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Old 10-14-2014, 09:34 PM   #1
Mihaly Dobroka
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Youtube: Kakari Geiko with Empty Handed and Weapons Techniques

This is a scene from the 51st Hirosaki University Aikido Demonstration.
Kakari Geiko with Empty Handed and Weapons Techniques:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7sCB...soXRkQ&index=1

What are your thoughts on this video?

Mihaly
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Old 10-14-2014, 10:58 PM   #2
Cliff Judge
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Re: Youtube: Kakari Geiko with Empty Handed and Weapons Techniques

What is Kakari Geiko?

The empty hand was decent. I loved the couole of seconds of fast and fluid suwari waza. The weapons were terrible, in particular the sword stuff was offensive.
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Old 10-15-2014, 11:14 AM   #3
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Re: Youtube: Kakari Geiko with Empty Handed and Weapons Techniques

There are various concepts how aikido practice should be done. One of them is proposing an approach where attacker is supposed to harmonize with technique of nage, and it is uke responsibility to make sure the technique looks beautiful.

I believe it is a case in this video. So yes, empty hands techniques look nice, but they don’t have any value from martial point of view. The same can be said about weapons practice.

I’d call this practice healthy gymnastic.

Nagababa

ask for divine protection Ame no Murakumo Kuki Samuhara no Ryuo
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Old 10-15-2014, 11:38 AM   #4
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Re: Youtube: Kakari Geiko with Empty Handed and Weapons Techniques

Quote:
Szczepan Janczuk wrote: View Post
There are various concepts how aikido practice should be done. One of them is proposing an approach where attacker is supposed to harmonize with technique of nage, and it is uke responsibility to make sure the technique looks beautiful.

I believe it is a case in this video. So yes, empty hands techniques look nice, but they don't have any value from martial point of view. The same can be said about weapons practice.

I'd call this practice healthy gymnastic.
This is clearly a demonstration, not practice.
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Old 10-15-2014, 12:28 PM   #5
Dan Richards
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Re: Youtube: Kakari Geiko with Empty Handed and Weapons Techniques

I think there's some really cool stuff in there. I like your exploration and where you're going with this. Some of it still looks a little raw and unrefined, but I'm sure with more time and practice things will smooth out nicely. Very cool direction you're going, and you definitely are already developing your own style.

Some of the throws look a little strange on your part. Especially after uke is released. You seem to make some wild movements and lose your body alignment. Some of the releases in this video look like you're dismissing a dirty uke and casting him like a worthless minion back to the squalor from whence he came. Is this something from a school of thought or approach you're taking?

Dan Richards
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Old 10-15-2014, 12:34 PM   #6
Adam Huss
 
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Re: Youtube: Kakari Geiko with Empty Handed and Weapons Techniques

Kakari geiko is like "round robin" style training, like group training.

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Old 10-15-2014, 01:03 PM   #7
Keith Larman
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Re: Youtube: Kakari Geiko with Empty Handed and Weapons Techniques

Tough crowd here...

Honestly, it looked like formalized testing/demonstration. Choreographed and well practiced to be sure, but still lovely to watch and some very fluid, balanced movement. The issue of strict "martial effectiveness" is another issue entirely and I'm not sure how you could evaluate them on that metric given the video. So while I get where Mr. Janczuk is coming from, I'm not sure I'd go so far. I mean, how many train every time with the full intent to do injury and with all the "reality" of intense attack. Most of us with any experience whatsoever are fully aware of doing demos. Or of testing scenarios and kata. Strikes me more like a series of kata carried out to demonstrate proficiency across a range of movements and techniques.

Nonetheless, been posting a heck of a lot less feeling like there's not enough constructive things to participate in. Me, I enjoyed watching the video for what it appears to be, and not for what it appears not to be, if that makes any sense.

Also, those students are in good shape. I'd be hurling off the sides of the mat about 2/3rds of the way in to that sequence... Which reminds me -- I have a date with one of my Australian Shepherds to do a little trail jogging before I have to get back to work.

Thanks for the link. I enjoyed the video. I also enjoyed a few of their other videos.

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Old 10-15-2014, 01:14 PM   #8
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Re: Youtube: Kakari Geiko with Empty Handed and Weapons Techniques

I'm not in much of a position to offer any critical review (not sure if that's what you're looking for). I enjoyed it! Thank you for sharing!

Gambarimashyo!
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Old 10-15-2014, 03:23 PM   #9
Keith Larman
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Re: Youtube: Kakari Geiko with Empty Handed and Weapons Techniques

I will offer one criticism, and this is one of my pet peeves. There's a section where one of the participants is "twirling" his bokken around like a baton twirling routine. "Flourishes" with the Japanese sword are rare. It reminds me of the western movie where the cowboy spins the gun on his finger before holstering it. Basically an invitation to shoot yourself or someone else accidentally. Given the reverence for the Japanese Sword in Japanese culture, seeing them twirled around usually strikes me as at best odd. That said, I've seen some more "swirly" movements before in koryu sword arts. But usually they're quite reserved in comparison to this. Then again, maybe it's just something I've not seen before and perfectly "legit".

FWIW

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Old 10-15-2014, 04:21 PM   #10
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Re: Youtube: Kakari Geiko with Empty Handed and Weapons Techniques

Demo should be the same as practice, other wise one or other is false. If you practice long enough you can easily see martial intent or lack of it.

Nagababa

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Old 10-15-2014, 05:15 PM   #11
James Sawers
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Re: Youtube: Kakari Geiko with Empty Handed and Weapons Techniques

Nice video.......Randori from suwari-waza was definitely different (for me, anyway)......The bokken flourish was a little strange, but perhaps it signified something??

I don't believe demos should be the same as practice, though I guess they could be, guess it's based on what you are demonstrating.

Thanks for sharing.....
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Old 10-15-2014, 07:38 PM   #12
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Re: Youtube: Kakari Geiko with Empty Handed and Weapons Techniques

Quote:
Szczepan Janczuk wrote: View Post
Demo should be the same as practice, other wise one or other is false. If you practice long enough you can easily see martial intent or lack of it.
Aikido was built on a platform of demonstration.
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Old 10-15-2014, 10:15 PM   #13
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Re: Youtube: Kakari Geiko with Empty Handed and Weapons Techniques

Quote:
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I will offer one criticism, and this is one of my pet peeves. There's a section where one of the participants is "twirling" his bokken around like a baton twirling routine. "Flourishes" with the Japanese sword are rare. It reminds me of the western movie where the cowboy spins the gun on his finger before holstering it. Basically an invitation to shoot yourself or someone else accidentally...

FWIW
Ha ha. I had exactly the same thought about the twirl ... but overall it was a very good effort anyway. If they train like that everyday - then all good. It looks like a demo - people sat watching etc. Of course, the danger is people will say - it's not real. Well, of course it's not real. It is what it is. A fixed demo. I have seen far, far worse. Some people are fast to criticise - so what is real then? I would say - real would look very messy, for starters. Like Judo, or Tomiki Aikido - lots of shuffling - halfway working stuff, and then presto, a technique appears out of nowhere. Who trains like that in Aikikai? And if you put a vid out, they'd likely say - that's not Aikido!

Last edited by Rupert Atkinson : 10-15-2014 at 10:23 PM.

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Old 10-16-2014, 02:17 AM   #14
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Re: Youtube: Kakari Geiko with Empty Handed and Weapons Techniques

There is a reverse grip chuburi that is not uncommon in sword arts, but it's generally about 1.5 rotations of the sword, Not the extra twirl. I won't comment on techniques, but I got the impression of an overall demeanor of arrogance and posturing throughout that out me off slightly. Very showy and deliberate movements that seemed done for purely aesthetic reasons. But I'm an efficiency nerd so I'm sure I'd be criticized as well. That's what's tough about commenting on YouTube videos. I will say his hamni handachi waza his back was nice and straight. that's always good to see.

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Old 10-16-2014, 06:13 AM   #15
Rupert Atkinson
 
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Re: Youtube: Kakari Geiko with Empty Handed and Weapons Techniques

That demo was just really meant for Aikido people- It was in a dojo. Problem is - it ends up on YouTube. Of course it will receive critique. Most of us on here have been waving swords and sticks about for a few years, right? Well, I am 100% sure I could easily chop any of you if I had a sword and you did not. 100% sure. You would not have a chance of taking it off me if I wanted to chop you. But I also know, that if the roles were reversed, I would not have the slightest chance of taking it off of you guys. Sword against sword - now that is a totally different story. weapons are fun - but it is not smart to put out vids that are so beyond reality. In Aikido the sword is a tool to aid Aikido learning. That is what it should be used for. In the vid above - the training is good Aikido training. But ordinary people - and some Aikidoka - will think it is 'supposed to be' real.

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Old 10-16-2014, 09:12 AM   #16
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Re: Youtube: Kakari Geiko with Empty Handed and Weapons Techniques

Quote:
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Ha ha. I had exactly the same thought about the twirl ... but overall it was a very good effort anyway. If they train like that everyday - then all good. It looks like a demo - people sat watching etc. Of course, the danger is people will say - it's not real. Well, of course it's not real. It is what it is. A fixed demo. I have seen far, far worse. Some people are fast to criticise - so what is real then? I would say - real would look very messy, for starters. Like Judo, or Tomiki Aikido - lots of shuffling - halfway working stuff, and then presto, a technique appears out of nowhere. Who trains like that in Aikikai? And if you put a vid out, they'd likely say - that's not Aikido!
I didn't say anything about 喪eal' -- that's you own addition. Read carefully what I wrote. You misunderstood my comment. OP asked about opinions so I gave mine. Writing things like " oh my god it very good" gives him nothing to improve. I clearly identified a technical gap in his training, not it is up to him to close it. Or not.

Nagababa

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Old 10-16-2014, 09:14 AM   #17
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Re: Youtube: Kakari Geiko with Empty Handed and Weapons Techniques

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Aikido was built on a platform of demonstration.
Could you elaborate?

Nagababa

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Old 10-16-2014, 09:37 AM   #18
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Re: Youtube: Kakari Geiko with Empty Handed and Weapons Techniques

The sword cut-rolling thing I've seen before. I can't remember the group, but I think I even saw it here. the tittle says Kakari Geiko and that sword thing is some kind of ukemi drill, or at least it's supposed to be I believe.

Video looked like a demo teat. Some groups have students preform a small demo for 4, 5, and or 6th Dan tests vice an actual exam with a specific syllabus.

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Old 10-16-2014, 09:48 AM   #19
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Re: Youtube: Kakari Geiko with Empty Handed and Weapons Techniques

Quote:
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Some of the releases in this video look like you're dismissing a dirty uke and casting him like a worthless minion back to the squalor from whence he came.
i thought aikido folks, in general, are minions of hell in disguise.

"budo is putting on cold, wet, sweat stained gi with a smile and a snarl" - your truly
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Old 10-16-2014, 10:29 AM   #20
Keith Larman
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Re: Youtube: Kakari Geiko with Empty Handed and Weapons Techniques

Quote:
Adam Huss wrote: View Post
There is a reverse grip chuburi that is not uncommon in sword arts, but it's generally about 1.5 rotations of the sword, Not the extra twirl. I won't comment on techniques, but I got the impression of an overall demeanor of arrogance and posturing throughout that out me off slightly. Very showy and deliberate movements that seemed done for purely aesthetic reasons. But I'm an efficiency nerd so I'm sure I'd be criticized as well. That's what's tough about commenting on YouTube videos. I will say his hamni handachi waza his back was nice and straight. that's always good to see.
Yup... On all points. Just a little uncomfortable for me, a sort of "Aaaah, a little too much here and there..." But... Some good posture and movement and interesting to watch.

On all the other stuff, I'm not smart enough to know the larger context and the training/performance goals of the individuals shown or the version of the art on display. Cheap seats are always comfy...


Quick edit: I've seen (and done) the reverse grip chiburi myself many a times. It's the extra twirl that bugs me. Superfluous movement and sword usually aren't in the same sentence. Or it might just be the voice in my head that is constantly repeating "Keep the sharp pointy end between you and the other guy. If you're done, clean the blade and put it away. If you're not done, don't flip it around." FWIW

But all that said... Things to see and learn in the video. And critiques as offered may be spot on, but also might be missing the larger context as we don't know all the training they might do. Shrug. One video of one day doing one thing. Maybe all the rest of their time they're naked, oiled up, hands wrapped in tape dipped in broken glass and fighting death matches. Shrug... Or they could be dancing with the infamous ribbon routine...

Last edited by Keith Larman : 10-16-2014 at 10:35 AM. Reason: Clarifying something

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Old 10-16-2014, 10:46 AM   #21
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Re: Youtube: Kakari Geiko with Empty Handed and Weapons Techniques

Quote:
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Could you elaborate?
A guy is in front of the class doing a demo, everybody pairs off and imitates.
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Old 10-16-2014, 10:56 AM   #22
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Re: Youtube: Kakari Geiko with Empty Handed and Weapons Techniques

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A guy is in front of the class doing a demo, everybody pairs off and imitates.
That is exactly my point -- this 租emo' part should be the same when teaching (everybody pairs off and imitates) or when not teaching (everybody watch only without intent of actually practice).

Nagababa

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Old 10-16-2014, 11:10 AM   #23
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Re: Youtube: Kakari Geiko with Empty Handed and Weapons Techniques

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That is exactly my point -- this 租emo' part should be the same when teaching (everybody pairs off and imitates) or when not teaching (everybody watch only without intent of actually practice).
Why though? If you taught every weeknight, and you asked for your ukes to come at you hard and real, you'd get a couple of moments of just pure, magic-looking stuff every month. And everyone would go "wow, THAT was it right there. That was the thing we are all here working hard, trying to achieve."

So then for whatever reason, you find yourself in a room with some mats in it, and they've trotted some type of academic or organizational dignitary big-wigs and sat them down in folding chairs, and your job and the job of your ukes is to show them what those magical moments look like. So while I think full-on choreography is pretty cheesy even in this type of environment, it hardly seems appropriate to have your ukes come at you and try to knock you down or out or otherwise make you look BAD. I am just saying, different rules apply. It seems straightforward to me.
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Old 10-16-2014, 11:53 AM   #24
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Re: Youtube: Kakari Geiko with Empty Handed and Weapons Techniques

Quote:
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Why though? If you taught every weeknight, and you asked for your ukes to come at you hard and real, you'd get a couple of moments of just pure, magic-looking stuff every month. And everyone would go "wow, THAT was it right there. That was the thing we are all here working hard, trying to achieve."

So then for whatever reason, you find yourself in a room with some mats in it, and they've trotted some type of academic or organizational dignitary big-wigs and sat them down in folding chairs, and your job and the job of your ukes is to show them what those magical moments look like. So while I think full-on choreography is pretty cheesy even in this type of environment, it hardly seems appropriate to have your ukes come at you and try to knock you down or out or otherwise make you look BAD. I am just saying, different rules apply. It seems straightforward to me.
My understanding is different. What may me makes look bad is a choreography. It is cheating -- it is not like we practice in the dojo. If somebody ask me to demo what is my understanding of aikido I'd present normal dojo behavior, which is a true expression of understanding of aikido at my present level. I can do what I can do. Otherwise I should change the way I practice at the dojo.
It is similar when you ask someone what he would change in his life knowing he has a year to live. Truly happy person will change nothing.

Choreography came to place when some not well trained person wanted to appear as good as O sensei himself and asked his uke to help creating illusion of magic.

Nagababa

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Old 10-16-2014, 04:57 PM   #25
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Re: Youtube: Kakari Geiko with Empty Handed and Weapons Techniques

Quote:
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My understanding is different. What may me makes look bad is a choreography. It is cheating -- it is not like we practice in the dojo. If somebody ask me to demo what is my understanding of aikido I'd present normal dojo behavior, which is a true expression of understanding of aikido at my present level. I can do what I can do. Otherwise I should change the way I practice at the dojo.
It is similar when you ask someone what he would change in his life knowing he has a year to live. Truly happy person will change nothing.

Choreography came to place when some not well trained person wanted to appear as good as O sensei himself and asked his uke to help creating illusion of magic.
Excellent.

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