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Old 01-29-2015, 08:58 AM   #51
lbb
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Re: Aikido: Striking all along?

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Hansel Wong wrote: View Post
What is a strike? If not introducing one's face into another's hand? Why not call that a strike? A strike by any other name will bruise just as easily.
Well, now you're humpty dumptying, and I'm not really interested in playing that game. Have fun with it.
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Old 01-29-2015, 09:09 AM   #52
Jonathan
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Re: Aikido: Striking all along?

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Attacker lying on the ground unconscious is no longer attacking and therefore no longer contributing negative energy to the world.

Or, if you prefer more precise terminology, all of his kinetic energy has dissipated harmlessly.
And the balance in this? How does preventing one person's "negative energy" bring anything into balance? Why/how is dissipating an attacker's kinetic energy an act of bringing balance?

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men aren't reasonable or even rational which kinda questions the whole martial arts thing, which includes aikido.
I think you have overstated - perhaps for humorous effect - the fact of the matter. Men may do things or think things that are not reasonable or rational but this by no means precludes them from ever being reasonable or rational, nor does it excuse them from making the effort to be so. I don't see my martial arts training as irrational or unreasonable. Quite the opposite, in fact.

"Iron sharpens iron; so a man sharpens the countenance of his friend."
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Old 01-29-2015, 09:10 AM   #53
earnest aikidoka
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Re: Aikido: Striking all along?

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Phi Truong wrote: View Post
the fact that we practicing aikido brings the whole intelligent thing in to question. if we are smart about it, we shouldn't go anywhere near it, but we are here.

men aren't reasonable or even rational which kinda questions the whole martial arts thing, which includes aikido. reasonable men shouldn't be wearing skirts, except for the scotts, but they have an excuse. reasonable men should spend time and money on foods, drinks, and comely member of the opposite sex or even the same.

then the whole question on the explanation of aiki. asking 10 aikido folks on aiki and you got 11 answers. there are threads about aiki on aikiweb that went back to the dawn of time, when men first step out of the cave, scratching their privates and wondering if left over mammoth still good for breakfast. aiki wars had been fought over aiki that burned down half the net, and the other half went looking for a place to carouse and be a public nuisance. many of us still have scars and in therapy with other uggly men armed that with uggly sticks with nails on them. we don't like to talk about it other than over a pint or two or three. you really don't want to know about aiki. i would suggest that you stick with "do", and perhaps, re and mi come along for the rescue.
Uh?
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Old 01-29-2015, 09:16 AM   #54
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Re: Aikido: Striking all along?

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Mary Malmros wrote: View Post
Well, now you're humpty dumptying, and I'm not really interested in playing that game. Have fun with it.
Alright, apologies. I have a habit of playing with words abit, lets talk academically. What then is a strike? if what you described as putting an arm out and someone running into it is not a strike or throw, what is it?
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Old 01-29-2015, 09:20 AM   #55
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Re: Aikido: Striking all along?

Quote:
Phi Truong wrote: View Post
... there are threads about aiki on aikiweb that went back to the dawn of time, when men first step out of the cave, scratching their privates and wondering if left over mammoth still good for breakfast. aiki wars had been fought over aiki that burned down half the net, and the other half went looking for a place to carouse and be a public nuisance. many of us still have scars and in therapy with other uggly men armed that with uggly sticks with nails on them. we don't like to talk about it other than over a pint or two or three. you really don't want to know about aiki. i would suggest that you stick with "do", and perhaps, re and mi come along for the rescue.
HEY, MAN!!! The first rule of Aiki Club is, you don't talk about AikiClub ... !

Cordially,

Erick Mead
一隻狗可久里馬房但他也不是馬的.
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Old 01-29-2015, 09:26 AM   #56
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Re: Aikido: Striking all along?

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Hansel Wong wrote: View Post
How do you get your sword to cut the opponent? Standing at a distance and swinging wildly? Or using footwork, timing, agility and mental strength? A sword cuts, a fist hits, truly here is a difference. However, does the principle behind behind getting your sword to the target or the fist to the face differ? On a technical level perhaps, but when one looks deeper, the principles are the same. That is why all traditional martial arts incorporate weapons in the training, because what one does with the fist will translate into how one uses a weapon. I am not talking about strategy and tactics here, I am talking about training and how one goes about preparing one's body to utilize effectively, strategy and tactics. By training in weapons, one improves his fist technique. There is a correlation between the two areas and as aikidoka or any other martial artist, this is something that should not be neglected.
As somebody already pointed out, when you cut with sword, in the moment of the contact there is a slicing movement, you are not pushing like in striking. This is rather basic knowledge. You seem to lack it. Generation of the power inside of human body for slice with sword is very different then when striking with fist. Consequently you have to use different principles to create such power.

That is why your thesis about aikido as striking art is fundamentally wrong IMO.

Nagababa

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Old 01-29-2015, 09:37 AM   #57
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Re: Aikido: Striking all along?

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Szczepan Janczuk wrote: View Post
As somebody already pointed out, when you cut with sword, in the moment of the contact there is a slicing movement, you are not pushing like in striking. This is rather basic knowledge. You seem to lack it. Generation of the power inside of human body for slice with sword is very different then when striking with fist. Consequently you have to use different principles to create such power.

That is why your thesis about aikido as striking art is fundamentally wrong IMO.
I believe that aikido is an art that has managed to combine sword principles with hand to hand combat, and that us what I wish to explore, through this and other means. Though we may strike with the fist, we move with the sword and aikido combines both these into a total martial art, and that is IMO
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Old 01-29-2015, 10:04 AM   #58
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Re: Aikido: Striking all along?

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Alright, apologies. I have a habit of playing with words abit, lets talk academically. What then is a strike? if what you described as putting an arm out and someone running into it is not a strike or throw, what is it?
Hansel, you've got no need to apologize. This is just not a discussion/debate that I'm at all interested in, that's all. It has no resolution, and leads nowhere that I'm interested in going. I simply don't care to argue the nuances of what is and isn't a strike. I have my own commonsense definition of it, and that's good enough for me. If I'm running down a trail and I hit a tree limb, the tree limb didn't "strike" me, as I see it. You see differently. OK. I don't accept your definition and I don't care if you accept mine, so there's nothing more to talk about.
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Old 01-29-2015, 10:45 AM   #59
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Re: Aikido: Striking all along?

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I'll concede that aikido is quite recent and it has deviated from aikijujitsu, but it's history is most definitely martial and in fact it has been used in modern military and law enforcement today, which are modern battlefields if nothing else. And if you are saying that that is wrong.
I am saying that aikido, itself, has never been a battlefield art. To claim that it is because it derives from older arts is to completely ignore Ueshiba Sensei's contributions, and in particular the many many changes in aikido between his experiences in Mongolia -- his last personal battlefield experience -- and his death 65 years later.

The differences between modern law enforcement and any battlefield -- modern or otherwise -- are so vast that attempting to equate them is likely to lead to disastrous mistakes in both strategy and tactics. (See many recent US examples.)

Katherine
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Old 01-29-2015, 10:47 AM   #60
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Re: Aikido: Striking all along?

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3) One technique springs 1000. Very true, what is that one technique? From a punch, a thousand possibilities, from a tackle a thousand holds. But from what physical technique in aikido springs forth the thousands?
Ikkyo.

Katherine
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Old 01-29-2015, 11:20 AM   #61
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Re: Aikido: Striking all along?

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Katherine Derbyshire wrote: View Post
Ikkyo.

Katherine
nooooooo not ikkyo! anything but ikkyo! that's too horrible a punishment! we usually beat up folks who suggesting ikkyo! although i heard Saotome sensei said "ikkyo for life!" which i was going to make a t-shirt with that quote, after he dropped a bunch of different versions of ikkyo on me.

"budo is putting on cold, wet, sweat stained gi with a smile and a snarl" - your truly
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Old 01-29-2015, 11:40 AM   #62
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Re: Aikido: Striking all along?

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Hansel Wong wrote: View Post
1) I think as intelligent practitioners of Aiki and aikido we should make the effort to explain what is aiki in proper, layman terms, to the best of our ability. This is how reasonable men think and aikido is a reasonable martial art.

2) Of course I am looking closely at aikido, I love it and I want to bring it higher, aikido is me and I am aikido, why would I not scrutinize the flaws in my own person to further my development?

3) One technique springs 1000. Very true, what is that one technique? From a punch, a thousand possibilities, from a tackle a thousand holds. But from what physical technique in aikido springs forth the thousands?
First, I would argue that aikido is not a lay-art and that its education is not consumable in lay terms. Much like an advanced education, there is some necessary prior education that must exist. For me, that is a prior experience feeling aiki from someone who possesses it - It Has To Be Felt (IHTBF). I think part of aikido's problem is that there are plenty of people who will tell you what is aiki in proper, layman's terms to the best of their ability.

Scrutiny is not bad as long as it's applied evenly. To Phi's point, keep the interest in you and what you want to get out of aikido. Aikido is a big tent with plenty of people that want something different from their training. Most arts have strengths and weaknesses and most arts have some segment of the training population that does not represent the art.

Katherine beat me to the classic technique that comes to mind. For variety's sake, I'll say aiki is the one technique from which springs 10,000, which I believe is the actual quote.

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Old 01-29-2015, 12:24 PM   #63
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Re: Aikido: Striking all along?

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Jon Reading wrote: View Post
Katherine beat me to the classic technique that comes to mind. For variety's sake, I'll say aiki is the one technique from which springs 10,000, which I believe is the actual quote.
I would agree, except that I don't see aiki as a technique. It's a fundamental body skill.

Katherine
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Old 01-29-2015, 12:33 PM   #64
kewms
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Re: Aikido: Striking all along?

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Jon Reading wrote: View Post
First, I would argue that aikido is not a lay-art and that its education is not consumable in lay terms. Much like an advanced education, there is some necessary prior education that must exist.
I agree. My work involves "translating" very technical material for non-specialists. Without *some* level of prior understanding, the necessary simplification necessarily leaves the research I'm writing about sounding either obvious or silly. Same with aikido. I can't explain sub-wavelength optical lithography to someone with no prior understanding of optics, and I can't explain aiki to someone who isn't willing to get on the mat with a skilled teacher. At some point, it's a waste of everyone's time to try.

Katherine
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Old 01-29-2015, 12:42 PM   #65
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Re: Aikido: Striking all along?

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Hansel Wong wrote: View Post
I believe that aikido is an art that has managed to combine sword principles with hand to hand combat, and that us what I wish to explore, through this and other means. Though we may strike with the fist, we move with the sword and aikido combines both these into a total martial art, and that is IMO
I think you've got it slightly backwards.

Empty hand techniques are what you do if you're unfortunate enough to lose or break your sword, or if you're in a situation where you don't have it handy.

That is, sword is not an evolution from empty hand, empty hand is an evolution from sword.

Katherine
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Old 01-29-2015, 03:25 PM   #66
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Re: Aikido: Striking all along?

As interesting as this thread has become, I would like to set some parameters as to what I am hoping would be discussed.

The main topic is:

Was aikido meant to be a striking art in the first place? Based on the points I raised in the original post;

Whether you agree or disagree, please make sure that your points or comments link back to the above topic.

Any questions regarding my motivations for such a thread, my apparent lack of experience as some would say, any post that has stock answers that are pulled out of an aikido book, or one word answers like 'aikido is aiki' will be ignored and deleted once I figure out how to do it on this forum.

This is not meant to be a bashing on other people's beliefs and ideas, merely a chance to get people thinking and hopefully engage in some meaningful discussion that will help us all learn something. I admit my wrong in encouraging the derailment of this thread and apologize with promises that it will not happen again. Please abide by this or don't bother posting.

Thank you.
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Old 01-29-2015, 03:37 PM   #67
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Re: Aikido: Striking all along?

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Hansel Wong wrote: View Post
Uh?
The answer to the question "Uh ?" -- is almost always: "Phi."
... which I am sure he would have said had I not said it first...


Cordially,

Erick Mead
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Old 01-29-2015, 04:36 PM   #68
kewms
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Re: Aikido: Striking all along?

Sorry, this is a public forum, not a blog or a Facebook post. You don't "own" the conversation and don't get to decide what responses are "allowed."

Katherine
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Old 01-29-2015, 05:18 PM   #69
Janet Rosen
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Re: Aikido: Striking all along?

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Hansel Wong wrote: View Post
As interesting as this thread has become, I would like to set some parameters as to what I am hoping would be discussed.

The main topic is:

Was aikido meant to be a striking art in the first place? Based on the points I raised in the original post;

Whether you agree or disagree, please make sure that your points or comments link back to the above topic.

Any questions regarding my motivations for such a thread, my apparent lack of experience as some would say, any post that has stock answers that are pulled out of an aikido book, or one word answers like 'aikido is aiki' will be ignored and deleted once I figure out how to do it on this forum.

This is not meant to be a bashing on other people's beliefs and ideas, merely a chance to get people thinking and hopefully engage in some meaningful discussion that will help us all learn something. I admit my wrong in encouraging the derailment of this thread and apologize with promises that it will not happen again. Please abide by this or don't bother posting.

Thank you.
This IS a public forum; several of us have tried addressing your points from very specific logical or historical perspectives and it appears you simply want validation....as for how it is run, it is moderated by the owner/moderator for egregious nastiness and ad hominen attacks, and if he sees a thread really going off tangent, he may spin off a separate thread.
Personally, having made my point and found you unwilling to engage in a way I find productive, I am bowing out. I wish you the best in your training and your investigations - that is meant sincerely - and suggest you may want to ponder, keep training and investigating, and come back in 6 months or a year to let us know what you find.

Janet Rosen
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"peace will enter when hate is gone"--percy mayfield
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Old 01-29-2015, 06:49 PM   #70
earnest aikidoka
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Re: Aikido: Striking all along?

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Timothy Walters Kleinert wrote: View Post
I would first like to ask for your pardon that I have failed to properly reply to you and your post. I have allowed myself to be distracted by replying non-essential comments and failed to notice the comments that are worth replying or pursuing.

The quote you placed about atemi from Guillemard is interesting and on the surface coincides with my views, could you perhaps elaborate on the quote? I am not entirely sure of its meaning.
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Old 01-29-2015, 06:56 PM   #71
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Re: Aikido: Striking all along?

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Erick Mead wrote: View Post
I support your broader observation about the primacy of striking -- even in the non-striking applications -- wholeheartedly. But at the point of drawing equivalence \between the principle of the fists and that of the sword, I would strongly argue that they are NOT the same and it is that distinction that drives the difference of action involved in the respective arts. A fist impacts bluntly, a sword penetrates and separates. Two entirely different mechanisms of action. And the underlying physics and mechanics of the sword -- not blunt impact -- operate in aikido, even when the sword is not actually present.

On this I agree but my ordering is the inverse, and the nature of the sword defines aiki. Even the work with the jo is applying the principles of the sword in a different medium as taijutsu applies it in yet another.

Another way of looking at it is that it is simply aiki being applied across all three domains in aikido, which is not wrong -- but apart from the unnecessary tautology - the sword is the source, in my view.
1) but power generation in swinging a sword and power generation in throwing strike is the same in aikido right? Is that not why we train using shomen and yokomen bare-handed cuts? If we use the same hip and leg motion when striking with blade and empty hands, does that not indicate a link between knife hand strikes and punching? I won't speak about kicks because aikido traditionally does not talk much about kicks in general except in regards to defences against them.
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Old 01-29-2015, 09:09 PM   #72
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Re: Aikido: Striking all along?

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1) but power generation in swinging a sword and power generation in throwing strike is the same in aikido right? Is that not why we train using shomen and yokomen bare-handed cuts?
"To a point, Lord Copper, to a point..." -- which is a literary and diplomatic way of saying, "No." Cutting action is about seamless momentum, core stability, and a smoothly reducing radius of cut -- not "power" in the sense of maximizing impact force, which is the root principle of blunt striking -- and results in really bad cuts -- as in not cutting at all.

Truly efficient hand strikes and aikido strikes are for this reason in different universes. Shomenuchi is NOT a shuto strike (who strikes a hard skull with an open hand for criminy's sake!) One reason our striking is criticized from a fisticuff perspective is that it is (wrongly) assumed to supposed to be like them, when it isn't. The weapon aspect is always implied, and never absent -- shomenuchi is actually a length of rebar, a chain, tire iron, knife, a beer bottle... This is not the case in most striking arts, in which the weapons principles are largely handled as adjuncts -- here, it is the foundation -- even when not taught that way.

This is also the reason why aikido and aiki arts are not truly grappling arts either -- a knife cannot really be grappled. It's too damnably fast. A knife strike CAN be counterstruck safely in one way though, and it is on this principle that tanto-dori depends to work effectively when practicing aiki -- same as in the kihon waza. Strike and counterstrike must mesh -- like scissors -- and in that configuration,neither blade can harm the other. And so entry (irimi) MUST continue without ceasing, mirroring the other on a tangent -- because if you reverse action, the knife cuts you on the reversal as you withdraw. The only safe way is further in, and the only way to go continually inward in a finite space between opponents is a spiral.

Quote:
If we use the same hip and leg motion when striking with blade and empty hands, does that not indicate a link between knife hand strikes and punching?
Yes, in the sense they both involve the hand -- other than that -- not so much...

Quote:
I won't speak about kicks because aikido traditionally does not talk much about kicks in general except in regards to defenses against them.
Mainly,kicks have an advantage against a true hand-striking art -- but not in anything with a serious weapon -- a piece of rebar, bat, staff or even a 2x4 will pretty much end the kicking portion of our show -- and probably destroy the kicker's mobility into the bargain.

Cordially,

Erick Mead
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Old 01-29-2015, 09:26 PM   #73
Jonathan
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Re: Aikido: Striking all along?

I'm not convinced Aikido was intended to be primarily a striking art. This isn't to imply, though, that striking plays no role at all in Aikido. I believe striking is vital to the effective application of Aikido technique. Especially against any skilled martial artist, it is a fantasy to believe one could apply Aikido technique without the distracting, confusing and corrupting effect of a well-placed blow (or cut, if one is fussy about the relationship between Aikido and sword-work). But the Aikido I was taught revolved around blending, entering, spiraling and locks, pins and throws, not striking. We learned the three basic cutting strikes derived from sword-work, but no hooks, jabs, crosses, straights, or combinations thereof. And as I have been exposed over the years to a broader spectrum of Aikido, I have observed that my early training in Aikido is quite common. Very few dojo place any more than the most cursory emphasis on striking. You can see the atrocious results in thousands of Aikido videos where the attack that is given to nage by uke is clumsy, weak, ill-focused and insincere. Regardless, I still do not think Aikido is fundamentally a striking art.

"Iron sharpens iron; so a man sharpens the countenance of his friend."
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Old 01-30-2015, 10:41 AM   #74
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Re: Aikido: Striking all along?

In Aikido as I train strikes are implied and respected. Correct distance is considered very important and is emphasized as what makes aikido different from others arts. So the strike is respected but not emphasized so I would have to say no it is not a striking art.

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Old 01-30-2015, 06:36 PM   #75
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Re: Aikido: Striking all along?

The O/P said, "Based on this definition, It is my opinion that aikido is primarily a striking art."

To which I'd respond, maybe your aikido is, mine isn't. I understand your logical basis and I think it is sound in the direction it is going. However, unless you define when I put my hand on someone to find them/feel them and their direction of movmeent and intent (fast or slow, I don't care) as a "strike" then I think what I do is more akin to grappling than striking.

Note, I can strike plenty good if/when the opportunity would present itself, but I don't think of that as very aiki, as that sort of impact doesn't seem "blendy" to me at all, except in the motorized sense.

I find it interesting that the kanji character for kuzushi illustrates a mountain falling on a house.
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