom
Offline
Re: YouTube: Christian Tissier, 2014

Quote:
Gerardo Torres wrote: View Post
I tried but could not find a video of Shioda that was not his uke smashing routine.
As a public service, here is an excellent non-uke-smashing video clip of Shioda Sensei (actually they aren't too hard to find, Geraldo!)

Alex
  Reply With Quote
Old 02-13-2015, 09:50 AM   #67
allowedcloud
Location: Ohio
Join Date: Jan 2008
Posts: 82
United_States
Offline
Re: YouTube: Christian Tissier, 2014

Quote:
Katherine Derbyshire wrote: View Post
IIRC, Tissier Sensei studied with Yamaguchi Sensei, as did quite a few other notable teachers.

Katherine
However most of those teachers took Yamaguchi's classes at Hombu dojo and/or attended seminars he held. They did not train at his private dojo. This is an important distinction when people claim lineage from him.
  Reply With Quote
Old 02-13-2015, 10:00 AM   #68
Carsten Möllering
 
Carsten Möllering's Avatar
Dojo: Hildesheimer Aikido Verein
Location: Hildesheim
Join Date: Sep 2008
Posts: 932
Germany
Offline
Re: YouTube: Christian Tissier, 2014

Quote:
Joshua Landin wrote: View Post
This is an important distinction when people claim lineage from him.
Yes, indeed. It is.
  Reply With Quote
Old 02-13-2015, 12:25 PM   #69
oisin bourke
 
oisin bourke's Avatar
Dojo: Muden Juku, Ireland
Location: Kilkenny
Join Date: Dec 2005
Posts: 359
Ireland
Offline
Re: YouTube: Christian Tissier, 2014

Quote:
Gerardo Torres wrote: View Post
H. Ikeda, as others have pointed out, is a good example. N. Tamura also comes to mind; from what I've seen he also seemed to try to work balance breaking outside waza. I tried but could not find a video of Shioda that was not his uke smashing routine.

It's hard to find good aikido videos. There's often a cult-like behavior surrounding famous shihan so their uke tend to be over conditioned and it's difficult to discern what's real and not. I wish they all just did simple push/grab tests in a neutral setting, without trained uke, so it would be easier to see who can do what.

Anyway, I recently saw this video featuring S. Yamaguchi, which is worth a look for how he unbalances his uke upon first touch (and waza seems like a by-product of that), and the things he talks about are quite relevant to that:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s0CkjGyykm4
Thanks for that. The subtitles are enlightening. And it's a good point. It can be very hard to tell when kuzushi has been applied and by whom.
  Reply With Quote

Please visit our sponsor:

AikiWeb Sponsored Links - Place your Aikido link here for only $10!



Reply


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
YouTube: Christian Tissier at 2013 World Combat Games akiy General 53 05-14-2014 10:33 AM
YouTube: Christian Tissier - Belgium 2013 akiy General 13 03-03-2014 07:10 AM
Christian Tissier in UK, 22nd March 2014 shuckser Seminars 0 02-19-2014 10:39 AM
Moriteru Ueshiba v Christian Tissier aiki-jujutsuka Techniques 27 03-12-2013 10:39 AM
Video: Christian Tissier sensei, Bercy 2008 akiy General 7 05-10-2008 01:22 PM


All times are GMT -6. The time now is 01:55 PM.



vBulletin Copyright © 2000-2018 Jelsoft Enterprises Limited
----------
Copyright 1997-2018 AikiWeb and its Authors, All Rights Reserved.
----------
For questions and comments about this website:
Send E-mail
plainlaid-picaresque outchasing-protistan explicantia-altarage seaford-stellionate