Welcome to AikiWeb Aikido Information
AikiWeb: The Source for Aikido Information
AikiWeb's principal purpose is to serve the Internet community as a repository and dissemination point for aikido information.

Sections
home
aikido articles
columns

Discussions
forums
aikiblogs

Databases
dojo search
seminars
image gallery
supplies
links directory

Reviews
book reviews
video reviews
dvd reviews
equip. reviews

News
submit
archive

Miscellaneous
newsletter
rss feeds
polls
about

Follow us on



Home > AikiWeb Aikido Forums
Go Back   AikiWeb Aikido Forums > Anonymous

Hello and thank you for visiting AikiWeb, the world's most active online Aikido community! This site is home to over 22,000 aikido practitioners from around the world and covers a wide range of aikido topics including techniques, philosophy, history, humor, beginner issues, the marketplace, and more.

If you wish to join in the discussions or use the other advanced features available, you will need to register first. Registration is absolutely free and takes only a few minutes to complete so sign up today!

Closed Thread
 
Thread Tools
Old 10-11-2014, 01:05 AM   #26
"strange_days"
IP Hash: 37915902
Anonymous User
Re: People who are never uke

I already replied to this, but it was flagged for approval for some reason, and is residing in purgatory for an indefinite period of time.
 
Old 10-11-2014, 01:35 AM   #27
"strange_days"
IP Hash: 37915902
Anonymous User
Re: People who are never uke

Ah well, I'm going to try again, without using any "trigger words". Last time the submission took over a week to approve.

Suffice to say, you're equating two very different behaviors, and ascribing to yourself abilities which are superhuman in nature. For what purpose, I do not know.

Ukes can resist plenty within the kata, and perhaps even counter - when they're still ukes - they are being honest and imitate the lack of knowledge of real attacker as to what's coming next. This is part of good, useful training, as the multitude of kata are fragments of a larger, slowly accumulating skill of being dynamically fluid and reactive. There's a method to all this, and our nage-uke roles are part of the method.

However, when the uke drops his role, and you're still in training mode, encased within one specific kata, then you're dealing with an opponent using a lot more of his tools than you are.

As George Ledyard Sensei said at some point, he can do a yokomen nobody can do iriminage on. It's a common sense statement, easily provable by any intermediate practitioner or even a beginner. The training is the training, it has a specific protocol, and it can be countered easily.

If you are practicing Judo randori and your opponent knows with 100% certainty which technique you're attempting to pull off, over and over, you will never pull it off. Instead, they will use that advance knowledge to easily cancel what you do, and use your predictability against you.

If you were doing boxing sparring and your opponent knew that you're only going to be using the right cross, you would not have any success, either.

Go and try this if you don't believe me.

So when the uke drops out of the nage-uke framework and becomes an actively resisting/negating/canceling/reversing opponent, and you're not allowed to use all of your tools (because you're still in training mode), you will never succeed.

The only scenario where this cold, hard reality can be bent, is inside the dojo training matrix. You are lucky to have consistently good ukes. But do not mistake their resistance for resistance of someone who has no interest in being part of nage-uke framework.
 
Old 10-11-2014, 03:46 PM   #28
"strange_days"
IP Hash: 37915902
Anonymous User
Re: People who are never uke

Ok, now my earlier reply was retroactively inserted before your reply to Katherine by Forum Powers. Since my later reply is just a distilled version of that reply, please ignore the earlier version.
 
Old 10-11-2014, 07:54 PM   #29
Dan Richards
Dojo: Latham Eclectic
Location: NY
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 452
United_States
Offline
Re: People who are never uke

Quote:
Anonymous User wrote: View Post
Since submitting that first post (it took over a week to get approved), I stopped going to classes contaminated with these people, and swapped those classes for a different dojo.
Good for you. That's what I was going to suggest until I saw you'd already done it.

People who regularly injure others, combined with a Sensei who doesn't seem to have a handle on the situation, is not a good thing. Just walk away.

Enjoy your new training digs.
 
Old 10-14-2014, 10:29 AM   #30
Carsten Möllering
 
Carsten Möllering's Avatar
Dojo: Hildesheimer Aikido Verein
Location: Hildesheim
Join Date: Sep 2008
Posts: 912
Germany
Offline
Re: People who are never uke

Quote:
Anonymous User wrote: View Post
... you're ... and ascribing to yourself abilities which are superhuman in nature. ...
No, not at all. I think it is simply that we "construct" waza in different ways.

Thank you for posting the video of Stan. Stan says: "Don't lift up. Because if he lifts up, it's no longer tai no henko." But this is exactly what advanced students do in our way of practice: Uke might try to push up, pull down, push forth, pull back, push to nage, pull away from tori ... and some other things. And we do it on purpose.
At the same time tori is trying to do just the prescribed form of tai no henka. He neutralizes uke's attempt to counter not by changing the outer form of his movement (= "it's no longer tai no henko"; Inhis video Stan is changing to naname kokyu nage.), but tori adapts only by changing inside, moving inside. You will see nearly no difference on the outside. The form is still tai no henko.

Our way of constructing technique does neither build on being ahaed of uke in which sense ever. Nor on surprising uke in wich way ever. So uke does not have to imitate whatever.
On the contrary, when constructing the waza by establishing a contact body to body (not center to center) you have to learn to wait for uke, for being able to realize his structure and his movement.
In our training we work on how to create this contact from body to body, which is called atari. We work on how to use atari to feel uke and to affect uke's structure. We work on how to maintain atari even if uke want's to let go and to break up the connection.

I think kata is just meant to teach certain ways to establish and to apply atari. Or in other words when you are able to build aiki within your body, kata shows certain ways to apply your aiki to an attacker.

Quote:
Go and try this if you don't believe me.
I've changed my way of practice about seven or eight year ago because I was dissatisfied with a way of practice in which tori was dependent of uke and his actions. This was simply not my understanding of what aikidō should be. So I was looking for a way to learn how to become independent of that pattern and found teachers who show that way. It's different. And it's quite interesting!

----

@ Katherine:

I understand you are practicing with Dan? Actually I'm talking about integrating his teachings about aiki with the kihon no kata of Endō Seishiro and his teaching of atari and musubi. It really fits!
Which is clearly not the case with a lot of other forms of kihon waza I know.
 
Old 10-14-2014, 03:33 PM   #31
"strange_days"
IP Hash: 37915902
Anonymous User
Re: People who are never uke

Thanks for explaining your method.

My problem is not with your specific uke-nage protocol, but with you equating them with the ukes I described. If you lived closer geographically I'd gladly demonstrate to you what happens when you're dealing with a so-called "uke" whose participation is not constructive in any way, and who has the freedom to fully resist and counter while you are limited to one technique they know it coming. No matter how adaptive that single technique is, at some point you either have to admit you had to make it into a different technique to make it work, or give up on attempting the impossible.

Get out of dojo protocol, try this on a Judoka, then you'll see. Hell, chances are it will work with an untrained person. Demonstrate it to them without resistance, then ask them to get out of it by any means necessary next time you apply it. Shomen uchi irimi nage, for example. Just remember, when you are forced to change into elbow control, or ikkyo, or back control, or headlock, or a choke, it no longer reasonably resembles Aikido's standard kata of irimi nage.

Good luck.
 
Old 10-14-2014, 05:28 PM   #32
kewms
Join Date: Aug 2002
Posts: 1,316
Offline
Re: People who are never uke

Quote:
Carsten Möllering wrote: View Post
@ Katherine:

I understand you are practicing with Dan? Actually I'm talking about integrating his teachings about aiki with the kihon no kata of Endō Seishiro and his teaching of atari and musubi. It really fits!
Which is clearly not the case with a lot of other forms of kihon waza I know.
Dan visits our dojo regularly, and I have attended some of his classes. Some other members of the dojo are devoting much more effort to that work than I am, so I hesitate to claim to be "practicing with" Dan. OTOH, his ideas are very much "in the air" around here.

Katherine
 
Old 10-15-2014, 04:13 AM   #33
Carsten Möllering
 
Carsten Möllering's Avatar
Dojo: Hildesheimer Aikido Verein
Location: Hildesheim
Join Date: Sep 2008
Posts: 912
Germany
Offline
Re: People who are never uke

Quote:
Anonymous User wrote: View Post
If you lived closer geographically I'd gladly demonstrate to you what happens when ...
I don't think that's necessary. Actually I have encountered quite some of such uke over the years. And I have indeed practiced with judōka ( ... and not only with judōka ...) the way you suggested.

But yes, I think you are right: It would be much more meaningfull - maybe meaningfull at all - to meet and to show and feel each other. Talking respectively writing just leaves to much room for misunderstanding.
 
Old 10-15-2014, 04:38 AM   #34
"same problem"
IP Hash: 903b0f64
Anonymous User
Re: People who are never uke

Hello,

I saw this post some days ago and it hit a nerve. I think I suffer from the same problem in my dojo, and I also don't know what to do. Our sensei is very observant, and from time to time he "catches" the sempai in question when he is simply obstructing techniques and then lecturing. But it does not change very much. When unobserved, the sempai still behaves as he wants. Either he blocks, which he can do easily, thanks to greater skill, greater force and more weight, or he lets himself throw so easily that this becomes again an insult - "see, I gratify you by letting you do!". The latter happens generally when kohei tries to follow his instructions after having been blocked, so it's a sort of demonstration: "see, if you do as I said, it works!", whereas in reality he blocked before and now is over-collusive.

The guy has a way to feel up women (for example, when sending them rolling for kaiten nage, just a swift, nearly imperceptible and certainly invisible hand movement up the legs), and I had twice the impression that he put my health in jeopardy consciously, forcing upon me techniques my body was not ready to take after recovery from illness/ surgery. I asked before training to be lenient because of the recent intervention, but the result was exactly the opposite. No harm done in the end, but I felt somehow abused.

Another problem is the guy is a nice guy. He is really friendly, smiling, not at all aggressive on the surface, so I have great difficulties to discern if his behaviour is conscious or maybe he is not at all aware of the damage he inflicts. Or maybe I exaggerate and the sempai has the best intentions of the world; the "feeling up" issue was just misinterpreted, as it was the blocking, and he simply didn't get the thing with the illness/ surgery?

Anyway, I train with that sempai willingly only when I want to challenge a technique. Like Sinatra's song - "if I can do it there, I can do it ANYWHERE!". Most time it doesn't work, but when it does, it is deeply satisfactory.

Probably there is simply a proportion of power-abusing sempai in the aikido world, and the rest of students has to learn how to deal with them. It's a part of the art.

Best wishes to all of you.
 
Old 10-15-2014, 06:13 AM   #35
"strange_days"
IP Hash: 37915902
Anonymous User
Re: People who are never uke

@"same problem":

My former Sensei would "catch" the said sempai as well, but its been having the same effect as trying to stop a cat from pooping outside the litterbox by talking to it.

After the recent changing of dojos, I learned that there IS such a thing as no-nonsense instructors, who simply do not tolerate that kind of behavior AT ALL. Moreso, they will teach a tangible, physical lesson to such a uke, to demonstrate exactly why this behavior is stupid. This is more likely to happen in a more physical dojo, where nonsense is weeded out.

So, consider changing dojos. Because even if your problem-sempai goes away, the dojo clearly allows for existence of such a practitioner, so eventually there will be another. Perhaps it's time to find a dojo where instructors actually LOOK OUT for their students.

A novel concept, isn't it? Well, it certainly was to me, until recently.
 
Old 10-15-2014, 07:33 AM   #36
lbb
Location: Massachusetts
Join Date: Jun 2006
Posts: 3,058
United_States
Offline
Re: People who are never uke

Nice guys don't injure or cop feels from their practice partners. Not by any definition, not ever. Just sayin'.
 
Old 10-15-2014, 08:29 AM   #37
jurasketu
Dojo: Roswell Budokan
Location: Roswell GA
Join Date: Nov 2010
Posts: 104
United_States
Offline
Re: People who are never uke

I've never understood the frozen in place, sack of cement, completely rooted stone statue concept. That is beyond silly. There is no circumstance I can imagine where that makes martial sense. It can occur when trying to arrest an uncooperative person or move an mental patient but that's not a martial situation that is simply juvenile behavior.

An opponent that becomes rooted to the spot is distinctly vulnerable to getting a knee destroyed by a simple stomp/kick. In fact, taking uke's balance and briefly pinning them on the forward foot yields an opportunity for a knee strike. If an uke roots inappropriately on me, I usually just demonstrate that I can strongly kick the knee and they get the idea. Sometimes it is appropriate to root to teach a particular concept but that should be very rare and used sparingly.

It seems to me that the main purpose of Aikido ukemi is to teach the concept of staying in motion and flowing to a place where the uke is safe and then can escape or counterattack.

And "strange_days" - I think you did exactly the right thing. Voting with your feet is one of the best ways to make your life better. That applies to family, work and play.

All paths lead to death. I strongly recommend taking one of the scenic routes.
AWA - Nidan - Started Aikido training in 2008
 
Old 10-16-2014, 03:48 PM   #38
"augustine"
IP Hash: bc74c043
Anonymous User
Re: People who are never uke

As tori we often have to practice with jerks. However as uke, NEVER EVER practice with someone who may cause you injury. Simply refuse.

Talk with your Sensei. Your safety should be her/his primary concern. If it isn't, find another place to train.

I do not advocate wimpy training, one should practice in a vigorous effective manner, as safely as possible.

Best regards,

Augustine
 
Old 10-17-2014, 02:48 AM   #39
Carsten Möllering
 
Carsten Möllering's Avatar
Dojo: Hildesheimer Aikido Verein
Location: Hildesheim
Join Date: Sep 2008
Posts: 912
Germany
Offline
Re: People who are never uke

Quote:
Robin Johnson wrote: View Post
I've never understood the frozen in place, sack of cement, completely rooted stone statue concept. ...
You are not alone ... :
"I don't want to deal with people who are like statues. ..."

Anyway, we have such uke. We have to deal with them in one way or another. At least as long as they don't try to injure their partner we have to find a way, our own way to practice with them.

Explaining and showing them the sillyness of their behaviour for sure is one way to deal with such uke. I agree with that idea and I used to practice like that for years.
On the other hand, it was just Endō sensei's way of practice, that made me more and more curious about how to deal with people who are "not alive", who don't behave in a way that seems to make sense, or, even worse, who are deeply rooted, veeery heavy and full of energy and very flexible and alive - but who know to use all that for themselves and how to not give me anything at all to work with ...

For sure the " frozen in place, sack of cement, completely rooted stone statue concept" does not make martial sense. And for sure it does not help uke to learn something about his body, about movement and other important things. And dead sure it is not very much fun to work with such a person.
But it is simply a technical challenge to move such a frozen cement statue.
 
Old 10-17-2014, 04:23 AM   #40
"strange_days"
IP Hash: 37915902
Anonymous User
Re: People who are never uke

Quote:
Carsten Möllering wrote: View Post
You are not alone ... :
"I don't want to deal with people who are like statues. ..."

Anyway, we have such uke. We have to deal with them in one way or another. At least as long as they don't try to injure their partner we have to find a way, our own way to practice with them.

Explaining and showing them the sillyness of their behaviour for sure is one way to deal with such uke. I agree with that idea and I used to practice like that for years.
On the other hand, it was just Endō sensei's way of practice, that made me more and more curious about how to deal with people who are "not alive", who don't behave in a way that seems to make sense, or, even worse, who are deeply rooted, veeery heavy and full of energy and very flexible and alive - but who know to use all that for themselves and how to not give me anything at all to work with ...

For sure the " frozen in place, sack of cement, completely rooted stone statue concept" does not make martial sense. And for sure it does not help uke to learn something about his body, about movement and other important things. And dead sure it is not very much fun to work with such a person.
But it is simply a technical challenge to move such a frozen cement statue.
At no point the did uke's behavior in Endo Sensei's video even remotely resemble the kind of ukemi I described. Nor did the uke know exactly what was going to happen next. And yet Endo Sensei was still forced to change technique to move this rather cooperative uke.

If this is what you think resistance looks like, it explains all your claims. And they're, as always, easily disprovable in practice - not just of Aikido, but of most other martial arts.
 
Old 10-18-2014, 06:23 PM   #41
"strange_days"
IP Hash: 37915902
Anonymous User
Re: People who are never uke

Welp. my post is taking days to get approved again, so here we go again.

_Throughout_ the above video, the uke is highly cooperative, even when he's supposedly "resisting". And even with this cooperation, the uke isn't told in advance what's gonna happen, and the instructor does what's suitable for the current energy, rather than trying to pull off a specific technique.

So, if you were using the video to make some kind of point, Carsten, it contradicts every claim you've been making.

Just to recap, you claimed that you can execute a technique on a fully resisting uke who knows what's coming and actively tries to cancel it, without hitting them or changing into another technique, or having the advantage of initiative for that matter.

This continues to go against everything known to every martial art practitioner, and is easily disprovable, simply because in this scenario, all other factors being equal, the uke is free to do a lot more than the nage.
 
Old 10-19-2014, 01:36 PM   #42
Carsten Möllering
 
Carsten Möllering's Avatar
Dojo: Hildesheimer Aikido Verein
Location: Hildesheim
Join Date: Sep 2008
Posts: 912
Germany
Offline
Re: People who are never uke

I didn't mean to "make some kind of point". It was just, that Robin Johnson's statement: "I've never understood the frozen in place, sack of cement, completely rooted stone statue concept. ..." reminded me of that video of Endō sensei. Simply that.

Actually it's not my intention to prove whatever. As I said before I just wanted to share my experience when I read a sentence of Katherin Derbyshire.

Quote:
Anonymous User wrote: View Post
This continues to go against everything known to every martial art practitioner, and is easily disprovable, ...
Your opinion obviously is very solid, so I will not argue against it. I'm not interested in proving anything or in convincing you of something.

Last edited by Carsten Möllering : 10-19-2014 at 01:48 PM.
 
Old 10-19-2014, 03:27 PM   #43
jurasketu
Dojo: Roswell Budokan
Location: Roswell GA
Join Date: Nov 2010
Posts: 104
United_States
Offline
Re: People who are never uke

@Carsten - Isn't Endo awesome?. There is a technical challenge to moving statues. I actually have some skill at moving inanimate objects. It is even interesting occasionally. It can even teach you a number of practical mental and physical skills. But as a regular diet - I think it is pretty thin gruel.

All paths lead to death. I strongly recommend taking one of the scenic routes.
AWA - Nidan - Started Aikido training in 2008
 
Old 10-19-2014, 04:33 PM   #44
jurasketu
Dojo: Roswell Budokan
Location: Roswell GA
Join Date: Nov 2010
Posts: 104
United_States
Offline
Re: People who are never uke

@Carsten... I wasn't trying to be critical of what you said. And Endo's video was exactly on point. I was just reiterating my point that it is okay occasionally - bad routinely.

All paths lead to death. I strongly recommend taking one of the scenic routes.
AWA - Nidan - Started Aikido training in 2008
 
Old 10-19-2014, 06:39 PM   #45
"strange_days"
IP Hash: 37915902
Anonymous User
Re: People who are never uke

Quote:
Carsten Möllering wrote: View Post
Actually it's not my intention to prove whatever. As I said before I just wanted to share my experience when I read a sentence of Katherin Derbyshire.
Her sentence is aligned with my observations, which are also aligned with the physical reality outside your dojo's training matrix. This is why I am present in this argument.

Quote:
Your opinion obviously is very solid, so I will not argue against it. I'm not interested in proving anything or in convincing you of something.
And yet you are still here trying to argue your side by labeling fact an "opinion".

You've made some incredible claims in this thread:

Quote:
I'm indeed talking about performing a certain, given waza that was demonstrated by the teacher with resisting uke, "them knowing what's coming, and knowing they won't get hit". And to do that in a slow and relaxed way.

And tori can learn to perform this given technique of this wicked minded blockages and boycotts. - Without using henka waza, without seeking refuge in atemi, wihtout covering inability by increasing speed.

[...] there also is no moment in our slow motion practice, where we simulate a situation, but it is always "real". The technique is meant to really work in slow motion.
There's no shred of evidence that anyone can do this against a uke who is actively canceling your movement with foreknowledge of what's coming, and who are free from nage's self-imposed restrictions of specific kata and specific speed.

I've not seen a single Shihan even attempt to do this. They either resort to atemi or alter movement, or both.

So until you present such evidence, you should perhaps relent on defending your fantasy claims? Passive-aggressively or otherwise.

Thanks.
 
Old 10-19-2014, 06:53 PM   #46
lbb
Location: Massachusetts
Join Date: Jun 2006
Posts: 3,058
United_States
Offline
Re: People who are never uke

Well, that got nasty.
 
Old 10-19-2014, 07:07 PM   #47
"strange_days"
IP Hash: 37915902
Anonymous User
Re: People who are never uke

I was trying not to go there, I really did. Note that there's no profanity in my reply. But this person is lying. If his claims were true, he and his fellow students could go and win every single MMA tournament - in what would surely become the most spectacular television event of the century.
 
Old 10-19-2014, 07:20 PM   #48
akiy
 
akiy's Avatar
Join Date: Jun 2000
Posts: 5,942
Offline
Re: People who are never uke

The tone in this thread has devolved to personal attacks and other behavior I do not want to see here on AikiWeb.

Thread closed.

-- Jun

Please help support AikiWeb -- become an AikiWeb Contributing Member!
 

Please visit our sponsor:

AikiWeb Sponsored Links - Place your Aikido link here for only $10!



Closed Thread


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may post new threads
You may post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is Off
HTML code is Off

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
To What Extent is Martial Effectiveness Necessary... Gorgeous George General 143 10-22-2010 03:54 AM
Getting people to try Aikido Brian Gillaspie General 39 08-20-2010 03:40 PM
Special people and Aikido Marie Noelle Fequiere General 12 08-04-2008 03:44 PM
Exceptional People mriehle Training 3 03-02-2007 08:45 PM
Atemi DavidM General 61 06-24-2002 11:04 AM


All times are GMT -6. The time now is 02:02 PM.



vBulletin Copyright © 2000-2016 Jelsoft Enterprises Limited
----------
Copyright 1997-2016 AikiWeb and its Authors, All Rights Reserved.
----------
For questions and comments about this website:
Send E-mail
plainlaid-picaresque outchasing-protistan explicantia-altarage seaford-stellionate