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Old 09-10-2014, 01:30 PM   #76
kewms
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Re: Refining my view of aiki

Quote:
Jeremy Hulley wrote: View Post
Here's a couple of thoughts sparked by this thread.

Kisshomaru Ueshiba speaks pretty explicitly about blending with your opponent's ki in The Spirit of Aikido
Link? Quote of the relevant passage?

And are you referring to the English version or the Japanese version? As our own Chris Li has demonstrated, accuracy of translations has been a real problem in the English-language aikido literature.

Katherine
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Old 09-10-2014, 01:52 PM   #77
Jeremy Hulley
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Re: Refining my view of aiki

I'll see if I can track it down in the next day or two...English translation and I agree about mistranslation.

Jeremy Hulley
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Old 09-10-2014, 02:09 PM   #78
Cliff Judge
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Re: Refining my view of aiki

Quote:
Keith Larman wrote: View Post
I'm sure there are those who do, but most I've met and trained with have no such illusions or concerns. Really the realization for most is that what we're discovering is finally being able to actually do those things we've always tried to do, just do them a bit more easily, a bit more powerfully, a bit more repeatedly, and on command. And in my case realizing it's not about the timing or physics or sleight of hand aspects that most try, but through an actual skill and ability developed with hard work to make these things happen. So is it about "winning"? No. It's finding that sometimes you actually can do the stuff you were trying to do. And more completely and efficiently.
Alright, I will be content to know, anytime I see someone post about how they are afraid of the idea of connecting to their partner's center because they might be "owned" or that they are going to present a rubik's cube body to their partner while treating her to a fist full of unresistable force, that the philosophy of openness, non-resistance, and harmony that I have always loved about Aikido and that continues to draw in the new students who are most likely to stick around, is not in any way being threatened.
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Old 09-10-2014, 02:53 PM   #79
Erick Mead
 
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Re: Refining my view of aiki

Quote:
Katherine Derbyshire wrote: View Post
Here lies the paradox. In order to choose a non-violent, "harmonious" resolution to a conflict, you have to be able to handle serious attacks from extremely violent people who are intent on imposing their will on you.
As Tolstoy said, "You may not be interested in war; but war is interested in you."

Cordially,

Erick Mead
一隻狗可久里馬房但他也不是馬的.
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Old 09-10-2014, 03:16 PM   #80
mathewjgano
 
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Re: Refining my view of aiki

Quote:
Jeremy Hulley wrote: View Post
I'll see if I can track it down in the next day or two...English translation and I agree about mistranslation.
I'm rereading the passage on ki right now (thanks for the reminder! It's been about a decade since I last read it) and so far he's been talking about harmonizing the individual ki with the universal ki.

Pages 19-31 speak to "Harmonizing Ki" and finishes with a doka.

Quote:
Aiki is the power of harmony
Of all beings, all things working together.
Relentlessly train yourself-
Followers of the Way
On pages 24 and 25:
Quote:
Through budo I trained my body thoroughly and mastered its ultimate secrets, but I also realized an even greater truth. That is, when I grasped the real nature of the universe through budo, I saw clearly that human beings must unite mind and body and the ki that connects the two and then achieve harmony with the activity of all things in the universe.
By virtue of the subtle working of ki we harmonize mind and body and the relationship between the individual and the universe.
Quote:
The subtle working of ki is the maternal source that affects delicate changes in breath. It is also the source of martial art as love. When one unifies mind and body by virtue of ki and manifests ai-ki [harmony of ki], delicate changes in breath-power occur spontaneously and waza [proper technique] flows freely. The change in breath, connected with the ki of the universe, interacts and interpenetrates with all of life. At the same time the delicate breath-power enters into all corners of one's body. Entering deeply, it fills one with vitality, resulting naturally in variegated, dynamic, spontaneous movements. In this way the whole body, including the internal organs, becomes united in heat, light and power. Having accomplished unification of mind and body and being in oneness with the universe, the body moves at will offering no resistance to one's intentions.
Quote:
The delicate changes in breath cause subtle movements of ki in the void. Sometimes movements are fierce and potent, at other times slow and stolid. By such changes one can discern the degree of concentration or unification of mind and body. When concentration permeates mind and body, breath-power becomes one with the universe, gently and naturally expanding to the utter limit, but at the same time the person becomes increasingly self-contained and autonomous.
Quote:
Ki, then, is twofold: the unity of individual-universe and the free, spontaneous expression of breath-power.
(English translation; 1st edition paperback)

Last edited by mathewjgano : 09-10-2014 at 03:21 PM.

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Old 09-10-2014, 05:35 PM   #81
Keith Larman
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Re: Refining my view of aiki

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Cliff Judge wrote: View Post
Alright, I will be content to know, anytime I see someone post about how they are afraid of the idea of connecting to their partner's center because they might be "owned" or that they are going to present a rubik's cube body to their partner while treating her to a fist full of unresistable force, that the philosophy of openness, non-resistance, and harmony that I have always loved about Aikido and that continues to draw in the new students who are most likely to stick around, is not in any way being threatened.
Seriously, that's how you read those things? Never mind then. We ain't getting anywhere here...

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Old 09-10-2014, 06:06 PM   #82
Robert Cowham
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Re: Refining my view of aiki

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Jon Reading wrote: View Post
Correct. We have kata. Kata is intended to provide guidance for learning technique and defining roles. But kata does not address the degradation of uke and nage into winners and losers as we see it in the dojo. You're still not getting away from role play. This is where the koryu can preserve the integrity of the training while aikido starts to give out the white hats to nage and the black hats to uke...
This is interesting to me as regards kenjutsu training (Kashima no Tachi with Inaba sensei) - fairly traditional (koryu) stuff as regards uke's role as the senior is to pressurise shite (nage) in such a way as to elicit a particular response (during a kata).

As nage, I have many times had the experience of being able to respond in a way that I couldn't subsequently repeat - and that was due to the uke at the time giving me the appropriate pressure (or placing me in a situation) which forced me to respond in a particular way.

As a teacher (uke), I have had to learn how to transmit this experience to my students. And part of that is how to continue to advance my own training at the same time as I am teaching others - that is a "not so obvious" aspect that I am very much still working on...
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Old 09-10-2014, 08:06 PM   #83
phitruong
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Re: Refining my view of aiki

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Erick Mead wrote: View Post
I would refer to that as two different things: "structural action/response" for something requiring a change in arrangement in response to load, or "structural form" which is a principle where shape carries the load more than primary stresses in the material.
isn't a pre-stressed structure both "structural action/response" and "structural form"?

"budo is putting on cold, wet, sweat stained gi with a smile and a snarl" - your truly
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Old 09-11-2014, 02:31 AM   #84
Carsten Möllering
 
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Re: Refining my view of aiki

--- Off Topic ---

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Cliff Judge wrote: View Post
...The reason why Aikido spread around the world in the first place was because it had this really intriguing alternative martial philosophy about not fighting, not opposing, looking at conflict in terms other than win/lose. ...
I'm not sure whether this assumption can be approved by historical facts.

I am not so familiar with the history of aikidō in the USA.
But at least the history here in Europe shows that "being able to win" was crucial at the different starting points of the spreading of aikidō over here.

The people from the UK may speek for themselves. But I think it is obvious that aikidō had to prove itself - and did.

In France aikidō was practiced first by jūdōka. In particular it was shown during jūdō competitions. And jūdōka became interested because they were thrown against their will, without understanding why. So they wanted to learn that stuff.
My first about ten years or so I practiced "french" aikidō, stemming from this tradition. The philosphy was clearly there - but also there was the clear intention to "finalize" the opponent. This french aikidō was very, very martial. A lot of waza, epecially certain atemi with the intention to hurt the attacker.
It was only when Christian Tissier returned from Japan that he brought a seemingly "new" style of aikidō - he always claimed he wouldn't do anything "new". (In fact I think it wasn't new, it was only that he represented a new generation.)

In Germany aikidō first started because the authorities concerned with the penal institutions were looking for a system the prison officers could use to controll the prisoners in cases of conflict. (This happened about ten years before Asai sensei came here.) So in Germany aikidō was spread in police clubs at first.

The other way round in Eastern Europe ... so to say ... In Polland and Russia there was an emphasis on being able to defend oneself in the street. aikidō simply had to work. And it did. It was not spread because of it's philolosophy first of all, but because it proved itself to work als self defence.
Also aikidō often was pracitced in army clubs in Eastern Europe as a means of close combat. This phenomenon can also be found in Scandinavia.

So I think, "being able to win" was crucial in the spreading of this budō, at least in Europe.

Last edited by Carsten Möllering : 09-11-2014 at 02:39 AM.
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Old 09-11-2014, 06:35 AM   #85
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Re: Refining my view of aiki

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Robert Cowham wrote: View Post
This is interesting to me as regards kenjutsu training (Kashima no Tachi with Inaba sensei) - fairly traditional (koryu) stuff as regards uke's role as the senior is to pressurise shite (nage) in such a way as to elicit a particular response (during a kata).

As nage, I have many times had the experience of being able to respond in a way that I couldn't subsequently repeat - and that was due to the uke at the time giving me the appropriate pressure (or placing me in a situation) which forced me to respond in a particular way.

As a teacher (uke), I have had to learn how to transmit this experience to my students. And part of that is how to continue to advance my own training at the same time as I am teaching others - that is a "not so obvious" aspect that I am very much still working on...
Absolutely. Good uke waza can be critical in soliciting non-confrontational movement from nage and getting her to see a path that she might not otherwise see (or believe). Last night we had a surprise visit from Dan Messisco and it is nothing short of amazing how well he will take ukemi for you to solicit the right movement.

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Old 09-11-2014, 06:55 AM   #86
MRoh
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Re: Refining my view of aiki

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Carsten Möllering wrote: View Post
So I think, "being able to win" was crucial in the spreading of this budō, at least in Europe.
The Situation in Germany was completely different than in France, where competent Aikido teachers like Mochizuki and Abe began their work in the early fifties.

In Germany, there was no chance of "spreading" Aikido in the fifties.
When Hölzel, who was graded to 3. Dan in Judo in 1950, became the mandate to teach prison officers, he had not learned Aikido at all.
Besides that, prison officers are a limited category of people, so talking about spreading aikido does not appear appropriate.
A real chance that the number of people who had access to the new art could increase, came in 1965 with the person of K. Asai as a delegated Aikikai teacher.

Of course the reason why people were interested in Aikido was mainly because this new art promised to be a way that leads to the ability to defend against stronger opponents.
With Asai Sensei came a young teacher who did not have philosophy in his suitcase, but hard training for three years as a start.
He came back again when it became clear that the spreading of Aikido in Germany would come to an end if he stayed away.
There was another trend that was influenced from France, but later went in a direction, that had no focus on practical use and applications.

What was consistently stressed by Asai Sensei, was that the main purpose of Aikido is not winning,
"on the mat we don't fight". What had to be understood was, that it had been Ueshibas deep wish that this way of thinking in categories of winning and loosing needs to be overcome.
This did not mean to be a helpless victim. Permission to "finish" serious attackers outside was given explicitly.
People do not understand how to achieve any fighting skills that could help in a serious situation in the streets while training in a spirit of not fighting and non-resistance, but understanding the principle of O Senseis Aiki is impossible when thinking in such categories.
To destroy an attacker is easy if you want. If you are cold blooded, you can finish him with a single movement. But that was just for the street, to do this you don't need to incure this strenous effort of training. This was the crucial point, not winning.
Nevertheless, the willpower and adamantness Asai Sensei demonstrated when he was challenged by strong Judoka in the beginning, surely was one reason why more and more people joined his seminars and became members of the german Aikikai.
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Old 09-11-2014, 07:13 AM   #87
jonreading
 
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Re: Refining my view of aiki

Quote:
Cliff Judge wrote: View Post
Alright, I will be content to know, anytime I see someone post about how they are afraid of the idea of connecting to their partner's center because they might be "owned" or that they are going to present a rubik's cube body to their partner while treating her to a fist full of unresistable force, that the philosophy of openness, non-resistance, and harmony that I have always loved about Aikido and that continues to draw in the new students who are most likely to stick around, is not in any way being threatened.
To be clear, its not the fist of irresistible force that's the problem. It's the broken glass stuck to my knuckles with resin that's the problem... I know you are just funnin' with my comments, but I would clarify that my concern with connecting centers is not fear-based. It is a fact that a lesser center connected to a greater center will be overcome. Rather, it's actually courageous to grab someone who can trash you, trust they will not, and then participate in what comes next. Anyone who has worked with an uke who is personally timid can appreciate the courage that person needs to muster every time he grabs nage. What about when he gives not just his arm, but his center?

Aiki is not a threat to aikido. Granted, I could hear some PR-based arguments that to may indicate otherwise, but it's not. As far as I know, the IP people do not intend to issue an order 66 on non-IP people practicing aikido. It sounds like you have a philosophical investment that you have projected onto aikido. I think a have previously mentioned that when we project philosophical and religious beliefs onto aikido the art cannot be challenged without also challenging that beliefs tied to it. That doesn't sound very free or open, especially if you are training with many people who may not share those beliefs tied to your aikido.

There are different paths to aiki. There are better an worse paths. I know a lot of good aikido people who have aiki and have gotten there from different avenues. Personally, I think they are closer in their paths than they want to admit, but there's something about tigers and space to roam... Some paths can be more direct, some paths will never reach the top. I like these threads because they force us to address uncomfortable truths. When I see someone struggle simply defining aiki, guess what are the chances I am going listen when she starts talking about how to do aikido? Even if she's wrong, she dropped an anchor and committed to something and I will listen, even if I don't partake.

But, at some point in time, the have-nots will touch the haves and they will need to resolve what will be a discrepancy in skill. And the haves will be peers without skirts of occlusion to hide behind. No more, "well, he's a 5th dan and I'm not." Or, "he trained in Japan with Sensei fancy pants." Or, "we don't do fighting." Or, "We don't do traditional aikido." I empathize for those who are rigidly tied to what they do because it will be uncomfortable. It was for me. But I also understand that not everyone wants to do this stuff.

Last edited by jonreading : 09-11-2014 at 07:24 AM.

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Old 09-11-2014, 08:07 AM   #88
Cliff Judge
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Re: Refining my view of aiki

Quote:
Markus Rohde wrote: View Post
What was consistently stressed by Asai Sensei, was that the main purpose of Aikido is not winning,
"on the mat we don't fight". What had to be understood was, that it had been Ueshibas deep wish that this way of thinking in categories of winning and loosing needs to be overcome.
This did not mean to be a helpless victim. Permission to "finish" serious attackers outside was given explicitly.
People do not understand how to achieve any fighting skills that could help in a serious situation in the streets while training in a spirit of not fighting and non-resistance, but understanding the principle of O Senseis Aiki is impossible when thinking in such categories.
To destroy an attacker is easy if you want. If you are cold blooded, you can finish him with a single movement. But that was just for the street, to do this you don't need to incure this strenous effort of training. This was the crucial point, not winning.
Nevertheless, the willpower and adamantness Asai Sensei demonstrated when he was challenged by strong Judoka in the beginning, surely was one reason why more and more people joined his seminars and became members of the german Aikikai.
This is pretty much what i am talking about with the philosophy. It's back to square one with the IP folks it seems.
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Old 09-11-2014, 08:13 AM   #89
Cliff Judge
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Re: Refining my view of aiki

Quote:
Jon Reading wrote: View Post
To be clear, its not the fist of irresistible force that's the problem. It's the broken glass stuck to my knuckles with resin that's the problem... I know you are just funnin' with my comments, but I would clarify that my concern with connecting centers is not fear-based. It is a fact that a lesser center connected to a greater center will be overcome. Rather, it's actually courageous to grab someone who can trash you, trust they will not, and then participate in what comes next. Anyone who has worked with an uke who is personally timid can appreciate the courage that person needs to muster every time he grabs nage. What about when he gives not just his arm, but his center?

Aiki is not a threat to aikido. Granted, I could hear some PR-based arguments that to may indicate otherwise, but it's not. As far as I know, the IP people do not intend to issue an order 66 on non-IP people practicing aikido. It sounds like you have a philosophical investment that you have projected onto aikido. I think a have previously mentioned that when we project philosophical and religious beliefs onto aikido the art cannot be challenged without also challenging that beliefs tied to it. That doesn't sound very free or open, especially if you are training with many people who may not share those beliefs tied to your aikido.

There are different paths to aiki. There are better an worse paths. I know a lot of good aikido people who have aiki and have gotten there from different avenues. Personally, I think they are closer in their paths than they want to admit, but there's something about tigers and space to roam... Some paths can be more direct, some paths will never reach the top. I like these threads because they force us to address uncomfortable truths. When I see someone struggle simply defining aiki, guess what are the chances I am going listen when she starts talking about how to do aikido? Even if she's wrong, she dropped an anchor and committed to something and I will listen, even if I don't partake.

But, at some point in time, the have-nots will touch the haves and they will need to resolve what will be a discrepancy in skill. And the haves will be peers without skirts of occlusion to hide behind. No more, "well, he's a 5th dan and I'm not." Or, "he trained in Japan with Sensei fancy pants." Or, "we don't do fighting." Or, "We don't do traditional aikido." I empathize for those who are rigidly tied to what they do because it will be uncomfortable. It was for me. But I also understand that not everyone wants to do this stuff.
I have no problems with the material itself, its the trainwreck of mythology that has sprouted up to link it to Aikido and the personalities of certain people at the front of the movement that have pretty much turned me off of it. I have other interests to focus on if I end up having to deal with too much of this BS in person.
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Old 09-11-2014, 09:40 AM   #90
Zoe
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Re: Refining my view of aiki

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Cliff Judge wrote: View Post
I have no problems with the material itself, its the trainwreck of mythology that has sprouted up to link it to Aikido and the personalities of certain people at the front of the movement that have pretty much turned me off of it. I have other interests to focus on if I end up having to deal with too much of this BS in person.
That sounds exactly like my *Aikido* experiences! Thank you.

It doesn't sound anything like training internal and aiki with Dan.
This training has been a breath of fresh air to many, many people. I could never fully convey what I have seen happen with it in so many rooms with highly ranked people, with things that actually make sense!
I also enjoy now reading other sources revealing a pedagogy throughout the arts that is supportable. I have found it fascinating to now understand what Ueshiba Sensei, Saotome Sensei, and my Daito ryu and Koryu teachers were actually talking about and see that I can now do some of it and have a real path to improve for the first time, instead of just hoping by repeating techniques for decades only to end up feeling or looking like the people that Dan moves all around the room without much thought to it.
In fact, no matter what the arguments are here, or what you might want to call it, I have seen enough to know I would rather be doing that compared to anything else I have seen. This material is the stuff that was missing. The only material I have encountered that makes sense out of what to me was at best a rather hopeful, lukewarm, jujutsu that had little meaning outside of a dojo.
Zoe

Last edited by Zoe : 09-11-2014 at 09:52 AM.
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Old 09-11-2014, 09:47 AM   #91
Dan Richards
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Re: Refining my view of aiki

Quote:
Cliff Judge wrote: View Post
This is pretty much what i am talking about with the philosophy. [ ... stressed by Asai Sensei, was that the main purpose of Aikido is not winning,
"on the mat we don't fight". ] It's back to square one with the IP folks it seems.
I have trained Aikido with a lot people from US, Japan, Germany, Denmark, Norway, Sweden, Finland, France, Poland...and, actually, all along the way I have found them mostly to be fighting. Especially within the yudansha. Fighting with themselves - their own bodies, fighting with others, muscling through technique, hiding behind their hakamas and their grades, and their philosophies, and their Japanese cultural fetishes, and their hero worship.

Marc MacYoung has a good article on "patching." Patching is defined as the things we do to "patch" the holes in our technique and understanding. http://www.nononsenseselfdefense.com/patching.htm

When I first started Tai Chi Chuan, while still training Aikido, I immediately noticed a difference in the bodies and movements of the practitioners. They were more relaxed, more compressed, more solid, more flowing. And they weren't fighting. They put patient, concentrated, focused effort into working to refine body/mind skills. I only trained TTC for about a year. But between that and some Ki Aikido training I'd had, and getting my hands on Shoji Nishio, plus early exposure to works by people like Mantak Chia and Peter Ralston, I was able to put some core pieces together to carry with me on my journey And have for over 20 years had a view towards, and a mindset on, internal training.

I think John makes some good points in his post #87. And I don't find that people here in these forums who are training this stuff, or those who train Aiki and internals in real life, fight much at all. In fact, I think we cheer each other on. And I agree with, "...I think they are closer in their paths than they want to admit..."

I totally agree with Asai Sensei, that this is not about fighting and winning. And it'd be nice to see that truly reflected in the training in more Aikido dojos.

Last edited by Dan Richards : 09-11-2014 at 09:58 AM.

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Old 09-11-2014, 10:15 AM   #92
Cliff Judge
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Re: Refining my view of aiki

Quote:
Zoe Botnaro wrote: View Post
That sounds exactly like my *Aikido* experiences! Thank you.

It doesn't sound anything like training internal and aiki with Dan.
This training has been a breath of fresh air to many, many people.
Great! This is really, really great and I am honestly very happy for you all.
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Old 09-11-2014, 11:07 AM   #93
Dan Richards
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Re: Refining my view of aiki

Anyone wanting to refine their view of aiki - and what it's not; there's a short video of William Gleason demonstrating different principles, opposing energies, and movements that can give some insight.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9i6AVhn0TQ8

A few notes:

1. Power does not move in a straight line.
2. Perfect balance of opposing forces (yin/yang) is not effective in dynamic movement
3. It's not about moving from the hara
4. Opposing forces are always changing
5. Kuzushi is achieved by ki extension
6. Movement in the body can occur in places you didn't think you could move

Last edited by Dan Richards : 09-11-2014 at 11:12 AM.

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Old 09-11-2014, 01:54 PM   #94
Gerardo Torres
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Re: Refining my view of aiki

My notes on your notes.
Quote:
Dan Richards wrote: View Post
1. Power does not move in a straight line.
2. Perfect balance of opposing forces (yin/yang) is not effective in dynamic movement
3. It's not about moving from the hara
4. Opposing forces are always changing
5. Kuzushi is achieved by ki extension
6. Movement in the body can occur in places you didn't think you could move
2. Can you elaborate? I'm not sure I agree ("motion in stillness, stillness in motion" comes to mind).
3. While perhaps not a strict requirement to create aiki, opposing forces from hara is perhaps the most important tenet of IP. What part of Gleason sensei's demo/words made you think it's not about moving from hara?
5. Sure, ki is what makes in-yo. But for practical/training purposes I would say kuzushi is achieved by "[in-yo imbued] movement before contact".
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Old 09-16-2014, 07:01 AM   #95
MRoh
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Re: Refining my view of aiki

Quote:
Cliff Judge wrote: View Post
This is pretty much what i am talking about with the philosophy. It's back to square one with the IP folks it seems.
In my experience the desire to be strong can be found in any group. Some Aikido-people seem to take a path to jujutsu, others may tend into a direction to develop the strongness of daito-ryu aiki.

I think both represent just a subgroup of two larger streams, whereby of course the IP-stream is much smaller.

For me there is no difference in internal or external training, because developing body and mind and conditioning of the body through tanren is what Aikido-training is about, I never heard anything else from my teacher.
To do some kind of solo training is neccessary if someone wants to develop to higher levels, but without a strong foundation it has no use.

To understand why O Sensei did what he did, why he changed his Aiki from direct application to 90 degree angles in kihon or to blending movements in ki no nagare, I think one will not understand if one does only IP-training and does not learn the correct forms, or how to handle a sword correctly.

Last edited by MRoh : 09-16-2014 at 07:04 AM.
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Old 09-17-2014, 08:12 AM   #96
allowedcloud
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Re: Refining my view of aiki

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Matthew Gano wrote: View Post
In a dialectic effort to simplify discussion:
My current definition is that aiki can be summed up as the purposeful balancing of (apparently) opposing forces/aspects in and around the self (taking what seemed conflicted and finding how they work together for a common purpose): "In-Yo-Ho." How is this definition lacking?

May I please ask people to also attempt to define aiki as succinctly as possible?

Please no directly commenting on others' views of aiki. The point here is to get a simple sample of different working definitions of aiki, and to offer my own view as fodder for an effort in distilling what the thing itself might be, assuming it can be described as a discrete "thing" at all.
Thank you for your time (I hope ).
Take care,
Matt
I think this is a good start but incomplete. I see aiki as utilizing the neutral points between those opposing forces to produce kuzushi on contact (as well as other effects). An aiki body has such neutral points everywhere, as the result of spiraling, and all supported by the hara. But in order for this to become effective you must build the aiki body, you must develop the right mind/body connections using solo training.

This is why I disagree with those here that say kihon and form are the foundation of aikido. The solo training *is* the foundation, the kihon waza of aikido is just there for you to practice and apply what you develop in solo training.
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Old 09-17-2014, 09:16 AM   #97
Cliff Judge
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Re: Refining my view of aiki

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Joshua Landin wrote: View Post
I think this is a good start but incomplete. I see aiki as utilizing the neutral points between those opposing forces to produce kuzushi on contact (as well as other effects). An aiki body has such neutral points everywhere, as the result of spiraling, and all supported by the hara. But in order for this to become effective you must build the aiki body, you must develop the right mind/body connections using solo training.

This is why I disagree with those here that say kihon and form are the foundation of aikido. The solo training *is* the foundation, the kihon waza of aikido is just there for you to practice and apply what you develop in solo training.
That's great, so why was solo training never really a part of Aikido until Tohei cross-trained in a yoga system, and was never a part of Daito ryu until Sagawa found he had too much time on his hands?

I am certainly not saying solo training cannot be a core part of *your* Aikido or that it won't / doesn't work for you or anyone else. It is just that you are expanding the definition of aiki to suit your own needs if you require solo training for IP for aiki.
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Old 09-17-2014, 09:23 AM   #98
Cliff Judge
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Re: Refining my view of aiki

Quote:
Markus Rohde wrote: View Post
In my experience the desire to be strong can be found in any group. Some Aikido-people seem to take a path to jujutsu, others may tend into a direction to develop the strongness of daito-ryu aiki.

I think both represent just a subgroup of two larger streams, whereby of course the IP-stream is much smaller.

For me there is no difference in internal or external training, because developing body and mind and conditioning of the body through tanren is what Aikido-training is about, I never heard anything else from my teacher.
To do some kind of solo training is neccessary if someone wants to develop to higher levels, but without a strong foundation it has no use.

To understand why O Sensei did what he did, why he changed his Aiki from direct application to 90 degree angles in kihon or to blending movements in ki no nagare, I think one will not understand if one does only IP-training and does not learn the correct forms, or how to handle a sword correctly.
I agree with almost this entire post.
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Old 09-17-2014, 09:43 AM   #99
Cady Goldfield
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Re: Refining my view of aiki

For aiki, solo is the essential first step. You have to develop unity within your own body - upper body to lower body, left to right, front to back, up to down - and be able to control and direct intent, before you can both be stable and generate power. Once you can harmonize In and Yo (Yin/Yang) in yourself, you then can use it to affect others.

So, I can't imagine any of the truly aiki-adept masters not doing solo training. You can learn only so much by hands-on transmission from a teacher. You can develop some basic skills that way. But to reach the refined levels, truly understand them and to be able to document the step-by-step process of developing an aiki body, you have to be able to parse out each element and train it yourself, mindfully.
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Old 09-17-2014, 10:06 AM   #100
allowedcloud
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Re: Refining my view of aiki

Quote:
Cliff Judge wrote: View Post
That's great, so why was solo training never really a part of Aikido until Tohei cross-trained in a yoga system, and was never a part of Daito ryu until Sagawa found he had too much time on his hands?

I am certainly not saying solo training cannot be a core part of *your* Aikido or that it won't / doesn't work for you or anyone else. It is just that you are expanding the definition of aiki to suit your own needs if you require solo training for IP for aiki.
Oops:

Quote:
Peter Goldsbury wrote: View Post
I have asked Doshu and other Hombu teachers whether Morihei Ueshiba did IP training and the answer was yes, but with the rider that he never taught it: he left this type of training to students who perceived it and wanted to do it. The corollary was (is) that this type of training should be a complement to one's 'kihon' training, but not a substitute for it.
Anyway I am curious as to why someone with no interest in IP/Aiki training would post constantly in the "Internal Training in Aikido" forum. Do you have an axe to grind? If so, why?

If not then I would imagine the amount of energy you put into this here board could be better spent in other areas of the board, like helping newbies on how to fold a hakama.
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