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Old 09-01-2014, 06:39 PM   #301
RonRagusa
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Re: Demonstrating aiki, demontrating aikido.Same thing ?

Quote:
Carsten Möllering wrote: View Post
juji does not refer to physical axes but to the cross formed of heaven - earth and kan - li.
It has got nothing to with 90degree angles.
So Carsten, from what you have been posting lately it seems that are you saying that there are no analogs that one can map between the eastern classics that you study on the one hand and the physical sciences on the other. Am I correct or am I missing something here? I don't have an opinion one way or the other since my own study is involves looking in rather than out, but I'm interested in how you come to your conclusion.

Ron

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Old 09-01-2014, 11:29 PM   #302
kewms
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Re: Demonstrating aiki, demontrating aikido.Same thing ?

The various phenomenon described as "aiki" derive from the movement of physical structures and create movement in other physical structures. As such, they are at least theoretically measurable.

In practice, doing so would require that both uke and nage be wearing a wide array of sensors. It would be helpful to track brain waves, the movement of electrical signals through the nervous system, the tension/relaxation and acceleration of the musculature and fascia, and so forth. To the best of my knowledge, no such studies have actually been done. (Although links to any that exist would of course be welcome.)

But even if we did have such a concrete set of explanations, some would find traditional teaching metaphors more helpful, some would prefer Erick's approach, and some would fall somewhere in between.

And, ultimately, what matters is developing the ability to physically create these phenomena, not to write technical papers about them.

Katherine
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Old 09-02-2014, 07:01 AM   #303
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Re: Demonstrating aiki, demontrating aikido.Same thing ?

The cross that is formed by heaven-earth / kan-li exists only in the "early heaven" arrangement of the bagua, in the "late heaven" arrangement there is no such cross.

Here is another one:

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Old 09-02-2014, 07:23 AM   #304
Lee Salzman
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Re: Demonstrating aiki, demontrating aikido.Same thing ?

Quote:
Ron Ragusa wrote: View Post
So Carsten, from what you have been posting lately it seems that are you saying that there are no analogs that one can map between the eastern classics that you study on the one hand and the physical sciences on the other. Am I correct or am I missing something here? I don't have an opinion one way or the other since my own study is involves looking in rather than out, but I'm interested in how you come to your conclusion.

Ron
For consideration:

http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/attach...8&d=1201930190
(source: http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/showpo...&postcount=142)

See also:
http://www.aikidosangenkai.org/blog/...bridge-heaven/
http://www.aikidosangenkai.org/blog/...ha-aun-part-1/

Last edited by Lee Salzman : 09-02-2014 at 07:34 AM.
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Old 09-02-2014, 11:57 AM   #305
jonreading
 
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Re: Demonstrating aiki, demontrating aikido.Same thing ?

I think I have compared aikido words with Smurfinology before. If we take a word, aiki, and refuse to define it we are left with a word that has no meaning. Aiki has to stand for something, as Lee points out. Even if I am wrong in my definition it is a toehold for conversation, an opportunity to create a dialog about why I am wrong.

Sometimes we use aikido to deal with heavy things. We twist our training into something meaningful to us without regard for its actual meaning. That leaves use in a state of constant translation with minimal transmission opportunity. By transforming aikido into a pseudo-philosophical foundation, or a pseudo-religion, we imbue the art with traits that are hardened by personal confirmation and belief.

I think we all have some investment in clearly defining what we call aiki and relating our definition to others. To Lee's point, and central to my distinction, if you can show aiki in a variety of illustrations, why do we limit it to jujutsu?

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Old 09-02-2014, 12:19 PM   #306
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Re: Demonstrating aiki, demontrating aikido.Same thing ?

Quote:
Carsten Möllering wrote: View Post
juji does not refer to physical axes but to the cross formed of heaven - earth and kan - li.
It has got nothing to with 90degree angles.
Sorry, but it sure does-- and quite concretely, too.
Kan- Li 火 水 -- fire & water (Ka & Mi in Nihongo).

Fire, flows up -- Water flows down.

Fire 火 rises forming a line of tension/extension potential/action
Water 水 descends forming a line of compression/contraction potential/action

The cross of heaven (vertical axis) and earth (horizontal axis) forms the transverse plane (vertical, left-right). MAN (仁) forms the third axis, projecting from the center (toward and away from the viewer -- making the six directions, FWIW).

Man as (the kanji intimates: 仁) has two differently oriented relationships, one above and one below -- the relation of man with earth (forming the horizontal plane), and the relation of man with heaven forming the sagital plane (front-back (omote/ura)).

Water is the relation of man from heaven to earth, and fire the relation of man from earth to heaven.

These relations/forces of all three elements must traverse all three planes of their relationships equally. Right-angle action creates rotation or oscillation in all three axes -- which defines a spiral.

Water is the spiral line falling/contracting, in compression. Fire is the spiral line rising/extending, in tension.

On the horizontal plane they are seen as rotations in opposite directions (tenkan is the basic horizontal plane taiso). On the transverse and sagital planes they are seen as out-of-phase oscillations (sine curves or waves). Funetori is the basic sagital oscillation taiso. Tekubifuri and furitama are the basic transverse plane oscillation taiso.

Torsion on a body enables or exploits these opposite components (in-yo) of stress/force in spiral lines of stress at right angles to one another in a shear

Last edited by Erick Mead : 09-02-2014 at 12:23 PM.

Cordially,

Erick Mead
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Old 09-02-2014, 03:04 PM   #307
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Re: Demonstrating aiki, demontrating aikido.Same thing ?

Quote:
Katherine Derbyshire wrote: View Post
The various phenomenon described as "aiki" derive from the movement of physical structures and create movement in other physical structures. As such, they are at least theoretically measurable.

In practice, doing so would require that both uke and nage be wearing a wide array of sensors. It would be helpful to track brain waves, the movement of electrical signals through the nervous system, the tension/relaxation and acceleration of the musculature and fascia, and so forth. To the best of my knowledge, no such studies have actually been done. (Although links to any that exist would of course be welcome.)
Taiji has received some of this precise treatment -- to interesting result in this study. There was an accompanying video, I found again here here, and the accompanying Stanford news article on the study

There was some discussion on it in this thread:

Cordially,

Erick Mead
一隻狗可久里馬房但他也不是馬的.
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Old 09-02-2014, 05:02 PM   #308
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Re: Demonstrating aiki, demontrating aikido.Same thing ?

Quote:
Erick Mead wrote: View Post
Sorry, but it sure does-- and quite concretely, too.
Kan- Li 火 水 -- fire & water (Ka & Mi in Nihongo).

Fire, flows up -- Water flows down.

Fire 火 rises forming a line of tension/extension potential/action
Water 水 descends forming a line of compression/contraction potential/action

The cross of heaven (vertical axis) and earth (horizontal axis) forms the transverse plane (vertical, left-right). MAN (仁) forms the third axis, projecting from the center (toward and away from the viewer -- making the six directions, FWIW).

Man as (the kanji intimates: 仁) has two differently oriented relationships, one above and one below -- the relation of man with earth (forming the horizontal plane), and the relation of man with heaven forming the sagital plane (front-back (omote/ura)).

Water is the relation of man from heaven to earth, and fire the relation of man from earth to heaven.

These relations/forces of all three elements must traverse all three planes of their relationships equally. Right-angle action creates rotation or oscillation in all three axes -- which defines a spiral.

Water is the spiral line falling/contracting, in compression. Fire is the spiral line rising/extending, in tension.

On the horizontal plane they are seen as rotations in opposite directions (tenkan is the basic horizontal plane taiso). On the transverse and sagital planes they are seen as out-of-phase oscillations (sine curves or waves). Funetori is the basic sagital oscillation taiso. Tekubifuri and furitama are the basic transverse plane oscillation taiso.

Torsion on a body enables or exploits these opposite components (in-yo) of stress/force in spiral lines of stress at right angles to one another in a shear
To be clear, this is wonkery of a level that exceeds the mission of this thread, which I was under the impression was to just ascertain if aiki is a separate thing from aikido, that can be demonstrated without needing to use aikido to do that.

But there are things at the level of talking shop laid out here I would like to address, because they are put forth as absolutes that some might take issue with. Bluntly, I think you're overshooting the mark, and you'll get less out of your model in application because of it. Take it down a notch, as in make it stupid simpler, and the model becomes more profound in how you can apply it.

If we refer back to this diagram and Chris Li's article on the Floating Bridge of Heaven, heaven and earth need not be thought of as axes, and are best thought of as polarity, just like fire and water, and man is what joins them, the center, void, attraction. In the diagram, the two X cross-lines in the diagram, if you want to assign fixed relationships, become fire and water respectively, and heaven and earth more profoundly operate on the central axis running there. And well, the power of heaven and power of earth can also be simultaneously interpreted as just that if it floats your boat, gravity and reaction force. But it is somewhat self-limiting in my view to tie yourself down to that. Your interpretations of fire and water, though, and their application to a spiral I don't find grievous fault with.

But locking yourself in to thinking of them as planes and axes? Locking yourself into specific numbers of degrees and angles? I just don't see the utility in practice.

Oh, and man? Thinking of man as just one more geometric concept is just... wow. Man is so much more. Man is the thing that joins it all together, encompassing both mind and body. Where is the mind, thinking of it giving rise to ki or other phenomenon if you wish, even mentioned in passing in this account, without which none of these forces can be manifested at your disposal at all?

Heaven and earth can be thought of as operating anywhere, any time, even at a single point. Hence all the talk of yin and yang. You emphatically do not need a spiral or a cross to utilize this model for martial effect. You do not even need to be moving. All you need is a single point, making a simple rotation balanced by the two opposing forces acting on it. And even before rotation, just having opposing forces at all acting at any point already forms the floating bridge of heaven much talked about, which could also be called center or "one point" and leading to the immovable body.

In the limit, it can become spirals, but some of the most profound uses in application are far simpler and far harder to train into the body. For example, the immovable arm demonstration can either be just nothing more than a simple parlor trick or it can be a weapon, as an expression of whole body immovability everywhere in all movements, depending on how you build it into your training. And just the simple expression of rotation, upon a trained immovable body can floor people or cast them out. No PhD in MechE required, just a willingness to stubbornly practice and not overthink it.

Really, use can be as simple as: see diagram here. You might be formalizing yourself into a self-limiting box.

Last edited by Lee Salzman : 09-02-2014 at 05:16 PM.
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Old 09-02-2014, 07:01 PM   #309
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Re: Demonstrating aiki, demontrating aikido.Same thing ?

Quote:
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Taiji has received some of this precise treatment -- to interesting result in this study. There was an accompanying video, I found again here here, and the accompanying Stanford news article on the study

There was some discussion on it in this thread:
Very interesting. Thanks for the links. -- Katherine
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Old 09-02-2014, 09:41 PM   #310
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Re: Demonstrating aiki, demontrating aikido.Same thing ?

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Lee Salzman wrote: View Post
Bluntly, I think you're overshooting the mark, and you'll get less out of your model in application because of it. ...
...heaven and earth need not be thought of as axes, and are best thought of as polarity...
Polarity is less concretely applicable, much more abstract to relate to actual practice.

Quote:
Your interpretations of fire and water, though, and their application to a spiral I don't find grievous fault with. ... But locking yourself in to thinking of them as planes and axes? Locking yourself into specific numbers of degrees and angles? I just don't see the utility in practice.
I am not locking anything in ... A strict rule in the dojo -- no protractors on the mat... weapons practice is segregated ... Besides you know when you have the juuji line -- you can feel it instantly.

The forms of action/potential can be on any given axis -- and the spirals a have physical reality -- they relate tension and compression at right angles in a torsional shear.

The point of relating all that was simply to show that the old man Ueshiba -- whose scheme of reference was not Western or mechanical -- nevertheless mapped his imagery onto the same concrete relationships and the same forms of dynamics and statics .

I, for one, could care less whether we call it the intersection of fire and water -- or torsional shear -- or bloody quaternions for all I care --as long as we have something that is objectively clear we are talking about and can demonstrate its use for ourselves and to improve the use of others. History shows almost no other mode of physical description has this consistent virtue.

We did this tonight in class, for FWIW, so I'll kindly refrain from doubting its utility since it is actually useful -- I used it. Specifically, we went over the uses of each plane of action/potential, the relevant taiso and typical waza that train them in interactive forms.

No one needed a protractor -- I swear...

And as to the thread topic we did all this in basically standing kokyu tanden ho without a single waza. But clearly relating the action to the taiso and numerous waza that have related forms of action/potential in that plane or planes of action. Was that demonstrating aiki or aikido ? -- -- Mostly that question that seems semantic to me .

Last edited by Erick Mead : 09-02-2014 at 09:46 PM.

Cordially,

Erick Mead
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Old 09-02-2014, 10:20 PM   #311
RonRagusa
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Re: Demonstrating aiki, demontrating aikido.Same thing ?

Aiki is a state of being. It is a state I can achieve via training. Anything I do in that state is a demonstration of Aiki. The outer form is irrelevant. To call the thing being done Aiki is to confuse the state with the medium employed to express it (the state).

Ron

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Old 09-03-2014, 06:25 AM   #312
Lee Salzman
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Re: Demonstrating aiki, demontrating aikido.Same thing ?

Quote:
Erick Mead wrote: View Post
Polarity is less concretely applicable, much more abstract to relate to actual practice.
There are so many basic applications of the principle of opposing forces at the point of contact that it is mind-boggling you can get so much from conceptually so little.

Again, see this diagram of basic application of rotation, which shows one way of accomplishing aiki-age. At a minimum, what is labeled the "support point" there is the immovable body, the center, created by expressing your intent as opposing forces, the joining of the two kis, heaven and earth, fire and water.

In practice that is being resilient to locks and throws and being able to strike with various parts of the body as if they were the entire body, you become one giant center. Ridiculously applicable.

Put that in rotation, like shown there, and suddenly the center is harder to access, but the power of that center still finds its way into things at tangents to where the incoming forces are acting. Application of that are seemingly limitless, from basic pinning and uprooting all the way up to spirals with torsional shear. But at bottom, this comes from the simple practice of being grabbed and not disturbing the point of contact, which also has a high degree of utility just by itself. All that from thinking in two places instead of one.

How do you not disturb the point of contact? By balancing forces at the point of contact, by application of opposing forces. So train the body to do that everywhere all the time, and what happens in situations with unpredictable forces on the body? Spiral movement falls out of this, but yet you don't have a definitive shape or pattern of moving. Yet you no longer conflict with someone in your movements, whether they are defensive or offensive in nature.

But a person can't walk into the dojo on day 1 with a body ready to do this. Before the body can employ opposing forces in movement it has to be able to do opposing forces just standing still. Most people don't even try to even train for that, so doing the manipulations above it, especially waza, is a pipe dream. This is why I said I think you're overshooting the mark, because the importance of "man" seems not accounted for. It is where the hard work of anything to happen at all is.

Quote:
Erick Mead wrote:
I am not locking anything in ... A strict rule in the dojo -- no protractors on the mat... weapons practice is segregated ... Besides you know when you have the juuji line -- you can feel it instantly.

The forms of action/potential can be on any given axis -- and the spirals a have physical reality -- they relate tension and compression at right angles in a torsional shear.

The point of relating all that was simply to show that the old man Ueshiba -- whose scheme of reference was not Western or mechanical -- nevertheless mapped his imagery onto the same concrete relationships and the same forms of dynamics and statics .

I, for one, could care less whether we call it the intersection of fire and water -- or torsional shear -- or bloody quaternions for all I care --as long as we have something that is objectively clear we are talking about and can demonstrate its use for ourselves and to improve the use of others. History shows almost no other mode of physical description has this consistent virtue.

We did this tonight in class, for FWIW, so I'll kindly refrain from doubting its utility since it is actually useful -- I used it. Specifically, we went over the uses of each plane of action/potential, the relevant taiso and typical waza that train them in interactive forms.

No one needed a protractor -- I swear...

And as to the thread topic we did all this in basically standing kokyu tanden ho without a single waza. But clearly relating the action to the taiso and numerous waza that have related forms of action/potential in that plane or planes of action. Was that demonstrating aiki or aikido ? -- -- Mostly that question that seems semantic to me .
It's not just semantics. We have precursor arts such as Daito-ryu claiming usage of aiki, while not subscribing to the particular Aikido "budo is love" interpretation or Morihei Ueshiba's background in Omoto-kyo. Their waza have specific differences in how they cut people down and break them apart versus Aikido's cast them out. It would hint that the application of aiki is different from the basic phenomenon. That just by the practice of Aikido techniques, you are not necessarily practicing aiki, but that Aikido techniques can serve as a particular application of aiki within the limits of Aikido's guiding philosophy.

But let me be clear, regardless of whether or not I agree/disagree with you on specifics, I respect the amount of thought you put in to what you do and the effort you apply to explaining it. Beyond that, I think we'd have to meet before I can get a greater lock on what you are doing for comparison. Maybe one day.

Quote:
Ron Ragusa wrote: View Post
Aiki is a state of being. It is a state I can achieve via training. Anything I do in that state is a demonstration of Aiki. The outer form is irrelevant. To call the thing being done Aiki is to confuse the state with the medium employed to express it (the state).

Ron
As a contrast, we could suppose: Tennis is a state of being. It is a state that can be achieved through training. Anything one does in that state is a demonstration of Tennis. The outer form is irrelevant. To call the thing being done Tennis is to confuse the state with the medium employed to express it (the state).

Tennis has rules and training methods to internalize those rules. At some level expert players might internalize the rules so well that if we're trying to point out examples of what tennis is, we point at them. But they're still examples of what started as a rule set. Yeah, yeah, "finger pointing at the moon" and all that, but you may as well expect a building to come into existence without scaffolding. You have to get there via a process, and the process matters.

If we just point at the player and say, "steal his tennis", expecting all learning to happen via osmosis... How's that working out? It turns tennis into a semi-religious faith where ability has become voodoo, worshiped but how exactly it is gained is not understood and can't be reliably worked at by anyone. There's no exact accounting for talent, but talent without development is still worth about nothing.

You might object to the metaphor, that tennis is not like Aikido, but then why does Aikido have a specific appearance defined by its waza, and why are people wont to make the determination of whether something is Aikido based on that waza? Aikido would appear to have a form and that form is significant to the determination of what is or is not Aikido. If you don't like competitive sports, then replace tennis with running or sky-diving.

We can't divorce aiki from the models we use to understand it or the means by which we train it. Well, we can, but I don't so much like the result of doing that, which is faith-based martial arts.

As this relates back to aiki vs. Aikido, depending on how you define aiki, there can be processes for developing aiki as separate from its expression in Aikido, which can be applied back to Aikido. Or you could just as well say that Aikido is the only process for producing the phenomenon of aiki and aiki is the result of that process, but then that leaves you in a conundrum with other martial arts that claim to utilize aiki, or ones that don't claim to but can be seen to do so, and are not Aikido.

Last edited by Lee Salzman : 09-03-2014 at 06:32 AM.
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Old 09-03-2014, 09:56 AM   #313
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Re: Demonstrating aiki, demontrating aikido.Same thing ?

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No one needed a protractor -- I swear...
protractor is useless. same goes for slide rule. compass on the other hand is quite usefull especially the pointy end which you can use to poke the other person.

"budo is putting on cold, wet, sweat stained gi with a smile and a snarl" - your truly
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Old 09-03-2014, 10:12 AM   #314
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Re: Demonstrating aiki, demontrating aikido.Same thing ?

not tennis. it's golf. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OnDiy8I_rPo
now that's aiki! or maybe the quantum entanglement affect.

"budo is putting on cold, wet, sweat stained gi with a smile and a snarl" - your truly
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Old 09-03-2014, 11:24 AM   #315
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Re: Demonstrating aiki, demontrating aikido.Same thing ?

Quote:
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There are so many basic applications of the principle of opposing forces at the point of contact that it is mind-boggling you can get so much from conceptually so little.
I'll quibble here... because the forces in the sense of aiki are opposite --- but not opposed. That is to say they do not counteract one another even though opposite in sign -- because they are offset 90 degrees from one another. They powerfully interact -- but not in force vs. force sense. It is a stress field that permeates the whole structure when applied in ways that bending stress applied in leverage does not and cannot exhibit.

The simplest illustration is a bed sheet -- bend it and the action is wholly confined to the point of bending. It's too loose and dangly. You can't compress it usefully. Tension, I'll deal with below.

Ah, but twist it and interesting things happen. Lay it out on flat on the floor. If you try to just lift it a bit from the center the lifting is mostly local -- and only a little displacement is seen at the edges. Now stand in the center and turn a quarter turn with your feet flat. The whole sheet is torqued from center to edge in characteristic spiral forms -- and ridges of spontaneous action appear where the sheet simply folds and lifts itself off the floor -- along those lines of spiral action. That is aiki.

Similarly, with a partner, gather the sheet into one long bundle and begin to twist it from both ends. It will become shorter and tighter and stiffer and stiffer, and soon will actually bear some compression between you. Torsion altered the apparent linear mechanical behavior of the material.

If you go beyond a critical amount of twist, it will begin spontaneously folding upon itself in the middle, and begin forming a second level of twist of the whole thing around itself. This is also aiki-- seen in sankyo and shihonage, most particularly.

The difference from the bedsheet is that the human body is not nearly as free to twist, and so has a much lower threshold of critical twist where it spontaneously folds and twists upon itself. These are but some rudimentary, commonplace and illustrative guides to the torsion field action principle in play, in and out of aikido proper.

You can tension the bed sheet, also. But to use it dynamically in tension -- you have to follow certain specific spiral paths (like a bullfighter's cape). (I used to do this with beach towels as a kid -- helped if they were damp.) It will hold itsefl in smooth plane curve -- IF, and only if -- you are following the correct lines. Those curves are extensions outside the body of the same spirals in the body in the torsional stress field. This is the change from potential energy in the structure to actual kinetic action of the structure -- but the same mathematical and geometric forms.

When deployed in that spiral, pendular form of movement these forms have a name - Lissajous curves. If you cannot see the dynamic paths of aikido waza in those curves you aren't looking at them. They are -- and mathematically speaking, in a very rigorous sense -- one and the same principles as for the internal torsional stress statics manipulations (which is what I see as the mechanical principles of IP/IS, and thus of aiki). One system -- static and dynamic --that reaches, forms and alters the response of all parts of any structure in connection with it.

Quote:
Again, see this diagram of basic application of rotation, which shows one way of accomplishing aiki-age. At a minimum, what is labeled the "support point" there is the immovable body, the center, created by expressing your intent as opposing forces, the joining of the two kis, heaven and earth, fire and water.
That diagram is not physically correct, though I see your point drawn from it. the point of connection it depicts as a fulcrum, suggesting that aiki is a leverage -- and nothing could be farther from the truth. A lever is the application of opposed forces removed at a distance creating a moment arm as mechanical advantage. The reason why that diagram is incorrect is that past the point of the fulcrum there is no direct engagement with the opponent's structure to allow the actual levered lift. It is the loosest of physical analogies.

There something that provides that engagement into the opponents structure -- but it is not direct in the sense of a lever arm at the point of connection, as in your diagram. It is not and cannot operate as leverage operates. I can't draw it out here -- but suffice to say that in the sagital (fore-aft) plane the spirals appear in profile as differing phase sine curves. Isolated to that one plane of action they also act as sine curves and the stress form becomes the action. If the up-phase is used -- aiki-age results. If the down- phase is used -- this is aiki-sage. Funetori trains this, specifically, FWIW.

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In practice that is being resilient to locks and throws and being able to strike with various parts of the body as if they were the entire body, you become one giant center. Ridiculously applicable.
I quite agree. The "why" of it, though, -- that is the thing that broadens the imagination to see other possibilities of application you have never been shown, that simply appear and you go "Oh!. Look at that!". Ueshiba's Takemusu Aiki -- with techniques appearing as though from divine sources. In reality, schooling your physical intuition into indirect or stress field action allows you to steadily expand your understanding to the more and more remote structural connections to that manner of action.

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Put that in rotation, like shown there, and suddenly the center is harder to access, but the power of that center still finds its way into things at tangents to where the incoming forces are acting.
Tangents are very important. above, I see the progression from big movement tangential force management down to small and then internal tangential stress management (i.e. -- surface torsional shear). Do I criticize the revers progression ? -- Not at all. They are either end of a spectrum. Both modes have application in any fully realized art.

Quote:
[DTR] waza have specific differences in how they cut people down and break them apart versus Aikido's cast them out.
It would hint that the application of aiki is different from the basic phenomenon. That just by the practice of Aikido techniques, you are not necessarily practicing aiki, but that Aikido techniques can serve as a particular application of aiki within the limits of Aikido's guiding philosophy.
I think aikido is not merely "cast them out." I think it begins this way -- allowing practice to be BIG ( and slower)-- so that the forms can be seen. Paraphrasing Ikeda -- then big becomes small -- and power becomes great, then small vanishes, and power becomes infinite (practically speaking, merely VERY large). As with a spinning skater, angular velocity is inversely proportional to radius of spin. A similar relationship holds statically for torque and the radius in which you reduce the torsional stress field (like twisting tightens and reduces the radius of the bedsheet) -- which is actually precisely the reverse of the power principle of leverage -- where more power requires a longer radius lever arm to apply.

Last edited by Erick Mead : 09-03-2014 at 11:31 AM.

Cordially,

Erick Mead
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Old 09-03-2014, 11:32 AM   #316
Erick Mead
 
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Re: Demonstrating aiki, demontrating aikido.Same thing ?

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Phi Truong wrote: View Post
protractor is useless. same goes for slide rule. compass on the other hand is quite usefull especially the pointy end which you can use to poke the other person.
"Poke 'em with the pointy end ."

I've read this somewhere. I am sure of it ...

Cordially,

Erick Mead
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Old 09-03-2014, 11:33 AM   #317
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Re: Demonstrating aiki, demontrating aikido.Same thing ?

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Phi Truong wrote: View Post
not tennis. it's golf. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OnDiy8I_rPo
now that's aiki! or maybe the quantum entanglement affect.
Not golf. That's the Black Arts, that is...

Cordially,

Erick Mead
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Old 09-03-2014, 11:58 AM   #318
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Re: Demonstrating aiki, demontrating aikido.Same thing ?

Can aiki be defined simply as the balancing of opposing forces/qualities in and around the self?
What did Mochizuki Sensei mean by suggesting aiki can be applied to the use of things like artillery insofar as "... through it we can feel the mind of the enemy who comes to attack and are thus able to respond immediately"? http://www.aikidojournal.com/article.php?articleID=369

If through aiki we can sense the mind of our attacker while operating artillery, something I assume happens over a fairly great distance, then why not apply it in the tracking of other complex things with a similar goal of affecting a definite and positive change (i.e. through the dynamic balancing of otherwise apparently opposing aspects)?

Gambarimashyo!
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Old 09-03-2014, 12:04 PM   #319
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Re: Demonstrating aiki, demontrating aikido.Same thing ?

First, I swear there's aiki in golf.

Second, if we concede aiki is a state of being (not a manifest action), I have the following questions:
1. If aiki is a state of being, then what energies unite to give meaning to the definition? If I am scrambling eggs in a state of aiki, am I unifying with the energy of the eggs? Is it the unification of energy within me? Why do we need partners to train, if aiki is about my state of being?
2. If one can perform any action while in the state of being (aiki), why do we not demonstrate aiki in everything we do? In other words, what's the difference between a giver and a cheerful giver, if the action does not describe the act? What about tying a shoe? What about pushing on some one? What about being pushed?
3. What are demonstrative illustrations of when we are in the state of aiki? If aiki is a state of being, is it possible to perform kata while not in the state of aiki? Is that technique still called "aikido". What do you call some one would is constantly in the state of being, even if he does not practice aikido?

I am pretty sure Lee covered this, but in conceding aiki is a state, we also differentiate aiki as separate from aikido (an expression of aiki via action). The giver versus the happy giver, the differentiation being the state in which the act was committed. Back to separating aiki from aikido...

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Old 09-03-2014, 12:58 PM   #320
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Re: Demonstrating aiki, demontrating aikido.Same thing ?

When I write of Aiki as a state of being I mean:

"Aiki, in me, before Aiki between thee and me." - Dan Harden

Aiki in me is a state of being.

Ron

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Old 09-03-2014, 01:09 PM   #321
Keith Larman
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Re: Demonstrating aiki, demontrating aikido.Same thing ?

Steps for proper discussion of topic.

Step 1: Define your terms using precise and clear language everyone can agree upon.

Step 2: Huh? What? We can't move on yet?

Oh... Can't just skip that step 1.

Darn.

So what do you do if most folk in a discussion cannot define their terms in any sort of coherent fashion for themselves? Let alone come up with a mutually acceptable definition.

To me, in modern time, the word "Aiki" as used in the martial arts has become what I think it was Wittgenstein terms "nonsense". Not nonsense in the sense of "absurdity of behavior" but nonsense in the strictest of meanings. Lacking sense. Lacking meaning. Empty. Devoid of content.

As I've said before, this "nonsense" of meaning for aiki (and aikido for that matter) is both Aikido's greatest weakness as well as its greatest strength today. As is apparent in this thread it can mean most anything to some people as long as it does what the person speaking wants it to do for them (as vague as that sounds, that appears to be about right). It can be made a spiritual quest, a meditative exercise, a philosophical ideal, and an ethical mandate. One size fits all. Great for love, peace and understanding. It's no wonder it took off in Hawaii and the California Coast back in the late 50's through the 60's and 70's.

It seems to me Kisshomaru emphasized these things in an attempt to help Aikido spread in popularity. It seems to me Tohei also allowed some of that loose, fluffy, woo-woo stuff permeate what he was doing all while still knocking folk around pretty darned good. And those I know who trained with Tohei in his prime all told me the same thing -- a powerful, short man, who could be soft and yet you felt like someone just set a pallet of bricks on you. And it could be done gently. Or not.

But I digress. Aiki is like the Rohrschach of the martial arts. "What do you see in this image? Tell me more about your mother...."

All that said, there are those looking for particular instantiations of what they thought was powering the arts of Ueshiba (and Takeda (and lest we forget many others!) before him). And you see examples here in this thread. All looking through their rose-tinted lenses of what time period/aspect/theory they choose to believe.

And yet... When I go to seminars there are only a few folk on the mat. Some I see over and over and some of those don't seem to be changing. Some do, some progress quickly. Many of the loudest on-line are never to be seen elsewhere. Some are obviously too busy with their own gigs, teaching their stuff, and lord knows I understand that.

Me, I think I've read way too much philosophy and science to feel comfortable just chatting. And it seems that those rose tinted glasses are becoming increasingly opaque for many, and I wonder if that means mine are becoming the same.

So, to the original question, I think aiki *starts* as a coordination of mind and body at a very deep level (sound familiar?). But it is a specific coordination that is active, engaged and directed. And easily screwed up. And requires practice and training to learn to do consistently and under pressure. I think many of the "branches" of Aikido formed due to their head Sufi story teller touching their own specific spot on the elephant. Hence the all have a perspective on the bigger picture. And all over time develop some of it. But maybe seeing it through the touch of the other blind guys touching elephant is a good idea, at least for me.

And talking about it on-line when people can't even remotely get past Step 1 above... Not so helpful.

"Demonstrating" aiki, at least IMHO, does not require Aikido to occur. Nor does it make the demonstration "aikido". I think it is a necessary body/mental skill that must be developed. And that when it is integrated in to waza with a specific intention, purpose and attitude, it becomes Aikido, at least loosely defined.

So making tea mindfully is not aikido to me. It might be "aiki" depending on how you do it, but it seems almost a trivial example. And frankly all the meditative things people like to explain strike me as the least "truly" aiki things when you drill down in to it in this way. The "avoiding traffic and confrontation" examples strike me as side-effects of the aiki used well, and not the aiki itself. Which means aiki to me is very different from and has a distinctly different ontological status from the sort of "blendy, love" definition. That, imho, is confusing the effect with the underlying causes. You can approximate the effects without the underlying causes. And let us not forget how many have warned us to never confuse the omote with the ura.

That's enough stream of consciousness from me. I've added as much as I can. I have no more for here, only what I try to instantiate in person.

That will have to do.

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Old 09-03-2014, 01:28 PM   #322
Erick Mead
 
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Re: Demonstrating aiki, demontrating aikido.Same thing ?

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Ron Ragusa wrote: View Post
When I write of Aiki as a state of being I mean:

"Aiki, in me, before Aiki between thee and me."
This resolves to a circular definition: Aiki(being) = Aiki(me) > Aiki(thee-me).

Definition of a term in terms of itself, and similar figures of argument are recurring problems in these discussions.

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Ron Ragusa wrote: View Post
Aiki is a state of being. It is a state I can achieve via training. Anything I do in that state is a demonstration of Aiki. The outer form is irrelevant. To call the thing being done Aiki is to confuse the state with the medium employed to express it (the state).
A state of being is something that simply is unless you alter or destroy it.

I may loosely say that "I am airborne." But flying is not a state of my being -- it is a state of my doing. To give credit to the present criticisms of aikido -- there is much in the practice of the art that analogously assumes a temporarily ballistic path is the same as flying. That is an assumption with a sudden and violent rebuttal in its not-too-distant future.

Aiki is not "being." It is doing. That it must be done in oneself is not disputed. The me > thee+me is a proposition about the best order of learning what it is that must be done. That is certainly a debatable point -- though based on collective experience, I would certainly agree that it is an emphasis that needs to have greater prominence for mere re-balancing if nothing else. I would not agree that it is exclusively so, though -- and probably as variable in effectiveness as the variability of learning styles.

Last edited by Erick Mead : 09-03-2014 at 01:32 PM.

Cordially,

Erick Mead
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Old 09-03-2014, 01:46 PM   #323
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Re: Demonstrating aiki, demontrating aikido.Same thing ?

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2. If one can perform any action while in the state of being (aiki), why do we not demonstrate aiki in everything we do?
I believe Saotome Sensei, for example, would say that he *does* demonstrate aiki in everything he does.

Similarly, one proposed technical basis for achieving kuzushi on contact is that uke is making contact with a pre-existing "aiki" state, and is swept along by it.

Katherine
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Old 09-03-2014, 01:51 PM   #324
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Re: Demonstrating aiki, demontrating aikido.Same thing ?

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Erick Mead wrote: View Post
Aiki is not "being." It is doing. That it must be done in oneself is not disputed.
Well, my heart is actively "doing" every moment that I am alive. But "alive" is a state of being.

Similarly, for a sufficiently advanced practitioner, the actions needed to create "aikiness" take place continually and below the level of conscious thought.

Katherine
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Old 09-03-2014, 02:18 PM   #325
Gerardo Torres
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Re: Demonstrating aiki, demontrating aikido.Same thing ?

Those who bow to pictures of Takeda or Ueshiba in class might not want to lose track of the fact that the "aiki" that these two men propounded made them stand out in a martial context: they felt different, and were more powerful and eerily effective than any other guy in the room. Furthermore whatever "aiki" model they followed allowed them to create students of similar skills (i.e. transmission). They didn't exactly become famous for their ability to merely philosophize and theorize about "aiki" at random.
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