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Old 01-25-2015, 08:20 PM   #1
akiy
 
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YouTube: Christian Tissier, 2014



Here is an Aikido video of Christian Tissier (7th dan) teaching at Cercle Tissier in Vincennes, Paris in December, 2015. The video includes English subtitles when he is speaking in French.

What are your thoughts on this video?

-- Jun

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Old 01-26-2015, 02:41 AM   #2
Dan Richards
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Re: YouTube: Christian Tissier, 2014

Good to see fresh evolution in Tissier.

I particularly like his statement at 9:18: "Forget that you are aikidoka."
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Old 01-27-2015, 05:16 PM   #3
sakumeikan
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Re: YouTube: Christian Tissier, 2014

Quote:
Jun Akiyama wrote: View Post


Here is an Aikido video of Christian Tissier (7th dan) teaching at Cercle Tissier in Vincennes, Paris in December, 2015. The video includes English subtitles when he is speaking in French.

What are your thoughts on this video?

-- Jun
DearAll,
i consider the shiho nage shown here is potentially dange ous inasmuch Uke is receiving the waza in a manner that could easily damage his elbow/shoulder joint.Note Ukes elbow joint position. mid throw.I feel that there appears to be little regard shown by Tissier Sensei to this question of safety .Uke due to pressure on the elbow joint has to do in this situation an over the top ukemi. Looks good but is it necessary or required to hoist uke ?I think not.
Cheers,Joe.
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Old 01-30-2015, 10:50 AM   #4
Mary Eastland
 
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Re: YouTube: Christian Tissier, 2014

I agree, Joe. I also don't think that throwing hard demonstrates effective technique. I have always though he looks pretty muscly.

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Old 01-30-2015, 05:32 PM   #5
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Re: YouTube: Christian Tissier, 2014

Quote:
Mary Eastland wrote: View Post
I agree, Joe. I also don't think that throwing hard demonstrates effective technique. I have always though he looks pretty muscly.
Dear Mary,
By all means throw a person, but I do not think using anybody as a crash test dummy or a bit of human cannon fodder is the way to go.If one wishes to be capable of doing aikido for decades you have to take care of your body.i had been hoisted around in my day, but my joints are now a bit suspect.your body has to last you a lifetime, why let anybody subject your body to undue stress?
Could it be showmanship, a bit of look how good I am???Hope all is well, with you,Joe
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Old 01-31-2015, 04:02 AM   #6
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Re: YouTube: Christian Tissier, 2014

Quote:
Joe Curran wrote: View Post
DearAll,
i consider the shiho nage shown here is potentially dange ous inasmuch Uke is receiving the waza in a manner that could easily damage his elbow/shoulder joint.Note Ukes elbow joint position. mid throw.I feel that there appears to be little regard shown by Tissier Sensei to this question of safety .Uke due to pressure on the elbow joint has to do in this situation an over the top ukemi. Looks good but is it necessary or required to hoist uke ?I think not.
Cheers,Joe.
I think its totally harmless if uke is relaxed, and there is not much pressure in the elbow.
There were others who threw even worse. Uke had to jump high to prevent fractures.
Tissiers way of throwing has more a leading charakter, it's actually soft.
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Old 01-31-2015, 07:12 AM   #7
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Re: YouTube: Christian Tissier, 2014

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Markus Rohde wrote: View Post
I think its totally harmless if uke is relaxed, and there is not much pressure in the elbow.
There were others who threw even worse. Uke had to jump high to prevent fractures.
Tissiers way of throwing has more a leading charakter, it's actually soft.
Dear Markus,
You may we ll be right Tissier Senseis waza might be soft.Then again how do you define soft?Not only that some person watching Tissier Sensei might not be so soft in an application.I still say the vid shows potential for elbow damage.Ony art 2.51 approx does he do a Shiho Nage which I think is safe .Most of the others are elbow breakers.Why do you think Uke jumps? Cheers, Joe.
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Old 01-31-2015, 07:52 AM   #8
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Re: YouTube: Christian Tissier, 2014

On these "unsafe" Shihonages, the uke's other hand is free to strike. In the video the uke's are careful to keep that hand "dead", not to show the reversal.

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Old 01-31-2015, 08:28 AM   #9
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Re: YouTube: Christian Tissier, 2014

Quote:
Joe Curran wrote: View Post
Most of the others are elbow breakers
Shiho nage was created for breaking elbows.
If you cannot see this any more, it's no shiho nage.
But I never heard about that Tissier broke any elbow. There were others who damged people.

Quote:
Joe Curran wrote: View Post
Why do you think Uke jumps?
Tissier talks about that.
But it's ok for a skilled uke to be thrown like that, because he is able to protect himself. If he couldn't do, Tissier wouldn't throw him like that.
It's about being not afraid and keeping the body relaxed. For me it's an important part of the development in Aikido.
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Old 01-31-2015, 10:17 AM   #10
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Re: YouTube: Christian Tissier, 2014

Quote:
Markus Rohde wrote: View Post
Shiho nage was created for breaking elbows.
If you cannot see this any more, it's no shiho nage.
You will need to re-send your memo to this guy.

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Old 01-31-2015, 10:53 AM   #11
Alex Megann
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Re: YouTube: Christian Tissier, 2014

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David Soroko wrote: View Post
You will need to re-send your memo to this guy.
… and this finish might look familiar too…



Actually Tissier's shihonage is quite different from the way I have seen his teacher, Seigo Yamaguchi, do it.

Alex

Last edited by Alex Megann : 01-31-2015 at 10:55 AM.
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Old 01-31-2015, 11:05 AM   #12
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Re: YouTube: Christian Tissier, 2014

Quote:
Alex Megann wrote: View Post
… and this finish might look familiar too…



Actually Tissier's shihonage is quite different from the way I have seen his teacher, Seigo Yamaguchi, do it.

Alex
Very nice photo.

Where did Yamaguchi get his Aikido from?

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Old 01-31-2015, 11:36 AM   #13
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Re: YouTube: Christian Tissier, 2014

Quote:
David Soroko wrote: View Post
You will need to re-send your memo to this guy.
That's one way to perform shihonage.
But this "guy" was a daito-ryu guy, so he must have known this:

http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=WrcJgYKDJUw
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Old 01-31-2015, 11:41 AM   #14
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Re: YouTube: Christian Tissier, 2014

Quote:
Markus Rohde wrote: View Post
That's one way to perform shihonage.
But this "guy" was a daito-ryu guy, so he must have known this:

http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=WrcJgYKDJUw
Very likely- how is this relevant to your statement about shihonage ?

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Old 01-31-2015, 12:09 PM   #15
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Re: YouTube: Christian Tissier, 2014

Quote:
David Soroko wrote: View Post
Very likely- how is this relevant to your statement about shihonage ?
Listen to what Kondo Sensei explains from 2:00.

The technique was designed to break the joints immediately. Normally ther was no chance given for ukemi.

Before it came to the position you see on the Ueshiba-photo, in daito-ryu the breaking movement was implied.

Last edited by MRoh : 01-31-2015 at 12:15 PM.
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Old 01-31-2015, 12:27 PM   #16
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Re: YouTube: Christian Tissier, 2014

Quote:
Markus Rohde wrote: View Post
That's one way to perform shihonage.
But this "guy" was a daito-ryu guy, so he must have known this:

http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=WrcJgYKDJUw
That is jujutsu level shiho nage. In Daito ryu Advanced level is absolutely not about breaking or stressing joints.
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Old 01-31-2015, 12:30 PM   #17
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Re: YouTube: Christian Tissier, 2014

But you do see that in the photo, the founder of the martial art of Aikido is doing shihonage differently from what Kondo demonstrates.

For whatever it's worth, this is also the way basic shihonage was taught by Saito sensei.

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Old 01-31-2015, 12:50 PM   #18
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Re: YouTube: Christian Tissier, 2014

Quote:
David Soroko wrote: View Post
But you do see that in the photo, the founder of the martial art of Aikido is doing shihonage differently from what Kondo demonstrates.

For whatever it's worth, this is also the way basic shihonage was taught by Saito sensei.
Yes, I've trained with people in that lineage, and I'm familiar with it. It is closer to what I am talking about than what is shown by either kondo or Tissier in their videos. The pin by Ueshiba is pretty classic aikijujutsu, too, At the advanced level, shiho nage should be impossible to take ukemi from (in the sense of flipping out of it). There should also be no strain on the joints.
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Old 01-31-2015, 05:00 PM   #19
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Re: YouTube: Christian Tissier, 2014

Quote:
David Soroko wrote: View Post

For whatever it's worth, this is also the way basic shihonage was taught by Saito sensei.
I have no problem with this basic form of shiho nage, but we practice both.
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Old 01-31-2015, 05:02 PM   #20
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Re: YouTube: Christian Tissier, 2014

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Old 01-31-2015, 05:21 PM   #21
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Re: YouTube: Christian Tissier, 2014

Quote:
Oisin Bourke wrote: View Post
Yes, I've trained with people in that lineage, and I'm familiar with it. It is closer to what I am talking about than what is shown by either kondo or Tissier in their videos. The pin by Ueshiba is pretty classic aikijujutsu, too, At the advanced level, shiho nage should be impossible to take ukemi from (in the sense of flipping out of it). There should also be no strain on the joints.
Never in the many, many times I have seen shihonage demonstrated, was any part of it called "aiki jujitsu". We just practice the form that was taught by Saito sensei as it was taught to him by the founder.

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Old 01-31-2015, 05:30 PM   #22
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Re: YouTube: Christian Tissier, 2014

Quote:
Markus Rohde wrote: View Post
I have no problem with this basic form of shiho nage, but we practice both.
Why only two variants? I am sure there are many other ways of doing shihonage like waza, why not practice them as well?

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Old 02-01-2015, 12:58 AM   #23
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Re: YouTube: Christian Tissier, 2014

Saito Hitohiro sensei: shiho nage.
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Old 02-01-2015, 04:32 AM   #24
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Re: YouTube: Christian Tissier, 2014

Quote:
David Soroko wrote: View Post
Why only two variants? I am sure there are many other ways of doing shihonage like waza, why not practice them as well?
Yes of course, but here were discussed mainly two.
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Old 02-01-2015, 05:15 AM   #25
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Re: YouTube: Christian Tissier, 2014

Quote:
Markus Rohde wrote: View Post
Shiho nage was created for breaking elbows.
If you cannot see this any more, it's no shiho nage.
But I never heard about that Tissier broke any elbow. There were others who damged people.

Tissier talks about that.
But it's ok for a skilled uke to be thrown like that, because he is able to protect himself. If he couldn't do, Tissier wouldn't throw him like that.
It's about being not afraid and keeping the body relaxed. For me it's an important part of the development in Aikido.
Dear Markus,

Taking your viewpoint to the extreme if Shiho Nage was developed to break elbows why not do this currently to students?I do not think any uke would appreciate a broken elbow.Our Health Cetres would be overwhelmed .Its not about being afraid or relaxed its about teachers using common sense and safe practice.If Tissier or anbody else took a beginner and threw him like shown would the junior survive? I think not. Cheers, Joe.
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