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Old 01-31-2015, 07:47 AM   #76
earnest aikidoka
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Re: Aikido: Striking all along?

Quote:
John Powell wrote: View Post
The O/P said, "Based on this definition, It is my opinion that aikido is primarily a striking art."

To which I'd respond, maybe your aikido is, mine isn't. I understand your logical basis and I think it is sound in the direction it is going. However, unless you define when I put my hand on someone to find them/feel them and their direction of movmeent and intent (fast or slow, I don't care) as a "strike" then I think what I do is more akin to grappling than striking.

Note, I can strike plenty good if/when the opportunity would present itself, but I don't think of that as very aiki, as that sort of impact doesn't seem "blendy" to me at all, except in the motorized sense.
How would it change your views if I clarified the meaning of 'striking' as being more offensive, regardless of whatever medium (fist, foot, grasp) through which aiki is expressed, rather than being a defensive art as most aikidoka would state of aikido? And as a result of this offensive nature, most of the techniques like ikkyo for example, are meant than as an offensive strike and their movements are exaggerated for training's sake?
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Old 01-31-2015, 12:50 PM   #77
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Re: Aikido: Striking all along?

Quote:
Hansel Wong wrote: View Post
How would it change your views if I clarified the meaning of 'striking' as being more offensive, regardless of whatever medium (fist, foot, grasp) through which aiki is expressed, rather than being a defensive art as most aikidoka would state of aikido? And as a result of this offensive nature, most of the techniques like ikkyo for example, are meant than as an offensive strike and their movements are exaggerated for training's sake?
I would tell you be to careful of generalizations. I don't know if "most" aikidoka see aikido as a defensive art, but I don't, neither of my primary teachers does, and very few (if any) of the senior teachers in my lineage would describe it that way.

Yes, I agree that "real" techniques are likely to be somewhat abbreviated relative to the kihon waza as they are usually taught.

But I still hold that aikido movements derive from sword, and that cutting with a sword is quite different from striking with a fist.

Katherine
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Old 02-01-2015, 05:50 AM   #78
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Re: Aikido: Striking all along?

There are some basic principles in aikido that can be used for striking as well.
Kuroiwa Sensei for example grounded his aikido on striking movemements he had internalized as a boxer. Nishio used karate techniques. It both worked.
The basic principles seem to be universal and translateable.
In times when swords were used, they were adapted to swordswork principles.
In aikido they were adapted to taijutsu principles, and body, stick and sword were united under the same basic priniples. That was called riai.
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Old 02-01-2015, 08:19 AM   #79
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Re: Aikido: Striking all along?

According to the history of daito-ryu which is passed down since ancient times, the origin of daito-ryu was a grappling art called tegoi, which is also the origin of sumo.
The myths of the origin tell about a duel between two gods in which the distinguished element was the grabbing of the opponents arm.
Takemikazuchi no kami won the contest by transforming his arm into a sword when he was grabbed (tegatana), and when he himself grabbed the opponents arm, he crushed it, he didn't cut with a sword.
Dosn't sound like the evolutionary history of a sword fighting art.
That reminds me of storys about how O Sensei used to show his power and how he was "duelling" with people, for example with the famous sumotori Tenryu.
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Old 02-01-2015, 11:04 AM   #80
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Re: Aikido: Striking all along?

Quote:
Markus Rohde wrote: View Post
According to the history of daito-ryu which is passed down since ancient times, the origin of daito-ryu was a grappling art called tegoi, which is also the origin of sumo.
The myths of the origin tell about a duel between two gods in which the distinguished element was the grabbing of the opponents arm.
Takemikazuchi no kami won the contest by transforming his arm into a sword when he was grabbed (tegatana), and when he himself grabbed the opponents arm, he crushed it, he didn't cut with a sword.
Dosn't sound like the evolutionary history of a sword fighting art.
That reminds me of storys about how O Sensei used to show his power and how he was "duelling" with people, for example with the famous sumotori Tenryu.
whats the story?
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Old 02-01-2015, 11:45 AM   #81
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sen zen no sen initiative martial arts principlesRe: Aikido: Striking all along?

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Hansel Wong wrote: View Post
How would it change your views if I clarified the meaning of 'striking' as being more offensive, regardless of whatever medium (fist, foot, grasp) through which aiki is expressed, rather than being a defensive art as most aikidoka would state of aikido? And as a result of this offensive nature, most of the techniques like ikkyo for example, are meant than as an offensive strike and their movements are exaggerated for training's sake?
I would say that I tend to agree with Katherine.

I would also say that by changing the definition of the word, you change everything about your original question. That's what I do (lawyer) so I'm familiar with that argument tactic. Nothing wrong with it, the tactic I mean.

to get back on point, I just did a quick google of the two words seeking basic definitions of both being used in verb form. I got the below as a sampling, though there are various others available of course.

Striking: hit forcibly and deliberately with one's hand or a weapon or other implement. To cause a forceful impact with limb, tool or weapon.

Grappling: seize hold of (someone). engage in a close fight or struggle without weapons; wrestle. to seize, hold, or fasten with or as with a grapple. to seize in a grip, take hold of:

I find it interesting that the kanji character for kuzushi illustrates a mountain falling on a house.
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Old 02-01-2015, 11:59 AM   #82
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Re: Aikido: Striking all along?

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Hansel Wong wrote: View Post
whats the story?
No striking-art-story.
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Old 02-01-2015, 06:03 PM   #83
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Re: sen zen no sen initiative martial arts principlesRe: Aikido: Striking all along?

Quote:
John Powell wrote: View Post
I would say that I tend to agree with Katherine.

I would also say that by changing the definition of the word, you change everything about your original question. That's what I do (lawyer) so I'm familiar with that argument tactic. Nothing wrong with it, the tactic I mean.

to get back on point, I just did a quick google of the two words seeking basic definitions of both being used in verb form. I got the below as a sampling, though there are various others available of course.

Striking: hit forcibly and deliberately with one's hand or a weapon or other implement. To cause a forceful impact with limb, tool or weapon.

Grappling: seize hold of (someone). engage in a close fight or struggle without weapons; wrestle. to seize, hold, or fasten with or as with a grapple. to seize in a grip, take hold of:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=APgF-DZ8nBM

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fmZ-h_9EQ5Y

Which, I'm sure you'll agree, the latter is being demonstrated here. At best this is a limited demonstration of Aikido and at worst it is wrong. I'm in between actually in regards to this.

But this is what I meant when aikido is seen as a grappling art or defensive art and I feel that it should look a little more like this:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_geK-z-zgP4

The key minutes are the beginning and 5:20.
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Old 02-02-2015, 08:29 AM   #84
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Re: sen zen no sen initiative martial arts principlesRe: Aikido: Striking all along?

Quote:
Hansel Wong wrote: View Post
But this is what I meant when aikido is seen as a grappling art or defensive art and I feel that it should look a little more like this:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_geK-z-zgP4

The key minutes are the beginning and 5:20.
In the beginning I see a kokyu-nage throw like many aikidoka do in randori.
At 5:20 I see a tai-chi form.
Why should Aikido look like a tai-chi form?
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Old 02-02-2015, 09:01 AM   #85
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Re: sen zen no sen initiative martial arts principlesRe: Aikido: Striking all along?

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Markus Rohde wrote: View Post
In the beginning I see a kokyu-nage throw like many aikidoka do in randori.
At 5:20 I see a tai-chi form.
Why should Aikido look like a tai-chi form?
Watch the two other videos first. it is aikido sparring and some of the better ones I have seen so far.

I am just using the video to illustrate how aikido would have looked like. The beginning is sparring and 5:20 is a tai chi form that comes from shrinking the basic, circular sweeping movements of taichi into linear techniques. So I am using that as an example of how aikido's sweeping movements as demonstrated by morihei ueshiba and the short linear movements of Gozo shioda's movements could be connected.

I am not, NOT saying that aikido is tai chi or like tai chi in anyway or anything of that sort, I am just using it for purposes of visualisation.
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Old 02-02-2015, 11:32 AM   #86
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Re: Aikido: Striking all along?

Striking is a different concept than order of interaction. I can strike while acting defensively or offensively. I can make offensive and defensive movements outside of the order of interaction.

While a point of contention, I would argue that aikido is both offensive and defensive, a unison of movement which offers no openings. I think the "defensive" thing is largely an issue of the structure of our kata, which generally allows for the attacker to initiate the interaction.

Below are two links to Shioda videos, both of which illustrate some contact one could argue was a "strike":
http://youtu.be/XxPlQGxvoy0
http://youtu.be/kj0TgZTs2cg
In the second video, I believe he actually flash knockouts one of his uke, who is escorted off the mat.

There are a number of videos, many available on YouTube, that demonstrate how O Sensei and some of the senior people used atemi. Most of them do not demonstrate a strike in a traditional punch fashion, but rather a whole body movement (which is somewhat explained by Chen Xiaowang in your video).

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Old 02-02-2015, 04:47 PM   #87
Travers Hughes
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Re: Aikido: Striking all along?

What a rabbit-hole of a conversation! I don't post here much any more, but wanted to ask OP a couple of questions if I may:
Have you trained in sword arts? If so, what and for how long?
Have you trained in striking arts? If so, what and for how long?
Have you trained grappling arts? If so, what and for how long?
Striking arts can be trained solo. Can your ideal striking aikido be trained solo? If so, how is it different to common aikido training today?

Sorry to bombard with questions, but I find that I simulatenously agree and disagree with a lot of positions here from all posters - all of which are valid, depending on how you want to train. I tend to find there are no absolutes, just trying to understand you better so I can provide meaningful contribution to your OP (and let the thread run its course).
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Old 02-02-2015, 05:56 PM   #88
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Re: Aikido: Striking all along?

Quote:
Jon Reading wrote: View Post
...I can make offensive and defensive movements outside of the order of interaction. ... I would argue that aikido is both offensive and defensive, a unison of movement which offers no openings.
For reasons practical and neurological -- I explain it this way: movement in aikido begins with imitation -- both in training and in <<ahem>> **unscheduled** engagements.

If you move against the attacking opponent you see in the mirror (and how can you not):

Who is attacking whom?
Who is defending against whom ?
How can the mirror image attack itself?

In a sense, the distinction of offense and defense becomes meaningless in these terms-- forensic categories that have no really immediate application to the interaction -- and moral categories that depend on things far more involved than mere question of who moved first or last and how.

There is a neurologically deep and highly strategic premise involved that keys on mirror neurons that go around inhibiting motor pathways at a root level, and powerfully prompts any patterned action that begins in such "naive" imitation (nothing says it ends that way).

This is (IMO) the basis for Ueshiba so pointedly doing away with the whole martial hierarchy of sente -- sente is an answer to the wrong question from this perspective.

Cordially,

Erick Mead
一隻狗可久里馬房但他也不是馬的.
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Old 02-02-2015, 06:21 PM   #89
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Re: Aikido: Striking all along?

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Travers Hughes wrote: View Post
What a rabbit-hole of a conversation! I don't post here much any more, but wanted to ask OP a couple of questions if I may:
Have you trained in sword arts? If so, what and for how long?
Have you trained in striking arts? If so, what and for how long?
Have you trained grappling arts? If so, what and for how long?
Striking arts can be trained solo. Can your ideal striking aikido be trained solo? If so, how is it different to common aikido training today?

Sorry to bombard with questions, but I find that I simulatenously agree and disagree with a lot of positions here from all posters - all of which are valid, depending on how you want to train. I tend to find there are no absolutes, just trying to understand you better so I can provide meaningful contribution to your OP (and let the thread run its course).
My only legitimate martial art is aikido, 12 years and counting and everything I know is based around aikido. Videos of fights, experience in fights and getting beaten up trying to use aikido complements what is legitimate.

I have no other training in sword and grappling other than what is taught in any aikido curriculum, but I have taught myself the basics of boxing over the same period of time I have been learning aikido and am sparring regularly, trying to apply my knowledge of aikido into sparring in general.

beyond training, I research and watch videos of other aikido masters and their methods of application. If you want, I can give you a list of the senseis I admire and try to adapt from in terms of aikido.

My ideal striking aikido is this, that it can be applied both in real life and in the ring, it is an answer rather than a boast. To be able to receive a question such as 'how does aikido work in such and such a situation' and answer in a solid, logical way rather than spouting things like 'aikido avoids combat' or 'Aikido's solution is Aiki'. This, I feel, is lazy, narrow-minded and shows that the person who gives that answer is afraid of really understanding what Aikido can be. That or he is an old master who has transcended fighting and other such petty concerns.

Practically, yes, my striking aikido can be trained solo, through weapons and katas (which I am not very sure about including yet) however, it cannot be entirely solo and will still need the basic elements of harmony, etiquette and working together in order to improve and develop. It is about going past rote training and what is seen from demos into practical applications, and it is about showing aikido's capability to be applied in any situation, to any weapon, to any limitation.

How will my aikido be different? first, it will look long and hard at itself. If it does not work in a given situation, the fault is mine and I will investigate thoroughly as to why a technique or principle failed. secondly, atemi is not something that one does if one has the opportunity, striking will always come first, hitting an opponent or seizing the initiative will always be paramount, the throw will come in and of itself. Lastly, whatever principles applied in life, will apply in the ring with the requisite modification, rules and etc... It would not be an art that falls to a simple boxer because 'It is not meant for the ring.' I do not subscribe to that idea, not anymore.

Please don't be afraid to ask such questions, as long as it is relevant and asked in the spirit of knowledge and discussion, I will answer to the best of my ability.
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Old 02-04-2015, 09:05 AM   #90
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Re: Aikido: Striking all along?

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Jonathan Hay wrote: View Post
I'm not convinced Aikido was intended to be primarily a striking art. This isn't to imply, though, that striking plays no role at all in Aikido. I believe striking is vital to the effective application of Aikido technique. Especially against any skilled martial artist, it is a fantasy to believe one could apply Aikido technique without the distracting, confusing and corrupting effect of a well-placed blow (or cut, if one is fussy about the relationship between Aikido and sword-work). But the Aikido I was taught revolved around blending, entering, spiraling and locks, pins and throws, not striking. We learned the three basic cutting strikes derived from sword-work, but no hooks, jabs, crosses, straights, or combinations thereof. And as I have been exposed over the years to a broader spectrum of Aikido, I have observed that my early training in Aikido is quite common. Very few dojo place any more than the most cursory emphasis on striking. You can see the atrocious results in thousands of Aikido videos where the attack that is given to nage by uke is clumsy, weak, ill-focused and insincere. Regardless, I still do not think Aikido is fundamentally a striking art.
do you post videos on youtube? Specifically aikido defences adapted to various strikes and situations? Aikido adapted I think those videos are called?
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Old 02-04-2015, 12:50 PM   #91
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Re: sen zen no sen initiative martial arts principlesRe: Aikido: Striking all along?

Quote:
Hansel Wong wrote: View Post
... I feel that [Aikido] should look a little more like this:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_geK-z-zgP4

The key minutes are the beginning and 5:20.
Are you aware that taiji is a "grappling" art at it's core? (Here's Chen Xiaowang performing some freestyle push hands.)

Quote:
Hansel Wong wrote: View Post
The quote you placed about atemi from Guillemard is interesting and on the surface coincides with my views, could you perhaps elaborate on the quote? I am not entirely sure of its meaning.
I posted that quote to suggest that some of the distinctions between "striking" and "grappling" break down when one develops an Aiki body. That quote suggests that Aikido techniques don't need to be "adapted" for striking---rather, they are already "atemi".

--Timothy Kleinert

Aikido & Wujifa qigongs
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Old 02-04-2015, 01:29 PM   #92
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Re: Aikido: Striking all along?

Quote:
do you post videos on youtube? Specifically aikido defences adapted to various strikes and situations? Aikido adapted I think those videos are called?
Yes, that's right. I do have a collection of "Aikido Adapted" YouTube videos. You've seen some of them, I take it?

"Iron sharpens iron; so a man sharpens the countenance of his friend."
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Old 02-04-2015, 04:49 PM   #93
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Re: Aikido: Striking all along?

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Jonathan Hay wrote: View Post
Yes, that's right. I do have a collection of "Aikido Adapted" YouTube videos. You've seen some of them, I take it?
You are one of the teachers that I draw inspiration from. Seen them? I learn from them.
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Old 02-04-2015, 04:53 PM   #94
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Re: sen zen no sen initiative martial arts principlesRe: Aikido: Striking all along?

Quote:
Timothy Walters Kleinert wrote: View Post
Are you aware that taiji is a "grappling" art at it's core? (Here's Chen Xiaowang performing some freestyle push hands.)

I posted that quote to suggest that some of the distinctions between "striking" and "grappling" break down when one develops an Aiki body. That quote suggests that Aikido techniques don't need to be "adapted" for striking---rather, they are already "atemi".
Indeed, but have you seen Master Chen's cannon fist form? Tai chi may be 'grappling' in the sense that it involves the unbalancing of an opponent to execute the throw rather than grabbing or pulling. Which I believe is how aikido should be.

In regards to your quote, there are many aikidoka who do not practice or embody what you just said, as evidenced by the earlier posted sparring videos. I hope to bring the point about your quote out and make it a bit more accepted. To the point where others may look into doing the adapting.
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Old 02-04-2015, 05:15 PM   #95
Jonathan
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Re: Aikido: Striking all along?

Glad to be of service on your Aikido journey!

"Iron sharpens iron; so a man sharpens the countenance of his friend."
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Old 02-04-2015, 07:23 PM   #96
Travers Hughes
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Re: Aikido: Striking all along?

Quote:
Hansel Wong wrote: View Post
My only legitimate martial art is aikido, 12 years and counting and everything I know is based around aikido. Videos of fights, experience in fights and getting beaten up trying to use aikido complements what is legitimate.

I have no other training in sword and grappling other than what is taught in any aikido curriculum, but I have taught myself the basics of boxing over the same period of time I have been learning aikido and am sparring regularly, trying to apply my knowledge of aikido into sparring in general.

beyond training, I research and watch videos of other aikido masters and their methods of application. If you want, I can give you a list of the senseis I admire and try to adapt from in terms of aikido.

My ideal striking aikido is this, that it can be applied both in real life and in the ring, it is an answer rather than a boast. To be able to receive a question such as 'how does aikido work in such and such a situation' and answer in a solid, logical way rather than spouting things like 'aikido avoids combat' or 'Aikido's solution is Aiki'. This, I feel, is lazy, narrow-minded and shows that the person who gives that answer is afraid of really understanding what Aikido can be. That or he is an old master who has transcended fighting and other such petty concerns.

Practically, yes, my striking aikido can be trained solo, through weapons and katas (which I am not very sure about including yet) however, it cannot be entirely solo and will still need the basic elements of harmony, etiquette and working together in order to improve and develop. It is about going past rote training and what is seen from demos into practical applications, and it is about showing aikido's capability to be applied in any situation, to any weapon, to any limitation.

How will my aikido be different? first, it will look long and hard at itself. If it does not work in a given situation, the fault is mine and I will investigate thoroughly as to why a technique or principle failed. secondly, atemi is not something that one does if one has the opportunity, striking will always come first, hitting an opponent or seizing the initiative will always be paramount, the throw will come in and of itself. Lastly, whatever principles applied in life, will apply in the ring with the requisite modification, rules and etc... It would not be an art that falls to a simple boxer because 'It is not meant for the ring.' I do not subscribe to that idea, not anymore.

Please don't be afraid to ask such questions, as long as it is relevant and asked in the spirit of knowledge and discussion, I will answer to the best of my ability.
Thanks for your reply!
Great that you're trying and testing new things. Can I suggest (without trying to sound condescending becase that's not my intention) that in order to better understand sword and grappling you could learn from qualified instructors and then bring that back to aikido (rather than studying them yourself with your aikido lenses on?) Same thing for your boxing. Otherwise you could be holding on to preconceived ideas that are holding you back from new discoveries. You may even change your perspective on what your aikido is to you.
Best of luck to you
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