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Old 09-07-2014, 10:43 PM   #26
Erick Mead
 
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Re: Refining my view of aiki

Quote:
Christopher Li wrote: View Post
Quite a lot - my point was not that tensegrity is "the answer" just to point out the cyclic and pointless nature of the trolling going on.
Succinct -- I think the point was -- and summing up their points, not trolling my own... .

Way to be constructive....

Last edited by Erick Mead : 09-07-2014 at 10:48 PM.

Cordially,

Erick Mead
一隻狗可久里馬房但他也不是馬的.
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Old 09-07-2014, 11:32 PM   #27
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Re: Refining my view of aiki

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Erick Mead wrote: View Post
Succinct -- I think the point was -- and summing up their points, not trolling my own... .

Way to be constructive....
Once again, you're missing the point. You characterized my post in a certain way - you were wrong. I clarified, that's it.

Best,

Chris

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Old 09-08-2014, 12:50 AM   #28
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Re: Refining my view of aiki

Logged into AikiWeb and no warning about trolling from Jun so I must not be.

I'm just trying to refine my view of Aiki as the thread says.

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Matthew Gano wrote: View Post
Onward with this solo exercise, then :

Aiki is the dynamic balance of opposing/polarized things so they can then operate cohesively as a whole.
Making sweet sweet aiki is based on the understanding of how to establish that dynamic, actively engaged neutrality, which allows one to reconcile otherwise conflictory activities and/or states (symbolized by in/yin yo/yang). Based on a variety of factors, this can be applied very deeply into ones own body, creating proportional degrees of flexibility and powerful movement, but can also be applied as a principle for affecting circumstances around us beyond that use of balanced, whole-body power.

Would it be better to say aiki is whole-body(-ies) cohesion or whole-body(-ies) power? Neither? Both?
Accepting this as a general view of Aiki. Lets refine it even more. Lee is quoted as saying it is a structure not support by the bones. Ok if we can't say what it is then lets say what it ain't. Is it not the nervous system? Is it not the muscular system? Is it not the facia. What part of human physiology do you think it is not?

dps
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Old 09-08-2014, 01:14 AM   #29
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Re: Refining my view of aiki

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Christopher Li wrote: View Post
This sort of thing has been discussed on Aikiweb for years - I see that you've participated in some of the discussions:
Yes I did. That thread was dated 09-06-2011.

There is an earlier thread about the same subject that I started on 04-06-2010 ;

http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/showthread.php?t=17927.

and a post on 02-07-2010 ;

http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/showth...ity#post251790.

What is your point?

dps
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Old 09-08-2014, 09:52 AM   #30
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Re: Refining my view of aiki

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Cliff Judge wrote: View Post
The differences in what Aiki looks like that I have encountered in my own training (as well as, truth be told, the difference between what the IP people talk about and what I have seen) have led me to think of Aiki as definitely a "phenomenon" or a state of being that occurs, as opposed to a "skill." There is skill in creating AIki but the skill is not the thing itself, and there are multiple skills and ways of building these skills.
I agree. And almost added -- but didn't, because I was going for a succinct definition --  that Aiki is developed by a wide-ranging suite of skills and practices. But, as a whole, having the overall skill of Aiki can be demonstrated, just as can having the skill of cooking, playing a musical instrument, skateboarding, etc. can be demonstrated -- albeit with often wildly varying degrees of skill. Aiki -- with reference to physical movement -- is a body skill.
Quote:
And nothing about Aiki has ever led me to think of it as "power." I have also never thought of it as a thing that is created by the application or generation of "power," in fact that's the opposite of what all of my teachers have said. I've always noticed that when a high level practitioner performs technique on me, that I feel absolutely nothing. Nothing is making me move.
I agree. And when, in my definition, I state, "...the directing of power via the center/will through intent/mind." I am not implying that power is created or generated. It is directed by intent/mind.
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So that's why I think of Aiki as an effect where you engage and surround / capture / absorb your opponents ki with your own, leaving you in charge of the combined ki.
I don't agree here. In the state of being of Aiki: 1. There is no opponent. 2. Their energy is not absorbed.
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Old 09-08-2014, 10:32 AM   #31
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Re: Refining my view of aiki

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Dan Richards wrote: View Post
I agree. And almost added -- but didn't, because I was going for a succinct definition --  that Aiki is developed by a wide-ranging suite of skills and practices. But, as a whole, having the overall skill of Aiki can be demonstrated, just as can having the skill of cooking, playing a musical instrument, skateboarding, etc. can be demonstrated -- albeit with often wildly varying degrees of skill. Aiki -- with reference to physical movement -- is a body skill.
Aiki is not developed, it is caused. The skills which cause it can be developed, naturally. They are not all body skills. Cooking is a skill, food is not a skill. Maybe it is, in fact, like music. Music is the result of skill at playing an instrument, and people will often refer to skill at playing an instrument as "musical skill" however "playing an instrument" well has the effect of "creating music."

Perhaps it is better to say that body skill is one way to make Aiki.

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Dan Richards wrote: View Post
I agree. And when, in my definition, I state, "...the directing of power via the center/will through intent/mind." I am not implying that power is created or generated. It is directed by intent/mind.
There is no power there. Nothing measurable. You can call it "power" if you need a crutch for understanding, I guess, but I don't like to do so because a) none of my teachers have defined it as power and b) the classics seem to warn against the problems that arise when one seeks after power.

You can chalk up any manifestation of Aiki to fooling the receiver's proprioception. Body skill is certainly enormously useful when it comes to doing this, but its not the only way. (And IMO probably the least useful in a combative context).

Erick is really heading in the right direction here. I don't think there is any usefulness in people telling him he has no idea what he is talking about, particularly if they are going to throw a hissy when asked to provide an equally rational explanation. It just sort of looks bad.

On another point..."will" and "intent" are somewhat ambiguous these days. There has been neuroscience research lately that indicates that many times, when we believe we choose to do something - such as picking an object up - the parts of our brains that fire when we choose things, fire somewhat after we have begun the action itself.

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Dan Richards wrote: View Post
I don't agree here. In the state of being of Aiki: 1. There is no opponent. 2. Their energy is not absorbed.
Sure, once Aiki has been caused, there is no opponent, because his energy has been absorbed.
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Old 09-08-2014, 10:41 AM   #32
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Re: Refining my view of aiki

To Erick's comments...
I am not sure I would say aiki is a structural response. Rather, internal power is the structural framework. Aiki is more like the manipulation of the response to the framework.

If I tell you to run full-speed into a concrete wall, your body will refuse. It will, using sensory perception, determine that the wall will not yield and the body will be injured by the action. The result of that analysis is an involuntary action that preserves the body. The wall did not perform aiki, yet it affected the body.

Ryne Sandberg used to say that he could anticipate where a batter was going to hit the baseball by the batters swing and the pitch - in some sense, reading the body posture of the batter. Our bodies give off signals that communicate to our partners. Internal power is the structure that gives off the signal that says, "I am a wall, don't hit me." Intent is the communication method that sends that signal.

Internal power is more related to tensegrity than aiki, as an order thing. In other words, I need to have internal power and intent before I can do aiki, so I necessarily have to have all those things in place that make my structure.

Aiki is the body manipulation that results from the partner attempting to analyse the communication. Best I can tell, the interaction is not bi-directional and it is causal. It is also not connective in the "we" sense, but rather the cause/effect sense.

My current working definitions are that intent is the manifestation of dueling opposing spirals within oneself supported by dantien/hara. Aiki is the manifestation of those opposites around a point of contact supported by dantien/hara. The point of contact can be external (i.e. a sword tip) and it does not need to be physical -but it has to be supported.

Lee's point (I think) was to indicate that through union of opposite energy in yourself, every point in your body is connected to your surroundings. A point of contact is simply an accommodation to a larger structure perspective. This is part of the various "think big" advisement comments we have..

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Old 09-08-2014, 10:44 AM   #33
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Re: Refining my view of aiki

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Sure, once Aiki has been caused, there is no opponent, because his energy has been absorbed.
In my understanding, the opponent's energy is not absorbed into my own structure, so much as redirected in a safe (for me) direction: past me, into the ground, etc. I'm a rock in the stream or a tree in the wind, not an immovable wall.

We may be talking about the same phenomena, but I find that telling people they need to "absorb" energy often leads to tension and rigidity.

Katherine
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Old 09-08-2014, 11:02 AM   #34
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Re: Refining my view of aiki

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Katherine Derbyshire wrote: View Post
In my understanding, the opponent's energy is not absorbed into my own structure, so much as redirected in a safe (for me) direction: past me, into the ground, etc. I'm a rock in the stream or a tree in the wind, not an immovable wall.

We may be talking about the same phenomena, but I find that telling people they need to "absorb" energy often leads to tension and rigidity.

Katherine
I didn't say anything about structure - I said that one system of energy is absorbed by another system of energy. "System of energy" is currently the best I can come up with to describe a complex of physical and non-physical things that include intention and attention, to name two.

I hear you on "absorbed" but this is an intellectual, theoretical discussion we are having. Actual training should keep this kind of discussion and processing to a bare minimum, IMO.
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Old 09-08-2014, 11:53 AM   #35
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Re: Refining my view of aiki

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Cliff Judge wrote: View Post
There is no power there. Nothing measurable. You can call it "power" if you need a crutch for understanding, I guess, but I don't like to do so because a) none of my teachers have defined it as power and b) the classics seem to warn against the problems that arise when one seeks after power.
There is absolutely "power," and it is absolutely measurable and demonstrable, Cliff. And it's important to understand that there is "energy" and there is "power," and they are not the same thing. I don't like the word "energy" when it's used incorrectly. And it's unconstructive to treat the word "power" as some sort of dirty word, or as something undesirable.

Simple example: A river is running through a town. The river is providing energy, but not power. Power, in physics, is defined as "the rate of doing work." Power implies that energy is directed towards a functional end result. So, we've got a river with energy, but we have no power. So, we put in a damn which converts some of the energy into power. We can then direct that power according to intent, which is determined by the will (center). Where do we want that power to go? Oh, how about to our homes, and businesses, and communities, so we can see and be comfortable and productive. So, that we can use that power to create some cool stuff.

And guess what's really cool? The "opposing forces" of the river and the damn (in/yo) and the neutralization of those forces is exactly what creates "power."

I agree, too, with the classics stating one should not seek power. There's no need to "seek" something that is already intrinsic, – but often latent –  within the energies of our universe. The potential for power is in the river, but it exists only as energy – until it is directed towards a purpose. Then it becomes power.

If you are in a room, and there is a cello in the room, there exists the potential energies for you to learn, and then demonstrate your ability to play the cello (power). If you don't want to play cello, it's because your will/center was not engaged, so you and the cello exist only as potentialities of energies.

The "power" I'm talking about, that is directed by intent, is as light as feather, and has the lightest touch. And I agree that with a skilled practitioner of Aiki, you're not going to feel anything coming from them.
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Old 09-08-2014, 12:04 PM   #36
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Re: Refining my view of aiki

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I hear you on "absorbed" but this is an intellectual, theoretical discussion we are having. Actual training should keep this kind of discussion and processing to a bare minimum, IMO.
It's not an intellectual or theoretical discussion. It's straight up applied physics.

The damn does not absorb the energy of the river. The damn redirects the energy. And it's in that redirection of energy that power is produced.

Guess what happens when a damn begins to absorb water (the energy of the river) -- due to a weaken structure? The damn bursts!
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Old 09-08-2014, 12:05 PM   #37
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Re: Refining my view of aiki

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Dan Richards wrote: View Post
There is absolutely "power," and it is absolutely measurable and demonstrable, Cliff.
Measurable? Show me the measurements.

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Dan Richards wrote: View Post
It's not an intellectual or theoretical discussion. It's straight up applied physics
Neuroscience is where the real story is being told.

Last edited by Cliff Judge : 09-08-2014 at 12:08 PM.
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Old 09-08-2014, 12:12 PM   #38
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Re: Refining my view of aiki

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It's not an intellectual or theoretical discussion. It's straight up applied physics.
There is nothing "straight up" about applying physics to non-rigid bodies like humans. The math becomes completely intractable very quickly. Nor, as Cliff pointed out, is it possible to ignore the control system (neuroscience).

Katherine
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Old 09-08-2014, 12:37 PM   #39
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Re: Refining my view of aiki

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Measurable? Show me the measurements.
Sure, there are countless ways. I could start with the "keystone." And note where it says, ...a masonry arch or vault cannot be self-supporting until the keystone is placed, the keystone experiences the least stress of any of the voussoirs, due to its position at the apex.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Keyston...rchitecture%29

The physical forces being applied to any keystone can be measured to a great degree of accuracy. And the effectiveness of the action of the keystone can clearly be demonstrated by 1. The keystone is in place, the arch stands. 2. The keystone is removed, the arch crumbles.

And, back to our damn: the power created by a damn can be accurately measured.

So, I've already given you two examples of demonstrable and measurable power. I can keep going. Would you like some more?
Quote:
Neuroscience is where the real story is being told.
Neuroscience can give us some insights, and, of course, perhaps, increase our resolution into processes further than we may have seen. But it's still a means of description, and "the map is not the territory."

There's just as much, if not more, of the "story" being told down by the river at the damn.

And even more of the real story is being told by the actual practice and application of Aiki.
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Old 09-08-2014, 12:45 PM   #40
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Re: Refining my view of aiki

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Katherine Derbyshire wrote: View Post
There is nothing "straight up" about applying physics to non-rigid bodies like humans. The math becomes completely intractable very quickly. Nor, as Cliff pointed out, is it possible to ignore the control system (neuroscience).

Katherine
It's not even that. Assuming you could measure all the forces at work on two bodies engaged in some kind of aiki thing, how would you measure the amount of "internal power" or "unusual power" being used as opposed to, you know, muscles and stuff.

It boils down to trickery, essentially. Deception. At least, in so far as it would be useful in combat. A lot of the koryu systems address trickery and deception directly. It wasn't until the modern era when people wanted to be awed by the lost secrets of yore that there was a market for a little man to go travel around giving seminars where he performed seemingly magic tricks on people.
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Old 09-08-2014, 01:00 PM   #41
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Re: Refining my view of aiki

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Katherine Derbyshire wrote: View Post
There is nothing "straight up" about applying physics to non-rigid bodies like humans. The math becomes completely intractable very quickly. Nor, as Cliff pointed out, is it possible to ignore the control system (neuroscience).
The physics is not applied to the "non-rigid" bodies, which, I agree, can have nearly an infinite amount of variables, and is far beyond any sciences we currently have.

What I was implying is that "straight up" applied physics can be used to determine and measure the forces and vectors and motion being directed by a physical body.
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Old 09-08-2014, 01:02 PM   #42
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Re: Refining my view of aiki

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Dan Richards wrote: View Post
Sure, there are countless ways. I could start with the "keystone." And note where it says, ...a masonry arch or vault cannot be self-supporting until the keystone is placed, the keystone experiences the least stress of any of the voussoirs, due to its position at the apex.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Keyston...rchitecture%29

The physical forces being applied to any keystone can be measured to a great degree of accuracy. And the effectiveness of the action of the keystone can clearly be demonstrated by 1. The keystone is in place, the arch stands. 2. The keystone is removed, the arch crumbles.

And, back to our damn: the power created by a damn can be accurately measured.

So, I've already given you two examples of demonstrable and measurable power. I can keep going. Would you like some more?
Far out, man! So without Aiki the keystone would totally break?
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Old 09-08-2014, 01:14 PM   #43
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Re: Refining my view of aiki

Personally I think Matthew is mad - mad in the sort of poking a bees nest with a short stick while naked mad. Either that or he likes to cause trouble. From my experience with him - I will stay with mad.

I still think Shioda's description in the best both with respect to clarity and simplicity but obviously that's not enough for some. I am perfectly happy with the other nuances introduced by the likes of Takeda's son - all are relatively simple. I don't think you can get very complicated describing aiki just as you can not understand it by observation or fully understand it just receiving the technique. It is something you must do yourself before you can start improving and adjusting.

Too much thinking, description will hinder rather than help.

Peter Rehse Shodokan Aikido
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Old 09-08-2014, 01:20 PM   #44
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Re: Refining my view of aiki

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It's not even that. Assuming you could measure all the forces at work on two bodies engaged in some kind of aiki thing, how would you measure the amount of "internal power" or "unusual power" being used as opposed to, you know, muscles and stuff.

It boils down to trickery, essentially. Deception. At least, in so far as it would be useful in combat. A lot of the koryu systems address trickery and deception directly. It wasn't until the modern era when people wanted to be awed by the lost secrets of yore that there was a market for a little man to go travel around giving seminars where he performed seemingly magic tricks on people.
Cliff, there's a great article written by Gaku Homma on some of the deception and trickery back in the day.

http://www.nippon-kan.org/senseis_ar...hu-and-ha.html

I think when we think about something that might have been termed "unusual power," we have to keep in mind that many who might have been experiencing it from someone were those coming from cultural backgrounds where the idea of big muscles and muscular strength was the norm. And it seems apparent that if they experienced a physical interaction with someone who was completely relaxed and could toss them around, that they would describe that as "unusual power."

Even now, when I demonstrate to people the intrinsic strength and powerful ability of their own naturally-relaxed bodies, they find it "unusual." I can grab a small, skinny women with two hands on her arms, and she won't be able to move. But then I ask her to forget about me and my hands grabbing her, and for her to just go back into her own relaxed, natural energy. Then I ask her to do commonplace moves, like scratch her nose, take off her glasses, even take off my glasses. She's able to do them effortlessly.

If she tries and muscles me, she can't move. If she relaxes and forgets about me, she can move freely.

That is, by many people's standards, unless they've experienced it firsthand, "unusual." And, even for many, it remains unusual until they get used to it.

There's no trick to it. No deception. Just taping into the intrinsic strength and power within our own bodies and psyches.
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Old 09-08-2014, 01:24 PM   #45
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Re: Refining my view of aiki

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Far out, man! So without Aiki the keystone would totally break?
Aiki is the keystone. Without the keystone, there is no arch. Without Aiki there is no Aikido. Pretty simple.
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Old 09-08-2014, 01:49 PM   #46
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Re: Refining my view of aiki

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Jon Reading wrote: View Post
To Erick's comments...
I am not sure I would say aiki is a structural response. Rather, internal power is the structural framework. Aiki is more like the manipulation of the response to the framework.
... The result ... is an involuntary action that preserves the body. The wall did not perform aiki, yet it affected the body.
This is going somewhere useful, conceptually. Involuntary action and structural protection.

But if it were just the structure everyone would have it -- and I don't believe that is the case. But if there is a structural response, one that is not consciously under direct control -- it will not seem like an "action" when it occurs. It will seem like "the wall," when in fact it wasn't the wall at all -- it is a visual field flinch reflex based on apparent closure rate actuated by the superior colliculus before the conscious visual cortex even gets the signal to process.

What is the structure or response preferentially protecting against? I offer two different ways of answering that question -- one founded on mechanical principle and one founded in empirical experience in aikido.

The first is that all structures are weakest in shear and especially torsional shear. Shear is a combination of tension and compression at right angles. Structures are weakest in shear because they must be equally strong both in tensile and compressive strength -- and most materials are weaker in one or the other. Torsional shear is worse yet because most materials and structures are strong in some axes and weaker in others -- and torsion spirals the tensile and compressive stresses of the shear through all 3 axes at once -- and concentrates at any discontinuity or weak spot where its effects are most notably felt or seen.

Certain spinal reflexes respond to these signals to avoid structural damage before voluntary motor perception or action can occur. The muscle spindles and Golgi tendon organs mediate these reflexes, and are sensitive to the amount and rate of load on the muscle or stretch on the tendon associated with a muscle bundle. This is the physiology behind pressure-point tuite and targeted in yonkyo.

Secondly. in Aikido, we see this vulnerability exploited displayed in sankyo and aiki-age (firing the extensor reflex arc), and in nikkyo, kotegaeshi, and aikisage (firing the flexor reflex arc) They are also sensitive to certain oscillation -- because at certain rates these present sensations of uncontrollable shear at joints (positive and negative phases so close they appear to be acting at the same time -- as far as the body can tell).

This occurs at the resonance frequency of the body 5Hz (furitama) and its first harmonic at 10Hz (tekubifuri). Resonance is particularly dangerous because undamped resonance will increase in amplitude until it destroys a structure-- like a glass shattering -- or the Tacoma Narrows bridge tearing itself to pieces in moderate wind. The body responds wiht the flexor or extensor arcs -- or both in succession depending on how the peak phases of the oscillating stretch hits the sensor bundles.

Slightly higher frequencies (starting at ~30Hz) cause the tonic vibration reflex response, though this is of less certain of application here. Sustained vibration at these frequencies causes involuntary contraction of the smooth muscle-like fascia surrounding the skeletal muscle fiber bundles -- like your hands that become clenched from the vibration of the tines when raking leaves.

Quote:
Our bodies give off signals that communicate to our partners. Internal power is the structure that gives off the signal that says, "I am a wall, don't hit me." Intent is the communication method that sends that signal.
If you and I are correct about the the involuntary nature of these structural protections, then "intent" is an inaccurate and misleading word -- though understandable.

If the perception and active control is happening below conscious perception and too fast for direct reaction (and it is, we seem to agree on this much) then the more accurate description is a feed-forward control. A feed-forward control is something readied or actuated BEFORE the action or event to which it is meant to address, but because the control is based on a known pattern of the action or event -- the control effects a change in the event or action when it does occur, even though the control preceded it in time.

Quote:
Internal power is more related to tensegrity than aiki, as an order thing. In other words, I need to have internal power and intent before I can do aiki, so I necessarily have to have all those things in place that make my structure.
To say that the structures are like tensegrity models is not wrong -- but it is incomplete. The architectural tensegrity structures are polyhedrally organized -- the body plainly isn't. This linked model, though, is a good guide to what is very probably correct as to the spine, It takes little imagination in those models to see that there are spiral load paths tracing along the "tendons" attached to the spinal processes. The limb muscles not only perform opposed levered joint action but also supinate and pronate the limb causing torsion of the limb. These reciprocal spiral paths through the sensor bundles are vulnerable to torques. The resonant oscillations attack all of them, sequentially.

Quote:
Aiki is the body manipulation that results from the partner attempting to analyse the communication. ...
My current working definitions are that intent is the manifestation of dueling opposing spirals within oneself supported by dantien/hara. Aiki is the manifestation of those opposites around a point of contact supported by dantien/hara. The point of contact can be external (i.e. a sword tip) and it does not need to be physical -but it has to be supported.
Spirals of what is the issue. And "intent" toward them in what manner.

I say they are spirals of the shear of torsion -- fire in tension, water in compression (to use the traditional mode), exploiting reflex arcs, and a related physiological action based on critical oscillations. Both of these have field effects in any structure in continuity -- hence the importance of the quality of connection.

Where I believe I differ from what you seem to be doing is that I think this IS a two-way street -- both in exploiting the attacker's vulnerabilities and exploiting the defender's reflexive aspects counter-offensively also. I think that there are reflexive actions that have offensive value if used in a feed-forward fashion. There are some other neurological and physiological points that inform these perspectives as far as recommendations for training, and constructive critiques of certain modes of training, but that is enough for this response, since "succinct" already went by the boards...

Cordially,

Erick Mead
一隻狗可久里馬房但他也不是馬的.
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Old 09-08-2014, 02:20 PM   #47
Erick Mead
 
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Re: Refining my view of aiki

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Dan Richards wrote: View Post
The physics is not applied to the "non-rigid" bodies, which, I agree, can have nearly an infinite amount of variables, and is far beyond any sciences we currently have.
Not at all... if you apply a rotation or torque to a non-rigid structure you organize it as a field and reduce it to two essential mechanical variables ... one of radius and the other of either stress or angular velocity - which is a function of radius. Even gasses and fluids.

Cordially,

Erick Mead
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Old 09-08-2014, 03:38 PM   #48
Dan Richards
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Re: Refining my view of aiki

Erick, I was replying to Katherine's assertion...

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Katherine Derbyshire wrote: View Post
There is nothing "straight up" about applying physics to non-rigid bodies like humans. The math becomes completely intractable very quickly.
In this instance, we're talking specifically about human bodies. Are you agreeing with Katherine, or disagreeing with both of us?

Cliff stated in #34, I hear you on "absorbed" but this is an intellectual, theoretical discussion we are having. Actual training should keep this kind of discussion and processing to a bare minimum, IMO.

To which I replied in #36, It's not an intellectual or theoretical discussion. It's straight up applied physics.

What's your take?
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Old 09-08-2014, 03:39 PM   #49
mathewjgano
 
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Re: Refining my view of aiki

Quote:
Peter Rehse wrote: View Post
Personally I think Matthew is mad - mad in the sort of poking a bees nest with a short stick while naked mad. Either that or he likes to cause trouble. From my experience with him - I will stay with mad.
I think I have to agree. I'm the kind of guy who will purposefully move into the right lane on the freeway as I approach an on-ramp, under the mistaken notion that I can somehow facilitate the merging better. Too often I find myself just more stuck in traffic. I view these discussions as exercises in engaging a difficult topic. I thought if I framed things in my own terms we might avoid some of the common difficulties of the past, but it can be hard to revisit topics without bringing some of the old baggage along with it I guess.
Whatever the case is for the nature of this thread, I'd like to pass along clarification of Lee's quote that I used.
Quote:
Lee wrote:
[The quote] is not me defining aiki, it is me describing an aspect of internal power, but not really defining internal power very well either.
Thank you, Lee. It might not be very well done (I can't tell; beyond my pay grade), but I do find it useful to consider (and posted it more to point out that there are indeed straightforward descriptions that have been made).

Quote:
Peter wrote:
Too much thinking, description will hinder rather than help.
Along these lines, I'm finding the simplest descriptions seem the most helpful. In the past I've also noticed that in the more drawn out conversations, I get confused and forget simple points that were made earlier. So again, folks, please do try to keep things as concise as possible. It might not be a sufficient description, but I do think it makes the conversation go more easily.

I'll try to respond more directly to some of the comments people have made (thank you, everyone for taking the time), but for now it's prepping for preschool and other more important things (and I've been trying to work on thinking more about what I want to say before actually doing so).

Last edited by mathewjgano : 09-08-2014 at 03:44 PM.

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Old 09-08-2014, 03:48 PM   #50
kewms
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Re: Refining my view of aiki

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Dan Richards wrote: View Post
What I was implying is that "straight up" applied physics can be used to determine and measure the forces and vectors and motion being directed by a physical body.
Which means you've measured the external effects without getting any particular insight into what's going on in either person's body. Since the internal structure/movement is what we're trying to emulate, that doesn't seem particularly helpful.

Katherine
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