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Old 11-07-2014, 05:47 AM   #26
phitruong
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Re: YouTube: Kotegaeshi - Basic and Variations

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Gerardo Torres wrote: View Post
Yep, seen it a lot too. And it's still a very bad idea no matter who does it. Once you let your elbows and arms go past the body wall you're prone to being exploited and it would be hard to keep connection and recover from it. And as somebody who likes to relate sword to aikido like Tissier, what kind of sword movement justifies such arm movement?
Yep. it's the running-around-uke approach. generally, aikido folks fall into two camps: running-around-uke or make-uke-do-the-running-around. my personal preference is make-uke-do-the-running-around. i figure that i will get older and my muscle will decay which makes running around uke kinda hard. so i trained for old age at the start so that i don't have to retrain myself later. Saotome sensei often used the log bridge example. tenkan on log bridge and you go into the ditch. you want the other bugger doing the tenkan. and since if the other bugger doing the tenkan, your arms should be right in front of you the whole time.

"budo is putting on cold, wet, sweat stained gi with a smile and a snarl" - your truly
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Old 11-07-2014, 06:04 AM   #27
phitruong
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Re: YouTube: Kotegaeshi - Basic and Variations

Quote:
Cliff Judge wrote: View Post
I'm curious to see a video of kotegaeshi that you guys think is more manly and effective. Got any links?
i kinda like the unmanly stuffs. unwomanly too for that matter. my favorite is emu-ly. how emu does kotegaeshi is still a mystery. but emuly just rolls right off the tongue

emuly
emuly
emuly

"budo is putting on cold, wet, sweat stained gi with a smile and a snarl" - your truly
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Old 11-07-2014, 06:27 AM   #28
Walter Martindale
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Re: YouTube: Kotegaeshi - Basic and Variations

Quote:
Carsten Möllering wrote: View Post
This is the typical way to do kote gaeshi for a whole lot of teachers. Christian Tissier shihan being one of them. I also learned to do it that way.
That's fine. I was remarking on how I was trained and one of the shihan from whom that came. Other relatively high ranked folks who have been rather firm in their exhortations to keep the workspace in front have been Takase (New Zealand, 7th dan), Williamson (New Zealand, 6th dan), and the Aikikai Hombu shihan who have visited both Canada and NZ.

As well... the difference in how it feels when my arm is behind me vs. when in front - one feels weak and "oh gosh I'm glad I'm strong enough to pull this guy around but it feels weak" vs "gotcha, you're mine"...

W
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Old 11-07-2014, 06:53 AM   #29
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Re: YouTube: Kotegaeshi - Basic and Variations

We worked on the wide open tenkan in class last night. I think the exaggerated tenken in training allows for possibilities. And an added benefit is that it feels beautiful.

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Old 11-07-2014, 08:56 AM   #30
Alex Megann
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Re: YouTube: Kotegaeshi - Basic and Variations

This is my teacher in a demonstration back in the 1980s.

At just after the 1:00 mark he does suwariwaza kotegaeshi. The overall movement is similar to that in the original clip, but in my opinion the movement is much more concise, with no "slack" in the contact with the partner.

Alex
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Old 11-07-2014, 03:36 PM   #31
Janet Rosen
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Re: YouTube: Kotegaeshi - Basic and Variations

Quote:
Phi Truong wrote: View Post
i kinda like the unmanly stuffs. unwomanly too for that matter. my favorite is emu-ly. how emu does kotegaeshi is still a mystery. but emuly just rolls right off the tongue

emuly
emuly
emuly
Well, emulation is the sincerest form of flattery and I like my ukes flattery on their backs

Personally when training in Aikido (figure I better specify...) I do not care how good a movement feels; if it gives my partner an opening, I prefer a smaller movement that keeps me in better connection.

Janet Rosen
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Old 11-07-2014, 04:18 PM   #32
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Re: YouTube: Kotegaeshi - Basic and Variations

I'm not sure I saw kotegaeshi actually being applied. If the excuse is its a demo, what was it demonstrating?

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Old 11-07-2014, 04:42 PM   #33
Peter Goldsbury
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Re: YouTube: Kotegaeshi - Basic and Variations

Quote:
Alex Megann wrote: View Post
This is my teacher in a demonstration back in the 1980s.

At just after the 1:00 mark he does suwariwaza kotegaeshi. The overall movement is similar to that in the original clip, but in my opinion the movement is much more concise, with no "slack" in the contact with the partner.

Alex
Hello Alex,

Ahh, this takes me back to an earlier period, before I came here. There is some Yamaguchi influence in the YouTube demo.

The OP shows a demonstration at Hirosaki University, in Aomori Prefecture, Japan. It is not clear whether it was specially staged to show the variations in kotegaeshi, or was part of a larger demonstration. I have had nearly 30 years experience of Japanese university aikido and can state with some confidence that the major aim of university aikido is to do learn how to do athletic, flowing ukemi. Very little attention is paid to the effectiveness of the waza themselves and if individual students try to make the waza effective -- to the detriment of the flowing ukemi, they tend to get hammered down. It is simply assumed that if the waza follows the correct form, then it must be effective and it is uke's task to show the correct form. As a famous aikidoka once said, 'it's a lot like dancing', but in predetermined steps with a partner

P A Goldsbury
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Old 11-07-2014, 08:24 PM   #34
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Re: YouTube: Kotegaeshi - Basic and Variations

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Peter A Goldsbury wrote: View Post
Hello Alex,

Ahh, this takes me back to an earlier period, before I came here. There is some Yamaguchi influence in the YouTube demo.

The OP shows a demonstration at Hirosaki University, in Aomori Prefecture, Japan. It is not clear whether it was specially staged to show the variations in kotegaeshi, or was part of a larger demonstration. I have had nearly 30 years experience of Japanese university aikido and can state with some confidence that the major aim of university aikido is to do learn how to do athletic, flowing ukemi. Very little attention is paid to the effectiveness of the waza themselves and if individual students try to make the waza effective -- to the detriment of the flowing ukemi, they tend to get hammered down. It is simply assumed that if the waza follows the correct form, then it must be effective and it is uke's task to show the correct form. As a famous aikidoka once said, 'it's a lot like dancing', but in predetermined steps with a partner
Interesting. Does PE judo follow similar tendencies?

Ichi Go, Ichi Ei!
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Old 11-07-2014, 10:16 PM   #35
lifestylemanoz
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Talking Re: YouTube: Kotegaeshi - Basic and Variations

Hi Mihaly,

Looks like a lot of fun and great posturing and follow through on techniques. A+ from me.

Something to aspire to in your Aiki training.

Reposted to my blog
http://aikidohombu.com/fun-variations-kotegaeshi/

As a mma aikidoka, I appreciate incorporating this style of practice into my training. It's all about movement...

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Old 11-08-2014, 02:51 AM   #36
Alex Megann
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Re: YouTube: Kotegaeshi - Basic and Variations

Quote:
Peter A Goldsbury wrote: View Post
Hello Alex,

Ahh, this takes me back to an earlier period, before I came here. There is some Yamaguchi influence in the YouTube demo.

The OP shows a demonstration at Hirosaki University, in Aomori Prefecture, Japan. It is not clear whether it was specially staged to show the variations in kotegaeshi, or was part of a larger demonstration. I have had nearly 30 years experience of Japanese university aikido and can state with some confidence that the major aim of university aikido is to do learn how to do athletic, flowing ukemi. Very little attention is paid to the effectiveness of the waza themselves and if individual students try to make the waza effective -- to the detriment of the flowing ukemi, they tend to get hammered down. It is simply assumed that if the waza follows the correct form, then it must be effective and it is uke's task to show the correct form. As a famous aikidoka once said, 'it's a lot like dancing', but in predetermined steps with a partner
Hi Peter,

That is a very interesting and useful observation about Japanese University aikido. We have had the occasional Japanese student pass through our dojo (we have a lady shodan practising with us now), and what you say explains a lot!

Alex
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Old 11-08-2014, 10:22 AM   #37
Keith Larman
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Re: YouTube: Kotegaeshi - Basic and Variations

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Demetrio Cereijo wrote: View Post
Martial homeopathy.
I think I've probably butted heads with Demetrio a few times, but... gotta admit... That made me laugh out loud.

I realize it's also why it's damned near impossible to have a conversation about aikido and effectiveness. I have zero problem saying that what I see is probably "proper" aikido. The reason for that, of course, is that I think "proper aikido" is a diverse, complicated beast nowadays. Just because some version or another isn't my cup of tea, doesn't make it not Aikido.

Interestingly enough I told a visiting student recently that I view aikido much like pizza. Lots of it, lots of styles, most people are happy enough with what they get or have access to, but having tried a whole lot of different types there's a whole lot out there that I would never eat... I have no problem saying it's all pizza and I have no problem understanding that each type has its cheer leaders. But me, well, I'm particular, and I don't want to waste my discretionary calorie intake on some types even if it has its own fan base. It doesn't mean I look down my nose at someone enjoying their slice from Pizza Hut... But I digress...

Sorry, just felt that I should give proper credit... "Martial Homeopathy"

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Old 11-08-2014, 10:33 AM   #38
Malicat
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Re: YouTube: Kotegaeshi - Basic and Variations

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Cliff Judge wrote: View Post
I'm curious to see a video of kotegaeshi that you guys think is more manly and effective. Got any links?
Well, this is how we do it, at least. I'm not one to judge manly, but Hawley Shihan has done it to me, and I'll definitely vouch for effective.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U2bn...ature=youtu.be

--Ashley
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Old 11-08-2014, 12:24 PM   #39
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Re: YouTube: Kotegaeshi - Basic and Variations

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Mary Malmros wrote: View Post
Nage has a lot of movement - I think that's where he's getting his kuzushi (not even goin' there whether he has kuzushi for real or his ukes are just playin'). But, wow, he brings the hand up awfully high before applying the kotegaeshi. I've always been told that's a big no-no because it gives uke the opportunity to get their balance back. What would stop that from happening in this case? The movement?
Nope, that movement wouldn't "keep" the attacker off-balance, and you're exactly right IMO, raising the hand gives uke back their balance.

I agree, it's a nifty-looking demo of some neat-o kotegaeshi variations applied on a willing and cooperative uke. A good way to show different directions of technique, but the video is a bit too cooperative and uke a bit too willing to show what'd actually be expressed like.

But, to be fair, it is very hard to show "actual" technique in a pretty way, unless you are crazy, mad-scientist, Buddha O-sensei kind of good (there are some high level folks out there like that right now). I can drop a person where I want with kotegaeshi as Phi said above, but it is very seldom pretty. They are almost mutually-exclusive.

I find it interesting that the kanji character for kuzushi illustrates a mountain falling on a house.
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Old 11-08-2014, 06:38 PM   #40
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Re: YouTube: Kotegaeshi - Basic and Variations

To me - the whole purpose of Aikido is to develop aiki. If the guy doing the demo thinks he is some bad-ass martial artist defending himself - then, nope. If he is trying to develop harmony and working on taking uke's balance - then ok. Is he adding a mix of 'martial' to it? Let each person judge. Is he there yet? Are we there yet? Nope. But the thing is - you can't learn aiki with crunch style self-defence aikido. There is demo Aikido, self-defence Aikido, grading Aikido, and Aikido to learn aiki. As long as you mix it all up and know what you are doing and why, it doesn't really matter. There will always be someone to criticise but at the end of the day all we can do is just concentrate on sorting out our own stuff. The guy in the demo is on the right track and if he keeps at it will only get better.

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Old 11-09-2014, 01:48 AM   #41
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Re: YouTube: Kotegaeshi - Basic and Variations

Quote:
Rupert Atkinson wrote: View Post
To me - the whole purpose of Aikido is to develop aiki. If the guy doing the demo thinks he is some bad-ass martial artist defending himself - then, nope. If he is trying to develop harmony and working on taking uke's balance - then ok. Is he adding a mix of 'martial' to it? Let each person judge. Is he there yet? Are we there yet? Nope. But the thing is - you can't learn aiki with crunch style self-defence aikido. There is demo Aikido, self-defence Aikido, grading Aikido, and Aikido to learn aiki. As long as you mix it all up and know what you are doing and why, it doesn't really matter. There will always be someone to criticise but at the end of the day all we can do is just concentrate on sorting out our own stuff. The guy in the demo is on the right track and if he keeps at it will only get better.
+1

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Old 11-09-2014, 08:17 AM   #42
Bernd Lehnen
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Re: YouTube: Kotegaeshi - Basic and Variations

Defence against a knife is always highly questionable.

Quote:
Markus Rohde wrote: View Post
Usually the knife would be in the hand on which kotegaeshi is applied...
Aside from that we do kotegashi against a knifeattack a little bit ditfferent.
The free hand is always a problem in normal kotegaeshi.

To keep the hand behind the body ist poosible if the connection between the hand and the center is strong enough, but not many people can really move uke in that way effectivly.
Normally, from a martial point of view, it's a no go.
In the case of the first video and also in Tissiers movement, there is no control on uke in the moment when he turns his back to uke, no kuzsuhi was apllied.
True, especially when the attacker immediately attacks with the saya while his other (free) hand is stabbing you with the tanto.

Quote:
Mary Malmros wrote: 
Nage has a lot of movement - I think that's where he's getting his kuzushi (not even goin' there whether he has kuzushi for real or his ukes are just playin'). But, wow, he brings the hand up awfully high before applying the kotegaeshi. I've always been told that's a big no-no because it gives uke the opportunity to get their balance back. What would stop that from happening in this case? The movement?
I 've been taught so, too. But, evidently, even O-Sensei in his 1953 movie didn't take this all too literally, when throwing Tohei ( please watch 2.21 - 2.22). He didn't simply restrict himself to martial rule. So you might conclude, he didn't have (knife-) defense or anything martial predominantly in mind.
What, then, would have been his priority? Internal training, they say.
Time to watch and ponder…

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http://植芝 盛平
Best,
Bernd

Last edited by Bernd Lehnen : 11-09-2014 at 08:28 AM.
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Old 11-09-2014, 12:26 PM   #43
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Re: YouTube: Kotegaeshi - Basic and Variations

Quote:
Alex Megann wrote: View Post
This is my teacher in a demonstration back in the 1980s.
After a seminar (I guess) with Kanetsuka in Darlington around 1985 my eyes were opened to what Aikido represented to everyone else outside our little sensible club.
Our little club hadn't really experienced people falling down for nothing (well, there was this one fat guy in a hakama : first time we ever saw one!) , notouch nonsense, and holding on for no reason ... I now understand Kanetsuka was at the more realistic end of the spectrum but at the time it was quite shocking and utterly utterly disppointing.
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Old 11-10-2014, 05:31 PM   #44
Robert Cowham
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Re: YouTube: Kotegaeshi - Basic and Variations

Quote:
Carsten Möllering wrote: View Post
This is the typical way to do kote gaeshi for a whole lot of teachers. Christian Tissier shihan being one of them. I also learned to do it that way.
I've always been curious as to the seemingly exaggerated style of Tissier sensei's kote gaishi. I'm interested to understand what the thinking is behind it.
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Old 11-11-2014, 01:33 AM   #45
Alex Megann
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Re: YouTube: Kotegaeshi - Basic and Variations

Quote:
Michael Douglas wrote: View Post
After a seminar (I guess) with Kanetsuka in Darlington around 1985 my eyes were opened to what Aikido represented to everyone else outside our little sensible club.
Our little club hadn't really experienced people falling down for nothing (well, there was this one fat guy in a hakama : first time we ever saw one!) , notouch nonsense, and holding on for no reason ... I now understand Kanetsuka was at the more realistic end of the spectrum but at the time it was quite shocking and utterly utterly disppointing.
Michael,

I'm not quite sure what your post means! When you say "people falling down for nothing" and "notouch nonsense", are you saying that Kanetsuka was showing this kind of technique? That is the complete opposite of my experience with him.

Alex
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Old 11-11-2014, 01:41 AM   #46
Rupert Atkinson
 
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Re: YouTube: Kotegaeshi - Basic and Variations

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Alex Megann wrote: View Post
Michael,

I'm not quite sure what your post means! When you say "people falling down for nothing" and "notouch nonsense", are you saying that Kanetsuka was showing this kind of technique? That is the complete opposite of my experience with him.

Alex
I second that :-)

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Old 11-12-2014, 05:51 AM   #47
Carsten Möllering
 
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Re: YouTube: Kotegaeshi - Basic and Variations

Some video showing the kote gaeshi of Christian Tissier more in detail:

Germany 2014
Budapest 2013
Vienna 2012
Belgium 2011

Two videos of Endō Seishiro, showing how to use the arms:

How to get the slack out of the arm that connects tori and uke.
How to use the free arm.

Quote:
Gerardo Torres wrote: View Post
Once you let your elbows and arms go past the body wall you're prone to being exploited and it would be hard to keep connection and recover from it.
Sounds familiar.
Thing is that we do a lot of exercises with arms/ellbows behind the body wall. We have to because in ushiro waza this is simply the setting to work with. Please refer to the first video of Endō sensei above to see some ot what we do.

Hard to describe the movement and feeling of this way of kote gaeshi. I'll try ...
Imagine spiralling, with both feet parallel.
Now imagine a scneria where the forwarding arm is holding uke's wrist. And while this point of contact is not moved (because: "Never move the point of contact ...") you let your the spiralling flow through body, so instead of forwarding the hand, your body axes starts to turn. You are looking away from uke, but there is as strong connection because you did not simply let your arm behind and loose, but you created whole body movement, with the point where your hand grabs ukes wrist as fixpoint in space.
It should create kuzusih in uke, so is not free to pushorpull or go away.

It's much more complex ... but maybe you get a glimpse? It's not that you "turn away" and "leave behind", but you "create" that situation and it is really charged with energy.
Now you pivot by stepping back with your front foot while closing from ming men. This connects to the kuzushi allready existing and uke will have to move, being led by your closing movement.

When he "meets" you he will be thrown not actually by the joint lock of kote gaeshi, but your hands only transfer kind of mountain echo ... . This is much more obvious when whatching Endō senseis kote gaeshi. (with which I'm much more familiar now ... )

Quote:
And as somebody who likes to relate sword to aikido like Tissier, what kind of sword movement justifies such arm movement?
I don't know how Christian links this to his sword work. I myself see some parallels to waki kamae and teachniques developing from that stance.
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Old 11-12-2014, 07:01 AM   #48
kfa4303
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Re: YouTube: Kotegaeshi - Basic and Variations

Great ukemi, but very bad martial form :/ This is a Martial (military) art after all.

In virtually every example Uke had ample opportunity to strike Nage as they came about following the tenkan. Sadly, they failed to do so, thus allowing Nage to continue making the same error over and over again, thereby losing the entire intent of the technique. It's a classic and all too common error that people make with Kotegaeshi. They do a great job of securing the wrist, performing tenkan only to spin Uke around right into their own face and/or path of motion, which of course defeats the entire point of the technique. To eliminate this dangerous oversight, Uke's wrist must be directed down and away from their center not merely around it such that they can pirouette and punch Nage in the nose as they should have in this instance.

Going forward each of the Uke should be encouraged to attempt to strike sensei upon coming around. It will keep them focused and grounded on their own attack, as well as giving Nage a real/valid/realistic scenario to attempt to deal with. Anything short of that is just dancing, which is what we saw by the end of this clip; bad ballroom dancing.

While it's neccessary to know a few variations, generally speaking, less is more Avoid the strike, secure the wrist, pin. No more, no less.

Aside from the lack of martial awareness, their overall movements' were very smooth and fluid, if not entirely effective.
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Old 11-12-2014, 07:57 AM   #49
sorokod
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Re: YouTube: Kotegaeshi - Basic and Variations

According to Saito Morihiro sensei:

Basic
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u-RsQgCjFTE

In sword context, time mark 5:49
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n1XRis6lcjM

In relation to sword taking, time mark: 5:10
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=geIIkMkG4Jw

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Old 11-12-2014, 08:30 AM   #50
Demetrio Cereijo
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Re: YouTube: Kotegaeshi - Basic and Variations

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Keith Larman wrote: View Post
I think I've probably butted heads with Demetrio a few times, but... gotta admit... That made me laugh out loud.
Thanks.

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