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Old 11-14-2002, 12:23 PM   #26
DrGazebo
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Snip

Then they smiled to one another and shuffled off of the tatami.My friend said he smiled, and left the dojo.

And then they all probably went for noodles and saki and stayed up until 3:00 AM talking about karate-do, who is training where, how the old days were, improvements on technique, where the dojo is headed, and the history of the art.

Talking is very good, but a time and a place.
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Old 11-14-2002, 01:14 PM   #27
bcole23
Dojo: Eagle Rock Aikido, Ammon, ID
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As an example of where I think explanation and discussion of technique or principles fit into training I offer an experience I had.

One day while training in a certain technique that we'd trained for years (don't we all), sensei explained it the same way as he had many many times before. However, because I'd gone through hours upon hours of this technique, I was finally able to really understand what he was saying. A light went on as we always say. I imagine that the same thing he always says will be even more understood by me in the future.

My point is that talking only works if there's lots and lots of training going on. A person has to be ready for understanding and the only way to do that is by training hard consistently for life. So I say, train hard and try to keep talking down as much as possible.

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Old 11-14-2002, 01:33 PM   #28
giriasis
Dojo: Sand Drift Aikikai, Cocoa Florida
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When people say they allow talking on the mat they are not saying they allow chattering or chit chat on the mat. Those are two different things in my book. Talking is a part of communication, and sometimes when a partner is going too fast or too rough something needs to be said or there will be injury. I have no clue how to convey this "non-verbally". If someone is getting frustrated with a technique because thier uke is "teaching through ukemi" but does not believe in talking, if the uke who is "teaching through ukemi" knows what the other is doing wrong, they should speak up. The nage in this situation should also feel free to say "what do I need to do?", they shouldn't feel like they have no right to speak up because they are talking to a senior student. Also, what if the senior student doesn't realize that the junior is having a problem? A restriction to no talking at all means the senior keeps doing the same old thing and the junior just gets frustrated. Neither party learns anything. The senior loses the opportunity to teach and enhance their understanding of aikido, and the junior loses the opportunity to learn to do that technique on that particular person.

I'm sorry but I think learning by taking ukemi and by teaching through ukemi takes established skills. Why spend one hour or a week trying to figure out the right angle on a partner when the partner can take one second and tell them where that angle is?

Sorry but I just don't get the "No talking at all rule". I can see the point of a silent class or two as a learning experience. I can see where some people over teach, but you can easily tell them "let me figure it out on my own." I can understand saying too much and being too helpful where it totally overwhelms a beginner. I can totally understand no chit-chat (i.e. non-relevant conversation). I totally understand not talking over sensei -- completely disrespectful.

I guess I don't see how all off aikido can be conveyed non-verbally. Not everyone is a kinesthetic learner, some need oral instructions as well.

Don't get me wrong. A lot of training goes at the dojo where I train. There is a lot of hard physical practice as well -- enough to force this person into getting herself in better shape to keep up. A lot of learning and understanding of aikido takes place. But sometimes, a beginner needs to be helped out or a more senior person needs to be told to ease off a bit. I do see though that once people reach a higher level less talking needs to happen, but talking, real verbal communication, still needs to be allowed to explain more complicated techniques and concepts.

But I agree you won't get "it" unless you practice it physically. It's not like we all stand around reading Aikido and the Dynamic Sphere to each other.

Anne Marie Giri
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Old 11-14-2002, 01:38 PM   #29
giriasis
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Sorry, that was really long and not edited really well... it was more of ramble. But my point is that sometimes verbal communication is necessary and I just don't understand absolutely barring it in class.

Anne Marie Giri
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Old 11-14-2002, 02:05 PM   #30
akiy
 
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As Anne Marie alludes to above, talking can clarify, but it can't replace physical training.

Some people whom I've encountered would rather train silently and work on the techniques themselves rather than receiving unwanted "clarifications." Very, very often, I'm one of those.

Of course communication is important in aikido, just as it is in any endeavor; if it weren't I doubt I would have created these Forums! But, I personally don't think it's paramount in one's growth in the art -- especially after a bit of time in the art.

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Old 11-14-2002, 02:21 PM   #31
Nacho_mx
Dojo: Federación Mexicana de Aikido
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In our school the rule of no talking (that includes other noises such as grunting or shouting) is about respect. Respect to O Sensei watching us from the kamiza, respect for the instructors and their teachings, respect to the discipline (this is budo, not aerobics), respect to our practice partners and to our visitors. If someone has a problem with the technique, the instructor will adress it, whether it´s a 3rd dan or a 5th kyu. However during a half hour break between evening classes there is a free practice session and people are allowed to practice whatever technique they want (strictly aikido of course) and talk and discuss about it, so we are not mute after all. If I visited a dojo where talking during class is allowed, I might say a few words, but probably I would be quiet. If someone visit us, regardless of style and affiliation, we expect him/her to practice by our rules. Finally I´ve been to Hombu Dojo and the I.A.F. congress (2000) and I don´t remember anybody talking...during class.
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Old 11-14-2002, 02:29 PM   #32
erikmenzel
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I personally think talking in class works as fertilizer for 5th-kuy-shihans.

Erik Jurrien Menzel
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Old 11-14-2002, 03:13 PM   #33
Alfonso
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Quote:
I guess I don't see how all off aikido can be conveyed non-verbally. Not everyone is a kinesthetic learner, some need oral instructions as well.
Yeah. That's a strength of Aikido, it's a kinesthetic, visual, and oral training method.

In that sense communication is enhanced by talking.

overdone, it's can get as boring as being forced to sit and watch without participating (feeling). Visual people get a lot of out of watching, but imagine if training would be 90% watching..

then you have these other completely no talking classes which are great for the "feelers", but leave the "audio" people out.

etc..

rabmle on..

Alfonso Adriasola
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Old 11-14-2002, 03:23 PM   #34
Erik
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Sometimes I talk while practicing and sometimes I don't. I've been known to carry on a conversation while being thrown and talk about anything while I'm at it. Other times I'd rather not say a word.

I've been struck neither by lightning nor enlightenment whichever way I went about it.
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Old 11-14-2002, 03:28 PM   #35
giriasis
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Well, a 5th kyu shihan is easily tempered by every higher ranking person he or she trains with. If the 5th kyu person is one of the higher ranks (i.e. you're a small school or just started the dojo) then I can see that as a problem.

All in all, I'd rather just train too. but sometimes even the unwanted comments help me out. They also tell me that someone knows, sees, or feels something that I don't understand.

Even if it is a 5th kyu shihan who is noticing that I really am not getting his balance. I let go of my need to just train, and figure out how to take his balance. Or just train a little harder so he can feel it more as I tend to go "too easy" with beginners. I may not have realized he can take more, and all of a sudden I have good training partner I can work with. Eventually we end up sharing what works best for one another and we just end up training.

But some one else on another thread mentioned talking on the mat is like--"okay, that doesn't work, do this, no not quite a little more, oh yeah, that's it." A 5th kyu shihan can be ignored while you just up the ante a little bit within thier level. An over exeberuant partner "teaching" can simply asked to "let me just figure it out."

Ignacio, what you describes makes sense, because you have time inbetween classes to discuss the techniques, and work out any problems.

Anne Marie Giri
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Old 11-14-2002, 05:10 PM   #36
bcole23
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Anne Marie Giri,

Your point is correct and totally justified as is most of the ones in this thread. I think that 99% of the people in the world of Aikido would agree that 0% talking is a bad thing. Constructive dialog between people is a standard way of learning and many many people need this.

I think we'd all agree that the verbal part of Aikido is much more important when starting out. However, I think that most of that should come from the sempai to the kohai as explanations go. As we progress through aikido, we learn how to learn by listening to our bodies, energies, and our ukes without so much dialog. Thus, the further you go, the less talking there is, though what is usually there is more profound.

Not talking about chit chat here btw.

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Old 11-14-2002, 07:04 PM   #37
giriasis
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Brandon, I think your right that the more advanced we get the less we need to talk. I'm starting to see this even at 3rd kyu, at least with the techniques I'm most familiar with.

Anne Marie Giri
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Old 11-14-2002, 07:44 PM   #38
opherdonchin
Dojo: Baltimore Aikido
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Quote:
I think that 99% of the people in the world of Aikido would agree that 0% talking is a bad thing.
I certainly can not agree with that statement. That is, I can't agree that this is what 99% of the people would say, nor is it something that I myself would say.

Yours in Aiki
Opher
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Old 11-15-2002, 01:43 PM   #39
aikigreg
Dojo: Mizu Aikido
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talking about training: good

asking sensei question: good

Candy: good

interrupting sensei: BAD

Fire: bad!

talking about non-aikido crap during training: offense punishable by all-day nikkyo "lesson"
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