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Old 10-21-2014, 12:21 AM   #1
aiki_marcos
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Martial Art?

Fascinating article on moosin.com written by a man who knows what real Aikido looks like. I enjoyed this article immensely because he points out what real Aikido looked like when he originally learned vs. what it looks like at most dojos.

http://www.moosin.com/2013/08/is-aikido-a-martial-art/

Marcos

"wherever you go, there you are"
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Old 10-21-2014, 05:17 AM   #2
MRoh
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Re: Martial Art?

Most people believe what they learned from their first teacher is the "real" Aikido, and this teachers method would be the best way to learn aikido,

To develop fighting skills you have to fight, but the early aikido teachers had no didactic system to teach "aikido-fighting" as far as I know, just traditional aikido training. Abbe was a Judoka, so I guess (I may be wrong) it was Judo when he was teaching about fighting, and the "behind closed doors sessions" were merely scuffling then systematic combat training.

I know from my teacher, that in hombu dojo in the fifties is was still common to try out how to make the techniques work against uncooperative opponents with kicks and punches and other "tricks" and that he trained it a lot, but there was no systemization for such fighting methods, because the main focus of the training was not on fighting or competiting already at that time.
In the west aikido was introduced as a martial art system, not as way of spiritual purification, and I think some of the early teachers were willing to satisfy a wish for a new effective system of self defence, or the need of young men to prove their manliness and to compete in the contest.
Aikido never was about competiting, but everything was better in the past.

Last edited by MRoh : 10-21-2014 at 05:19 AM.
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Old 10-21-2014, 06:20 AM   #3
Demetrio Cereijo
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Re: Martial Art?

Quote:
Marc Pockrass wrote: View Post
Fascinating article on moosin.com written by a man who knows what real Aikido looks like.
The article is not news. Ellis used to post here, maybe he's still around.
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Old 10-21-2014, 06:27 AM   #4
sorokod
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Re: Martial Art?

Quote:
Markus Rohde wrote: View Post
Abbe was a Judoka, so I guess (I may be wrong)...
Very likely wrong. If you take a look at the article it says that:

...he was 8th Dan Judo, 6th Dan Karate, 6th Dan Kendo, 6th Dan Kyudo, 6th Dan Aikido

In addition, people like this tend to carry stuff that doesn't have a numeric rank attached.

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Old 10-21-2014, 06:35 AM   #5
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Post Re: Martial Art?

Quote:
David Soroko wrote: View Post
Very likely wrong. If you take a look at the article it says that:

...he was 8th Dan Judo, 6th Dan Karate, 6th Dan Kendo, 6th Dan Kyudo, 6th Dan Aikido

In addition, people like this tend to carry stuff that doesn't have a numeric rank attached.
So what he taught was not "pure" ore "real" Aikido, perhaps rather something like a mixed martial art.
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Old 10-21-2014, 06:51 AM   #6
sorokod
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Re: Martial Art?

Quote:
Markus Rohde wrote: View Post
So what he taught was not "pure" ore "real" Aikido, perhaps rather something like a mixed martial art.
Is that a question?

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Old 10-21-2014, 07:33 AM   #7
Rupert Atkinson
 
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Re: Martial Art?

Quote:
Markus Rohde wrote: View Post
So what he taught was not "pure" or "real" Aikido, perhaps rather something like a mixed martial art.
That is ....funny.

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Old 10-21-2014, 08:05 AM   #8
MRoh
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Re: Martial Art?

Quote:
David Soroko wrote: View Post
Is that a question?
More an assumption, because most people with a strong background in Judo ore other arts who studied aikido later (like Mochizuki also) rely on what they learned first ore mix it, when it comes to fighting situations, whether in real fighting or in combat-training.

And that "other stuff with no numeric rank attached" also seems to point in that direction.

If I would hold classes with the purpose to teach self defense ore combat, I also would not only include Aikido but also other stuff I learned somewhere else, and hold no numeric rank in. But I just teach traditional Aikido, no competition behind closed doors.

Last edited by MRoh : 10-21-2014 at 08:18 AM.
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Old 10-21-2014, 09:20 AM   #9
Belt_Up
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Re: Martial Art?

Ahh, real aikido. That rarest of birds.
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Old 10-21-2014, 10:07 AM   #10
Demetrio Cereijo
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Re: Martial Art?

Quote:
Rupert Atkinson wrote: View Post
That is ....funny.
You brits and your sense of humour....

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Old 10-21-2014, 12:10 PM   #11
MRoh
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Re: Martial Art?

Quote:
Rupert Atkinson wrote: View Post
That is ....funny.
I don't know.
But for some people it might be an unfamiliar idea.

Mochizuki kreated a "mixed martial art" that is called yoseikan-budo.
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Old 10-21-2014, 12:27 PM   #12
Cliff Judge
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Re: Martial Art?

Quote:
Markus Rohde wrote: View Post
So what he taught was not "pure" ore "real" Aikido, perhaps rather something like a mixed martial art.
But it had more GGGRRRRRRR in it, so it was way more real.
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Old 10-22-2014, 03:29 AM   #13
MRoh
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Re: Martial Art?

Quote:
Cliff Judge wrote: View Post
But it had more GGGRRRRRRR in it, so it was way more real.
I like to train with that kind of people which come with rolling eyes and a growl deep in their throat.
They often love it being thrown hard.

But what is real?
The story that is told in the article about Abbe's first meeting with O Sensei indicates what real aikido could be.
I wonder if this hard guys of the first students generation learned that stuff by training with GGGGRRRRR.
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Old 10-22-2014, 03:49 AM   #14
Demetrio Cereijo
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Re: Martial Art?

Quote:
Markus Rohde wrote: View Post
I wonder if this hard guys of the first students generation learned that stuff by training with GGGGRRRRR.
Kobukan was called 'Hell Dojo' because the lack of air conditioning....

BTW, there's a Mochizuki Minoru interview, published in Black Belt Magazine (Aug. 1989), where he describes how the training was like at that time and place. It seems a bit of GGGRRRRRR was present.
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Old 10-22-2014, 04:03 AM   #15
MRoh
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Re: Martial Art?

Quote:
Demetrio Cereijo wrote: View Post
Kobukan was called 'Hell Dojo' because the lack of air conditioning....
Reminds me of my teachers first Dojo, and that of my Karate teacher, and many others...
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Old 10-22-2014, 04:17 AM   #16
Alec Corper
 
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Re: Martial Art?

I pretty much agree with what Markus is saying. No disrespect intended to Henry Ellis Sensei who is a sincere and dedicated martial artist but I also believe that our first association with an art tends to form our underlying beliefs and preferences for what we, [i]subjectively[i] confided to be the true, real art.
Ther is clearly no such animal as real aikido, if there ever was.
Should we all conclude, as some do, that as O sensei declined into old age he weakened in spirit and became more philosophical and less martial. Would not such a serious, disciplined man simply trained harder to preserve that edge as long as possible, rather like many older karate and kendo teachers.
I thought aikido was Kano's ideal judo since it accomplished so much with so little and made use of hidden, internal power. I am not suggesting mystical ki nor do i want to stumble back into the vituperative aiki war zone, however there are clearly different camps in the aikido world, and none of them own The Truth.
Aikido as tough, stylised ju jutsu
Aikido as beautiful, albeit, ineffective, demonstration art
Aikido as a shugyo, austere repetition to honour the kami and cleanse the world through cleansing self
Aikido as body training via waza and knowledge to create an unbeatable internalised martial quality

I have a preference, same as everyone here, but it is just that, a preference, one that fits my beliefs and desires. I do not understand why some who claim to practice the same art, one that purports to contain greater values and depths than other arts ( a doubtful claim) still produce so much rudeness and hostility, but I do understand that the defence of one's views is equal to the defence of self. That is also strange given that most of us here know that what we thought we so deeply understood 10 years ago is less real or accurate than what we know now. If not then we make no progress, So what will we think about our mighty opinions in another 10 years?
I often meet people who are better fighters than i am (or was!) and they cary little to no philosophical baggage. i also meet those who can blather for ages on the net but whose actual blood, sweat, and tears
knowledge is rather disappointing.
Maybe this thread should be retitled to Marital art, how to preserve a relationship whilst it develops ;-)
P.S. For Markus, if you get a chance read Alan Ruddocks Aikido Memoirs for another view of British aikido. I highly recommend Chapter 11.
peace,
Alec

If your temper rises withdraw your hand, if your hand rises withdraw your temper.
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Old 10-22-2014, 09:42 AM   #17
MRoh
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Re: Martial Art?

Hi Alec,

thanks for the advise, I'll try to get a copy.
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Old 10-23-2014, 04:49 AM   #18
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Re: Martial Art?

I've been involved in Aikido in Britain for over 40 years.
Some people will tell you that in the (unspecified) old days Aikido was, faster, stronger, more "martial", tougher and more relevant than today.
I don't believe any of that. It was just different.
The early practitioners ; including the Japanese teachers of that era; were mainly fumbling through with limited teaching skills and so learning was by experience rather than anything else. That's whay in my opinion we see so much divergence in current Aikido training.
I have known trained and taught with both Mr Ruddock and Mr Ellis - two polar opposites in their approach to Aikido; which I think rather proves the point.
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Old 10-23-2014, 11:36 PM   #19
Dan Richards
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Re: Martial Art?

Quote:
Philip Smith wrote: View Post
I I don't believe any of that. It was just different.
I agree. We might be evolving from "no pain, no gain" to "no brain, no gain."

Some of these people's worlds were very local, and dependent on customs, class, culture, etc..

They had nowhere near the power or choices we have today.

The pen is, indeed, mightier than the sword.

And the imagination is infinitely more powerful than brute physical force.

I know a thousand ways to really mess people up.

I'd rather choose to heal and mutually prosper.

I know there are people training aikido today whose technique is more evolved and more sophisticated than it was forty years ago. Because someone can wrap someone on the head, or break their arm, only goes to show the insecurities. There's nothing manly about it.

Instead of breaking someone down to feel superior, support them in their time of weakness. Buy them a beer. Have a few laughs. You might have the favor returned to you some day — just when you need it most.
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Old 10-24-2014, 03:59 AM   #20
aiki_marcos
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Re: Martial Art?

Thanks Dan. Always nice to hear a second opinion.

Marcos

"wherever you go, there you are"
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Old 10-24-2014, 05:22 AM   #21
sakumeikan
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Re: Martial Art?

Quote:
Philip Smith wrote: View Post
I've been involved in Aikido in Britain for over 40 years.
Some people will tell you that in the (unspecified) old days Aikido was, faster, stronger, more "martial", tougher and more relevant than today.
I don't believe any of that. It was just different.
The early practitioners ; including the Japanese teachers of that era; were mainly fumbling through with limited teaching skills and so learning was by experience rather than anything else. That's whay in my opinion we see so much divergence in current Aikido training.
I have known trained and taught with both Mr Ruddock and Mr Ellis - two polar opposites in their approach to Aikido; which I think rather proves the point.
Dear Philip,
I do not know what period of training you did [even if we both shared the same experiences at the same courses].To draw comparisons between different period in time is sometimes hazy and is subjective.Nevertheless the japanese teachers I met were certainly faster/stronger, more martial than todays aikidoka.As far as limited teaching skills I have yet to meet a certain Aikido Shihan we both know who displayed great skills and methodology in his art as this man did.Of course as we both know emphasis was placed not on theory but 'doing' the art.
The reason why there is much divergence in U.K Aikido is imo due to breakaway groups and
guys wanting to be top man eg big fish in a little pool.As I said many moons ago U.K aikido has had more splits than a Chinese acrobat ./Can Can girl.Get three Aikidoka together now and the result would be a new association formed with the three of them vying to be the big cheese.
As far as difference in styles between Mr Ellis/Mr Ruddock the different approach is due to the fact that both men are /were different. Tamura /Yamada Shihan displayed vastly different styles but they both
are/were [in Tamura Sensei case ] excellent aikidoka. Hope you are well, Cheers, Joe.
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Old 10-24-2014, 05:34 AM   #22
sakumeikan
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Re: Martial Art?

Quote:
Demetrio Cereijo wrote: View Post
The article is not news. Ellis used to post here, maybe he's still around.
Dear Demetrio,
Mr Ellis is still around.Like him I met Abbe Sensei .When he taught Judo it was Kyu Shin Do methods.He did not mix both Aikido and Judo if he was teaching either Judo or Aikido.Abbe Sensei was an incredible martial artist, very versatile.One of the few to beat the Judo great Kimura.He also had an epic bout with one of the Robinson brothers [Joe ?] Joe Robinson was bigger , younger /heavier than Abbe Sensei.The general opinion was Abbe won the day, despite being smaller, older, lighter the than his opponent.Joe Robinson went on to appear in films [alongside Sean Connery [Diamonds are Forever].and other work.Cheers, Joe.
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Old 10-24-2014, 09:39 AM   #23
Erick Mead
 
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Re: Martial Art?

Quote:
Demetrio Cereijo wrote: View Post
Kobukan was called 'Hell Dojo' because the lack of air conditioning....
Dojo air conditioning is for sissies --- and I say that as a Gulf Coast resident.
.

Cordially,

Erick Mead
一隻狗可久里馬房但他也不是馬的.
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Old 10-29-2014, 09:09 AM   #24
Greg Jennings
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Re: Martial Art?

It was hotter there when the dojo was up in Cantonment...

Greg Jennings
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