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Old 09-08-2014, 07:32 AM   #1
Tobraham
Dojo: Nippon-Kan Denver Co
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Newbie - After Practice Soreness

Well, three weeks in to my Aikido training and boy are my knees sore, along with the arches of my feet and my poor rotator cuff, which was already slightly damaged prior to Aikidio.

I've also noticed that half of the class is wearing either wrist braces, ankle braces or knees braces. Is it just THAT common that soreness takes place in the joints after a good session? When does that start to go away, if ever? Judging by all the black belts in braces it almost appears that it never goes away.
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Old 09-08-2014, 08:53 AM   #2
dps
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Re: Newbie - After Practice Soreness

Quote:
Toby Sheets wrote: View Post
I've also noticed that half of the class is wearing either wrist braces, ankle braces or knees braces. Is it just THAT common that soreness takes place in the joints after a good session? When does that start to go away, if ever? Judging by all the black belts in braces it almost appears that it never goes away.
Does not sound good.

I would go to a doctor that specializes in sports medicine before going to the next practice and discuss your physical condition and what you are doing in class.

Believe me any injury to your joints now will start showing up in your forties and gets worse as you approach sixty.

dps
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Old 09-08-2014, 09:02 AM   #3
Malicat
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Re: Newbie - After Practice Soreness

Quote:
Toby Sheets wrote: View Post
Well, three weeks in to my Aikido training and boy are my knees sore, along with the arches of my feet and my poor rotator cuff, which was already slightly damaged prior to Aikidio.

I've also noticed that half of the class is wearing either wrist braces, ankle braces or knees braces. Is it just THAT common that soreness takes place in the joints after a good session? When does that start to go away, if ever? Judging by all the black belts in braces it almost appears that it never goes away.
I can't speak to your dojo, but most of my Aikido training has fixed my issues. I had extremely severe arthritis in both wrists from injuries, and Aikido wrist stretching exercises have relieved a lot of that pain.

Also, while we do have some black belts in braces, many of them have damage from other martial arts, and switched to Aikido because of the relative low levels of strain on their bodies. You're going to be sore after starting any kind of new physical regimen, the important thing is to understand a good level of sore in your body versus actual damage.

--Ashley
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Old 09-08-2014, 09:16 AM   #4
lbb
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Re: Newbie - After Practice Soreness

Muscular soreness after class is normal, and not necessarily a bad thing. Joint pain is a different matter. I don't think joint pain ever means that something good is going on. See previous advice, it's good for ya.

As for your fellow students, you might want to ask them why they are wearing braces, and if they seem open to it, how they got their injuries. Sometimes I wear an elbow brace because I got a really bad case of tennis elbow once and didn't adequately take care of it at the time, so now I'm prone to it. Sometimes I tape a thumb that I sprained while skiing or a wrist that I sprained in karate, and sometimes I have a bit of trouble with a shoulder that I dislocated falling down stairs (yeah, call me Grace...and before you ask, it was years before I studied aikido). Right now I'm nursing a sprained finger that I caught in someone's gi sleeve (aha! an aikido injury at last). I'm a mess!
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Old 09-08-2014, 09:44 AM   #5
Tobraham
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Re: Newbie - After Practice Soreness

Quote:
David Skaggs wrote: View Post

Believe me any injury to your joints now will start showing up in your forties and gets worse as you approach sixty.

dps
Well, I'm 43 now, so I'm sure my frail, old-man body is beginning to show its weaknesses. I have isolated the soreness to the MCL, right on the insides of both knees. It was slightly swollen and sore to the touch.

After 2 days of periodic icing and a compression brace my knees are perfect again, so I'm pretty sure it's just soreness from two things:

1) planting my foot on the mat and not turning on the balls of the feet, causing a bit of torsion strain.

2) using my legs in ways unfamiliar to everyday walking around, like the constant popping up from the ground for an hour.

Perhaps also 3) sitting in seiza (lots of stress on the knees)



I've been working on my footwork at home with drills trying to burn into my muscle memory the proper foot placement, sliding and turning, so that tonight's session should go easier. I've been doing weighted squats for about a year now so I feel I've been properly building the muscles around my knee joints. I'm also going to take up bicycle riding to help keep the knees exercised without overloading them. Riding a bike around Colorado really does wonders for the legs!

Last edited by Tobraham : 09-08-2014 at 09:49 AM.
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Old 09-08-2014, 10:54 AM   #6
Dan Richards
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Re: Newbie - After Practice Soreness

Toby, it sounds like you mostly have inflammation. Taking an anti-inflammatory like an NSAID or, better yet, quercetin and bromelain can keeps things cooled down.

I'd also just say, take it easy on the knees, brother. Aikido is a notorious milieu for people screwing up their knees. I would highly suggest you sloooow down in your movements. Get some proper principles and skills under your belt, especially with regards to movement of the knees. Such as...

1. The knee should always move in the direction of, and directly over, the foot.

2. The knee should never extend past the foot.

You DO NOT need to strengthen your knees. Just like you don't need to strengthen your elbows. They are hinges, and nothing more. What you need to do is STOP weakening the hinges. Stop putting undue stress on them.

I'd also say, do your class training in class, but for now, stop trying to replicate it at home. Far better to get some real fundamentals in your body, such as those gained by horse stances. Here's some good info on horse stances...http://www.trigram.blogspot.com/2007...al-arts-2.html

And, again, slow it down. Better to make a few fundamental movements correctly that a thousand incorrectly.

Cheers...

Last edited by Dan Richards : 09-08-2014 at 10:58 AM.
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Old 09-08-2014, 11:06 AM   #7
kewms
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Re: Newbie - After Practice Soreness

You might want to talk to your instructor.

Partly because he knows exactly what you've been doing, and may be able to help you improve your form.

Partly because you want to know what level of soreness strikes him as "normal." If he views having to ice your knees for two days as "just part of the process," or expects that most people will have chronic injuries after training for a long time, then you might want to consider finding another dojo.

Katherine
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Old 09-08-2014, 01:05 PM   #8
Tobraham
Dojo: Nippon-Kan Denver Co
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Re: Newbie - After Practice Soreness

Dan:

Thank you! That's a great help!

I will say that the idea of strengthening the knees is more about having good structure around the joint which in theory helps keep it more stable.

As for practicing at home. I find that I can concentrate better at home without the pressure of having a black belt play uke for me. I feel like sometimes they're waiting for me to get on with it - it could just be me putting the pressure on myself. So at home I can slow down, make sure my knees and feet are pointed in the right direction and take my time - which should help get it right in slow motion.

Also, we haven't had much practice of just the feet. It's always the entire technique at once, so as a newb there's just so much happening at once - slide this, extend that, turn this, grab here, thumbs up. I don't always notice the slight twist of the knee in the wrong direction with all the other stuff going on. So being able to calmly focus on the feet helps quite a bit. Make sense?

Quote:
Dan Richards wrote: View Post
Toby, it sounds like you mostly have inflammation. Taking an anti-inflammatory like an NSAID or, better yet, quercetin and bromelain can keeps things cooled down.

I'd also just say, take it easy on the knees, brother. Aikido is a notorious milieu for people screwing up their knees. I would highly suggest you sloooow down in your movements. Get some proper principles and skills under your belt, especially with regards to movement of the knees. Such as...

1. The knee should always move in the direction of, and directly over, the foot.

2. The knee should never extend past the foot.

You DO NOT need to strengthen your knees. Just like you don't need to strengthen your elbows. They are hinges, and nothing more. What you need to do is STOP weakening the hinges. Stop putting undue stress on them.

I'd also say, do your class training in class, but for now, stop trying to replicate it at home. Far better to get some real fundamentals in your body, such as those gained by horse stances. Here's some good info on horse stances...http://www.trigram.blogspot.com/2007...al-arts-2.html

And, again, slow it down. Better to make a few fundamental movements correctly that a thousand incorrectly.

Cheers...
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Old 09-09-2014, 08:02 AM   #9
Tobraham
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Re: Newbie - After Practice Soreness

Nice session last night. No knee pains this morning. A little bit of rotator cuff pain from ikkyo but nothing to write home about. Woot!
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Old 09-09-2014, 09:17 AM   #10
Erick Mead
 
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Re: Newbie - After Practice Soreness

Quote:
Toby Sheets wrote: View Post
Well, I'm 43 now, so I'm sure my frail, old-man body is beginning to show its weaknesses. I have isolated the soreness to the MCL, right on the insides of both knees. It was slightly swollen and sore to the touch.
Quote:
A little bit of rotator cuff pain
A word to the wise for the post-30 age brackets. The body between 30-35 stops producing much of its own glucosamine -- which is a building block for cartilage. The reason is that your epihyseal sutures at the ends of the long bones, ceased growing in your late 20's and begin to fuse, which is complete by mid 30's. There is much less of this building block thereafter produced and so less is available for non-routine healing. Joint damage after this age from an active lifestyle tends to accumulate without prophylactic glucosamine . I had a bad shoulder in my early 40's with an incipient rotator cuff tear -- and with 6 months of regular glucosamine it returned to proper form.

Similarly, most people walk around marginally deficient in magnesium and Vitamin C -- and significant amounts must be available for good collagen synthesis to repair and strengthen strained ligaments and tendons.

Cordially,

Erick Mead
一隻狗可久里馬房但他也不是馬的.
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Old 09-09-2014, 09:21 AM   #11
phitruong
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Re: Newbie - After Practice Soreness

things that you want to keep in mind. knees and ankles don't do well with lateral torque. they work well with up/down and front/back type of motion.

pay attention when you turn. pick up your feet when you turn would take the lateral stress out of your knees and ankles. pay attention on how you transfer your weight between the legs.

relax your hip joins and lower back and open up your groin area a bit. imagine there is a small roman arch stuck in your groin area or you sat on the arch.

at my dojo, we practice weapon works outdoor, on uneven ground, wearing street shoes. you learn very quickly to do the above stuffs or you would be in a world of hurt.

don't know what your dojo ukemi practice. however, rolling over the shoulder isn't a good idea, even though quite a few aikido folks do it. a few years ago, i had a conversation with Donavan Waite sensei and he said he doesn't teach roll going over the shoulders anymore. it's more of going sideway, which is similar with Ellis Amdur's rolling approach, sort of monkey roll (with a side of kimchi).

"budo is putting on cold, wet, sweat stained gi with a smile and a snarl" - your truly
http://charlotteaikikai.org
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Old 09-09-2014, 09:48 AM   #12
Erick Mead
 
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Re: Newbie - After Practice Soreness

Quote:
Phi Truong wrote: View Post
things that you want to keep in mind. knees and ankles don't do well with lateral torque. they work well with up/down and front/back type of motion.
@ Toby: Udefuri undo is a good taiso to strengthen the whole body for torsional loads. (FWIW, unfortunately, I find most of the videos available online for this exercise to be incorrect and ineffective, IMO.)

Done properly, it should involve the whole body swinging the arms from the core, making weight shift from leg to leg, and loading the more weighted leg with the mild winding-up torque that causes the return swing -- from pure momentum only, initially, especially when recovering from any injury.

Do NOT drive the swing to any significant degree until you have fully healed, but just let an easy moment stretch and load things in succession. Once they are back in good shape then you can add hand weights -- kettlebells are great (and still with just an easy swing).

Connective tissues aren't muscles -- just keep repeat stressing them in small but steadily and incrementally increasing load over time and it will eventually strengthen them -- but it is NOT like training to fatigue for musculature. Plus, heavy nutrition additions as you are older.

And lastly you can start to drive the swing from the core, at first without hand weight, and then with. This builds structural strength as well as drilling in core-driven response paths for more dynamic action.

Cordially,

Erick Mead
一隻狗可久里馬房但他也不是馬的.
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Old 09-09-2014, 10:03 PM   #13
Tobraham
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Re: Newbie - After Practice Soreness

Erick / Phi:

Fantastic feedback, thank you!
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Old 09-10-2014, 07:55 AM   #14
Malicat
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Re: Newbie - After Practice Soreness

Quote:
Erick Mead wrote: View Post
A word to the wise for the post-30 age brackets. The body between 30-35 stops producing much of its own glucosamine -- which is a building block for cartilage. The reason is that your epihyseal sutures at the ends of the long bones, ceased growing in your late 20's and begin to fuse, which is complete by mid 30's.
Actually Erick, that's not accurate. The majority of bone fusion finishes by about 16 years old, fusion and growth are different things. Fusion is when bones with multiple growth centers become a single bone, so for example your femur is in 3 pieces as a child, but by about 16, it's one solid piece, although that doesn't mean it is done growing, since growth is just what it sounds like, the bone gets bigger. Bone growth is generally finished by early 20's, although some growth does continue to about the age of 27, the last bone to finish growing in your body is the clavicle.

--Ashley
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Old 09-10-2014, 03:22 PM   #15
crbateman
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Re: Newbie - After Practice Soreness

I like to head off that after-practice soreness by being sore before practice...
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Old 09-11-2014, 11:29 PM   #16
Tobraham
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Re: Newbie - After Practice Soreness

Can you recommend a good source for the video?

Quote:
Erick Mead wrote: View Post
@ Toby: Udefuri undo is a good taiso to strengthen the whole body for torsional loads. (FWIW, unfortunately, I find most of the videos available online for this exercise to be incorrect and ineffective, IMO.)
.
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Old 10-07-2014, 03:50 AM   #17
lifestylemanoz
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Re: Newbie - After Practice Soreness

Having trained for quite a long time and with my fair share of injuries, I feel I can weigh in.

Initially when you begin falling you will have some elements of soreness until your technique becomes solid, particularly shoulders. Like any sport there will be sprains from time to time.

Having had sore hands and feet for years at a time and then suddenly go away, I have become suspicious about long term injury and have tended to look at the mind body aspect and how our body can be opportunistic about injury.

If we were really in that much trouble, we wouldn't be training but resting.

Read Sarno, Mind body Connection.

But yes, most beginners do go through some entry level pain, just like taking on any new sport.
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Old 10-14-2014, 10:22 AM   #18
TenkanThomas
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Re: Newbie - After Practice Soreness

Hello friend,

I'm also new to aikido and I can relate to what you are saying about soreness. I'm in the same boat. It seems to be getting less painful each week though; I'm hoping that my body will learn to adapt to it! : )
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