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Old 09-04-2014, 03:42 AM   #51
Alec Corper
 
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Re: Aikido as an actual Martial Art

I pretty much agree with what greg has said. the use of agreed to terminology might save a lot of endless discussion and pointless training. I would also recommend Keegan and Grossman, and would add Rory Miller's work to further examine the difference, shortfall, and/or value of martial art versus self defence. Of course there are analogous and comparative overlaps between territories, but for example, dedicated training in a martial art will probably not train you to identify suspicious body language as a precast to violence. If it did you would remove yourself from the area. Ideal self defence, no martial art needed. Very few dojos teach deception as a self defence skill, after all acting scared to pave the way for proactive defence makes a lot of sense but doesn't always jibe with peoples idea of being a noble warrior.
Modern aikido is a martial art which is technically irrelevant on the modern battlefield where H2H is considered only after 3 levels of weapons failure. It could, of course, be argued that through aikido practise you would gain more strategic awareness but I don't honestly see much evidence to support this.

If your temper rises withdraw your hand, if your hand rises withdraw your temper.
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Old 09-04-2014, 07:08 AM   #52
phitruong
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Re: Aikido as an actual Martial Art

Quote:
Alec Corper wrote: View Post
It could, of course, be argued that through aikido practise you would gain more strategic awareness but I don't honestly see much evidence to support this.
methink, the word here is "strategic", meaning planning and thinking ahead, way ahead. whereas, most aikido practice stress be in the moment, be in the now. tactical maybe; strategic, no.

"budo is putting on cold, wet, sweat stained gi with a smile and a snarl" - your truly
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Old 09-04-2014, 08:25 AM   #53
Alec Corper
 
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Wink Re: Aikido as an actual Martial Art

Nope Phi,
I meant exactly what i said. I understand the difference between strategy and tactics. I was actually saying that I don't think aikido will develop strategic awareness, and if it did we would talk less about instant aikido"self defence' since it would not be necessary.
"Being in the now", love that phrase, requires enormous strategic and tactical training before you can throw it all away. The assumption that a martial art will provide that through some kind of magical osmosis is false, IMHO

If your temper rises withdraw your hand, if your hand rises withdraw your temper.
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Old 09-04-2014, 08:29 AM   #54
Alec Corper
 
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Re: Aikido as an actual Martial Art

P.S.
This is the same as trying to equate "using your body in a natural way" with "using you body according to the natural principles of yin/yang". My natural and your natural are different, but when trained similar, no?

If your temper rises withdraw your hand, if your hand rises withdraw your temper.
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Old 09-04-2014, 12:27 PM   #55
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Re: Aikido as an actual Martial Art

Quote:
Alec Corper wrote: View Post
Of course there are analogous and comparative overlaps between territories, but for example, dedicated training in a martial art will probably not train you to identify suspicious body language as a precast to violence. If it did you would remove yourself from the area. Ideal self defence, no martial art needed.
Sparring and weapons arts absolutely teach the ability to read body language, in order to judge the timing of an attack. I agree, though, that the connection between those skills and "street self defense" is a bit more tenuous.

Katherine
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Old 09-04-2014, 12:52 PM   #56
Alec Corper
 
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Re: Aikido as an actual Martial Art

Actually Katherine, thats's not what I am talking about. Reading the timing of an attack is a useful skill but it means you didn't read the language before the attack even was launched. That kind of self defence is very useful after your skills in awareness, avoidance, and de-escalation have already failed you and you now have no choice but to engage, Sen no sen or sen go no sen is all very well but if you are not already in a war zone how come you stumbled into one, or worse still created one by acting wrongly in an unidentified territory.
I have done plenty of sparring and weapons work over the years, I do not believe they help one bit to improve your awareness outside the dojo unless you consciously identify and transfer those skills. I lived in Israel many years ago and had friends in Mossad and IDF who had done things in wartime and behind enemy lines that would scare the hell out of me and yet in daily life they could be as daft as the next person.
Martial artists who walk down a street chatting on their mobile phone without any idea of who is watching them, or sizing them up, are as unprepared as anyone else.

If your temper rises withdraw your hand, if your hand rises withdraw your temper.
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Old 09-04-2014, 01:40 PM   #57
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Re: Aikido as an actual Martial Art

Quote:
Alec Corper wrote: View Post
Actually Katherine, thats's not what I am talking about. Reading the timing of an attack is a useful skill but it means you didn't read the language before the attack even was launched. That kind of self defence is very useful after your skills in awareness, avoidance, and de-escalation have already failed you and you now have no choice but to engage, Sen no sen or sen go no sen is all very well but if you are not already in a war zone how come you stumbled into one, or worse still created one by acting wrongly in an unidentified territory.
Fair enough. I absolutely agree.

Along these lines, I highly recommend Gavin de Becker's book, "The Gift of Fear," which focuses on skills for identifying bad people and bad situations before physical self defense skills become necessary. Among other things he recommends a "think like a mugger" exercise. Where are the hiding places for potential attackers near your home, in the parking garage at work, near your favorite club?

Katherine
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Old 09-04-2014, 02:02 PM   #58
Alec Corper
 
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Re: Aikido as an actual Martial Art

Yes, great book read it when it first came out , 15 -20 years ago. just as valid now.
My point is that aikido is an "actual" martial art, but that is not the same as self defence which is much bigger than physical techniques and philosophy. people delude themselves and fail the art by avoiding this issue and practising sophistry instead.
As an instructor I find it very difficult to be all things to all people, if people want self defence they should not go to a dojo, they should go to a school that specialises in self defence. If the first class is how to poke eyes and strike the throat they should leave immediately, not because its violent but because its stupid.
One of the best self defence instructors I know, Datu Kelly Worden sums it up in a nice simple formula
Awareness
Avoidance
De-escalation
Defence
Escape or Explain ( to the authorities)

Filling this in requires a lot of pre-thought and study

Rory Millers' concept of "go buttons" is another psychological training that most martial artists don't think about, except in heroic fantasy terms.

Glib answers to the validity of aikido as a system of self defence are pointless since it is not for self defence. It is for developing a martial body, understanding martial movement, and embodying an unwavering spirit. Can that be tweaked for self defence? Sure. Will it still be aikido, I doubt it. Does that really matter. Depends on you.

If your temper rises withdraw your hand, if your hand rises withdraw your temper.
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Old 09-18-2014, 01:34 AM   #59
Stephen Nichol
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Re: Aikido as an actual Martial Art

I am happy to have read Greg's posts regarding his definition of Warrior's and Martial Artists as well as the purpose behind those systems and their goals for people.

I agree with them completely as well as Alec's post about what Self Defense should be.. and it is more about being prepared, know how to be more aware and what to look out for to avoid the need for violence to protect yourself or others.

So many people need to stop believing in movies, fight scenes, demo's etc when they come to a dojo or martial art school of any sort looking for that sort of thing.

Like you said Alec, it's hard to be everything for everyone... and the most liberating part of that awareness is to be able to tell those people that maybe they will be able to find some of what they are looking for here and there and not feel the need to be anything at all for them but leave it up to them to find what they need for themselves.

When I go to the dojo and practice the 'art' I am much more aware of what it is supposed to be instilling in me and I do not get caught up in the individual techniques anymore. I just look at how it is trying to condition me, force me to improve through re-development of my mind to body connection. The techniques are just a means to that end and far from being the point of it all.

You could study many different arts and get the same thing if you were looking for it I would imagine. It is nice to be able to choose an art that fits your personality in these modern times.

Anyway, thanks for the excellent post Alec.

Last edited by Stephen Nichol : 09-18-2014 at 01:37 AM.
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Old 12-13-2014, 07:22 AM   #60
fatebass21
 
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Re: Aikido as an actual Martial Art

Abdul,

Reference the following link for a great article on practical aikido outside of the dojo. It is very interesting and relates to what you are discussing here. This was written by Chris Hein who is part of this community.

http://www.aikidostudent.com/ASCv2/?p=393

Chris Sawyer
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Tenshinkai Aikido Federation
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Old 01-20-2015, 02:21 PM   #61
Tim Fong
 
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Re: Aikido as an actual Martial Art

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WoQQlOEnSFI

I feel like this video offered some of the best aikido I've seen, in terms of flowing through transitions and responding to a fluid situation. Which is what martial arts are supposed to be about , right?
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Old 01-20-2015, 02:45 PM   #62
Nicholas Eschenbruch
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Re: Aikido as an actual Martial Art

Quote:
Tim Fong wrote: View Post
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WoQQlOEnSFI

I feel like this video offered some of the best aikido I've seen, in terms of flowing through transitions and responding to a fluid situation. Which is what martial arts are supposed to be about , right?
This is beautiful, thanks for posting! Could not quite find out who the guys were?
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Old 01-21-2015, 10:59 PM   #63
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Re: Aikido as an actual Martial Art

I couldn't either. The YouTube channel is the Shodokan aikido federation for Russia, I think.
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