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Old 08-07-2014, 11:43 AM   #151
kewms
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Re: Demonstrating aiki, demontrating aikido.Same thing ?

I'm an engineer and a writer. Very precise, mechanistic language absolutely has a place.

As I've said before, though, I'm not sure how pedagogically useful it is. Even assuming Erick's description is accurate in all respects (of which I'm not convinced), I'm not sure that telling someone to inhibit contraction of antagonist muscles is more helpful than telling them to run energy along their own tegatana. In application, any martial art is necessarily intuitive, and so one goal of training is to develop reliable physical intuition.

Not just martial arts, either. Engineering professors miss the days when most of their students spent their teenage years working on cars. Athletic coaches prefer to coach people who spent childhood playing outside. Mechanistic descriptions are important in building a rigorous, testable model -- very useful if you're making a bridge -- but intuition is how you know which models might be worth building.

Katherine
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Old 08-07-2014, 11:59 AM   #152
Keith Larman
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Re: Demonstrating aiki, demontrating aikido.Same thing ?

Quote:
Katherine Derbyshire wrote: View Post
I'm an engineer and a writer. Very precise, mechanistic language absolutely has a place.

As I've said before, though, I'm not sure how pedagogically useful it is. Even assuming Erick's description is accurate in all respects (of which I'm not convinced), I'm not sure that telling someone to inhibit contraction of antagonist muscles is more helpful than telling them to run energy along their own tegatana. In application, any martial art is necessarily intuitive, and so one goal of training is to develop reliable physical intuition.

Not just martial arts, either. Engineering professors miss the days when most of their students spent their teenage years working on cars. Athletic coaches prefer to coach people who spent childhood playing outside. Mechanistic descriptions are important in building a rigorous, testable model -- very useful if you're making a bridge -- but intuition is how you know which models might be worth building.

Katherine
Oh, you won't get an argument from me on that aspect. For the longest time I wore a t-shirt that said "More mat, less chat."

However... Many of those esoteric concepts from long ago are based on entire world views and theories that themselves are suspect in many ways. And as such they allow many to go off in all sorts of directions. To use a rather mundane example, I was sitting on a test board listening to an enthusiastic student ramble on about the meaning of saying "Onegaishimasu". He talked about how it meant "let's train together, let's share out bodies, let's learn together" and so forth. I swear I was wondering how many bowls he'd smoked before I finally interrupted and pointed out that it's *literal* definition was rather, well, boring. "If you will" or something along those lines. Meaning all that extra stuff he was talking about was great and all. And certainly in conext of the use in the dojo there is some degree of that meaning being attached since *in context* that's how it is being used as a part of reigi. That said this guy truly thought it quite literally meant all these things in a strict sense. Later on after a class he went on to explain to me how it was so cool that the kanji for Ai in Aikido also means love. I kept trying to tell him that no, in fact it doesn't, but he was adamant. He was unaware of how there are many different kanji pronounced "ai" with varied meanings and that the kanji for the ai of Aikido is different from the kanji for "ai" in love.

My point here is that with all areas of study have vocabularies that evolve over time as understanding grows. So any physicist trying to explain something using the concept of the so-called "ether wind" is either working 150 years ago *or* is horribly out of date. And the ether wind *was* the best explanation at the time. It turned out some details were missing and Einstein managed to explain how to do away with it and provided a vastly more useful framework to explain what was going on.

With respect to some of the aspects of what we're doing, guys like Dan, Toby, Mike, Ark, Kuroda, et al would not be having the success in teaching and transmission if they weren't further explicating what their "old world" words mean in a more fleshed out manner. And then high ranking folk like Gleason, Ledyard, and quite a few folk I know quite well that fly in under the radar wouldn't be sitting in those seminars and using that to help them learn to better transmit what it is they may have already been doing, albeit at a less fleshed out level. And to watch people make huge leaps in ability once a different approach is tried is a testament to the increased clarity.

No, I don't think Erick here is anywhere near what's going on. But I appreciate the effort and I appreciate that he's trying to come up with a systematic approach. And I also think that the appearance of rigor and the appearance of "scientific" can also be deceiving, giving a false sense of authority. But when someone can come over, shift my hips and then explain in more concrete terms what's happening inside my body *and* it lines up with the sensations I feel at the time, it makes it easier for me to do it again and hopefully pass it along to the next person.

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Old 08-07-2014, 12:07 PM   #153
Keith Larman
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Re: Demonstrating aiki, demontrating aikido.Same thing ?

And... If we presume that the theories presented by some of these people are correct as to the body development aspect underlying all of this, then using terms like "relax" or "feel the ki in your fingertips", or "blend with them" are incredibly insufficient for those who haven't had the decades of training to develop the body necessary to actually have something to pin those words on. But if we can more directly train the body, build the structures, enliven the passageways across longer reaches, then the sooner the student can attach those less prosaic ideas to the feeling they have. But it all then begs the question whether the more esoteric descriptions were really necessary to begin with. Or if we're just infusing it with all sorts of wonder philosophical meaning to satisfy our own desires for it to be more deep, more mysterious, more magical and further increasing how special it is to have it.

I honestly don't have time to waste. I've spent enough decades already trying to figure things out. And when I run in to stuff that allows me to look back over a ton of things said to me and suddenly see them in different and clearer ways, well, I ask myself why I'm not making it clearer to those I"m teaching now. It's not you guys here I'm worried about. There's enough "we've got it already" here and surely no shortage of deep conversation. I'm worried about helping the teenage girl I outweigh by 100 pounds who can toss me on my butt even better. And hoping she'll in turn find it easier to communicate the same thing to those she hopefully ends up teaching herself.

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Old 08-07-2014, 12:37 PM   #154
RonRagusa
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Re: Demonstrating aiki, demontrating aikido.Same thing ?

Quote:
Keith Larman wrote: View Post
And... If we presume that the theories presented by some of these people are correct as to the body development aspect underlying all of this, then using terms like "relax" or "feel the ki in your fingertips", or "blend with them" are incredibly insufficient for those who haven't had the decades of training to develop the body necessary to actually have something to pin those words on.
Well... I have those decades of training and when I hear those phrases I can easily relate them to what I'm feeling. That said, I quite agree with you that for someone without a solid background of training, descriptive phrases be they esoteric, mechanistic or mystically based can only provide a platform to build on.

Quote:
Keith Larman wrote: View Post
But if we can more directly train the body, build the structures, enliven the passageways across longer reaches, then the sooner the student can attach those less prosaic ideas to the feeling they have. But it all then begs the question whether the more esoteric descriptions were really necessary to begin with.
I don't understand why people think the Aikido training syllabus (at least as I learned it) doesn't contain the required implements to "train the body, build the structures, enliven the passageways across longer reaches...". My training, from the very beginning, emphasized those very qualities, although using different descriptive terminology. The descriptions, I think, are necessary simply because beginning students seem to crave verbal explanation to back up and give meaning to what they're doing.

Quote:
Keith Larman wrote: View Post
Or if we're just infusing it with all sorts of wonder philosophical meaning to satisfy our own desires for it to be more deep, more mysterious, more magical and further increasing how special it is to have it.
On a singularly personal level, it is deep, mysterious, magical and special. But that's not how it was presented to me and not a message I try to convey when I teach. I leave it up to each student to discover for him/her self the depth, mystery and magic of Aikido... or not.

Ron

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Old 08-07-2014, 02:17 PM   #155
kewms
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Re: Demonstrating aiki, demontrating aikido.Same thing ?

Quote:
Keith Larman wrote: View Post
To use a rather mundane example, I was sitting on a test board listening to an enthusiastic student ramble on about the meaning of saying "Onegaishimasu". He talked about how it meant "let's train together, let's share out bodies, let's learn together" and so forth. I swear I was wondering how many bowls he'd smoked before I finally interrupted and pointed out that it's *literal* definition was rather, well, boring. "If you will" or something along those lines. Meaning all that extra stuff he was talking about was great and all. And certainly in conext of the use in the dojo there is some degree of that meaning being attached since *in context* that's how it is being used as a part of reigi. That said this guy truly thought it quite literally meant all these things in a strict sense. Later on after a class he went on to explain to me how it was so cool that the kanji for Ai in Aikido also means love. I kept trying to tell him that no, in fact it doesn't, but he was adamant. He was unaware of how there are many different kanji pronounced "ai" with varied meanings and that the kanji for the ai of Aikido is different from the kanji for "ai" in love.
Ugh. Trying to argue about subtleties of meaning in a language that you don't speak is a really great way to publicly embarrass yourself...

I don't think being a Japanophile is necessary if you're going to study Japanese martial arts, but hearing a waitress saying "saba maki onegaishimasu" to the sushi chef does provide a useful counterpoint to excessive romanticism.

Quote:
With respect to some of the aspects of what we're doing, guys like Dan, Toby, Mike, Ark, Kuroda, et al would not be having the success in teaching and transmission if they weren't further explicating what their "old world" words mean in a more fleshed out manner. And then high ranking folk like Gleason, Ledyard, and quite a few folk I know quite well that fly in under the radar wouldn't be sitting in those seminars and using that to help them learn to better transmit what it is they may have already been doing, albeit at a less fleshed out level. And to watch people make huge leaps in ability once a different approach is tried is a testament to the increased clarity.

No, I don't think Erick here is anywhere near what's going on. But I appreciate the effort and I appreciate that he's trying to come up with a systematic approach. And I also think that the appearance of rigor and the appearance of "scientific" can also be deceiving, giving a false sense of authority. But when someone can come over, shift my hips and then explain in more concrete terms what's happening inside my body *and* it lines up with the sensations I feel at the time, it makes it easier for me to do it again and hopefully pass it along to the next person.
Definitely agree on both points. Finding the balance between mechanistic explanation, intuitive teaching metaphors, and simply getting out of the way so students can train is much harder than I think most non-teachers realize.

Katherine

Last edited by kewms : 08-07-2014 at 02:21 PM.
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Old 08-07-2014, 02:30 PM   #156
Erick Mead
 
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Re: Demonstrating aiki, demontrating aikido.Same thing ?

Quote:
Katherine Derbyshire wrote: View Post
I'm an engineer and a writer. Very precise, mechanistic language absolutely has a place.

As I've said before, though, I'm not sure how pedagogically useful it is. Even assuming Erick's description is accurate in all respects (of which I'm not convinced), I'm not sure that telling someone to inhibit contraction of antagonist muscles is more helpful than telling them to run energy along their own tegatana. In application, any martial art is necessarily intuitive, and so one goal of training is to develop reliable physical intuition.

Not just martial arts, either. Engineering professors miss the days when most of their students spent their teenage years working on cars. Athletic coaches prefer to coach people who spent childhood playing outside. Mechanistic descriptions are important in building a rigorous, testable model -- very useful if you're making a bridge -- but intuition is how you know which models might be worth building.
Katherine
Intuition needs to develop concrete -- and consistent-- patterns of observation AND experience, in order to function reliably. Abstraction is the nature of intuition -- perceiving patterns in specific things that have more general -- though not always obvious -- application.

Mechanistic descriptions were themselves a product of precisely those kind of intuitions -- laboriously resolved and reduced into a coherent and self-consistent system -- over generations. Study of their patterns of principles, shapes and relationships helps develop such intuition. Cranking the wrench is of some value in understanding the critical stress profile of static torsional shear on a bolt -- but less so when abstracting that intuition to the directly and deeply related aspects of a dynamic vortex.

The same is certainly true to a point of many schools of martial arts in their own terms -- but in an international, intercultural art -- personal or cultural idiosyncracy has very little appeal. The source material's descriptions were at best poorly transmitted (or received), or at worst, achieved little if any internal coherence or consistency originally -- beyond "just-so" demonstrations and descriptions. That is not to say that transmission is necessarily impeded by proceeding in this way -- but the sense generally is that Ueshiba's legacy was impeded, and in terms of such a coherent system, is woefully doubtful and uncertainly grounded.

The ad hoc efforts to describe such "just-so" teaching results in a knowledge framed in "just-so" stories and accounts. The result is a herky-jerk progress -- at best, and always doubtful of its foundation. But in that case, unless and until you have both experienced it AND perceived it to be "just so" -- it will remain incapable of the kind of almost unimaginable and consistently repeatable growth in knowledge and power we see displayed in the history of the mechanical and technological arts -- and in all nations, languages and cultures.

Last edited by Erick Mead : 08-07-2014 at 02:32 PM.

Cordially,

Erick Mead
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Old 08-07-2014, 02:40 PM   #157
Erick Mead
 
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Re: Demonstrating aiki, demontrating aikido.Same thing ?

Quote:
Scott Burke wrote: View Post
Heh.
Hee hee.
Aheh. Ha,
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAWOOOHAHAHA!!!
Ah ha heh ha*cough cough* ow hah....
Oh man, sorry. Ahem!. <popping the spinal reflexes> AHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!!!

Yeah no that ain't it.
Happy to entertain. But you know this --- HOW exactly ...?

Bodies work like bodies work -- and these bodies -- they work that way. All of them, if they are healthy. The fact that HE works the body -- admitted very ably, very cleverly and quite subtly -- does not change the fact that he is working it THAT WAY -- in that application.

Transmissions work the way they work. Whether you can drive like the NASCAR or F-1 pro or not -- one can understand how the power meets the road -- and -- with one's own capabilities -- drive a freaking car... and maybe even drift the darned thing through the corners a bit ...

Cordially,

Erick Mead
一隻狗可久里馬房但他也不是馬的.
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Old 08-07-2014, 02:52 PM   #158
kewms
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Re: Demonstrating aiki, demontrating aikido.Same thing ?

I think medicine might be a more useful comparison than the mechanical arts. Mechanical systems are much more predictable and clearly defined than organic systems.

And it's true that in some cases medicine has made astounding progress. Germ theory alone has probably saved millions or even billions of lives. Infectious disease is very amenable to mechanistic analysis: make culture, see little wiggly things in sick people that aren't present in healthy people, get rid of the little wiggly things and people don't get sick. Yay, science!

But then consider, say, back pain. Huge numbers of people have it. And study after study has found this or that contributing abnormality. But, for the most part, none of the treatments work. Spinal fusion surgery works for some people in some cases. But so do chiropractic treatment and acupuncture, both of which "real" scientists tend to dismiss out of hand. Lots of other treatments help sometimes. But sometimes they don't. The "fix this structure, pain goes away" model fails, sometimes spectacularly.

My position is that martial arts are more like back pain than they are like infectious disease. There is much to be learned about the biomechanical structures involved, but understanding them won't necessarily make you a better martial artist.

Katherine
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Old 08-07-2014, 02:59 PM   #159
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Re: Demonstrating aiki, demontrating aikido.Same thing ?

Quote:
Tristan Abara wrote: View Post
Hello Erick Mead,

I have to ask, are you really disputing Mert Gambito's eye witness account and first hand experience?!?

IMO, in this instance that Mert Gambito is more credible than your second hand experience.
If you read what I wrote, you would see I did not question a single thing that Mr. Gambino said he experienced. I accepted his experience without question. I am not going to shrink from my experience any more than I would expect Mr. Gambino to shrink from his. I simply want to see it, examine it, understand and use it.

What I questioned was his assumption that a difference of perception is necessarily a difference of cause and his resulting conclusion based on that -- since I know it to be a false assumption -- in this case at least.

He contended that his different experience of subtle and gradual effects was not explained by the mechanism I outlined for the more sudden and sharp application that happened to be illustrated in the images. I explained that in fact the same biomechanical factors were in play and the suddenness was not an inherent factor in the action.

He assumed that they had to be differently caused -- just because they SEEMED differently felt. Seeming is not seeing. You have to mistrust your assumptions to see. The eyes always see first what the mind expects them to see.

"My eyes and my arm shouted out the truth, but you were not seeing. ... The seeing, the true seeing, that is the heart of it." To quote Syrio Forel.

Just because something is explainable does not make it less profound, less interesting or less worthy of study -- not unless one simply wishes to dwell in the mystery of unexamined experience. In which case, go with God.

Cordially,

Erick Mead
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Old 08-07-2014, 03:14 PM   #160
Erick Mead
 
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Re: Demonstrating aiki, demontrating aikido.Same thing ?

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Katherine Derbyshire wrote: View Post
I think medicine might be a more useful comparison than the mechanical arts. Mechanical systems are much more predictable and clearly defined than organic systems.

But then consider, say, back pain. Huge numbers of people have it. And study after study has found this or that contributing abnormality. But, for the most part, none of the treatments work.
My position is that martial arts are more like back pain than they are like infectious disease. There is much to be learned about the biomechanical structures involved, but understanding them won't necessarily make you a better martial artist.
But knowing it won't make you a worse one either ... Tuite application for instance -- saying they are "just muscle spindles and certain nerve plexuses" (which they are) does not make one necessarily better at triggering them in practice -- but knowing that will help nail down anatomically where to locate them -- and how better to manipulate them -- and making training to exploit them far more likely to progress. Sure the old Chinese medicine meridians and acupuncture maps are not irrelevant -- but they have no objectively systemic explanation to offer -- not even in their own terms.

You are not wrong -- medicine is not an inapt comparison for development, and these are early days in any sense of that kind of coherent development. And for what it is worth, foramenal nerve root blocks pretty much work consistently for back pain, not without downsides-- but they almost invariably do work.

Cordially,

Erick Mead
一隻狗可久里馬房但他也不是馬的.
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Old 08-07-2014, 06:20 PM   #161
transit
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Re: Demonstrating aiki, demontrating aikido.Same thing ?

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Erick Mead wrote: View Post
If you read what I wrote, you would see I did not question a single thing that Mr. Gambino said he experienced. I accepted his experience without question. I am not going to shrink from my experience any more than I would expect Mr. Gambino to shrink from his. I simply want to see it, examine it, understand and use it.

What I questioned was his assumption that a difference of perception is necessarily a difference of cause and his resulting conclusion based on that -- since I know it to be a false assumption -- in this case at least.

He contended that his different experience of subtle and gradual effects was not explained by the mechanism I outlined for the more sudden and sharp application that happened to be illustrated in the images. I explained that in fact the same biomechanical factors were in play and the suddenness was not an inherent factor in the action.

He assumed that they had to be differently caused -- just because they SEEMED differently felt. Seeming is not seeing. You have to mistrust your assumptions to see. The eyes always see first what the mind expects them to see.

"My eyes and my arm shouted out the truth, but you were not seeing. ... The seeing, the true seeing, that is the heart of it." To quote Syrio Forel.

Just because something is explainable does not make it less profound, less interesting or less worthy of study -- not unless one simply wishes to dwell in the mystery of unexamined experience. In which case, go with God.
Hello Erick,
You contend that your theory explains the observed phenomena, Mr. Gambito's own theory also explains the phenomena while having the benefit of first hand observation and experience.
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Old 08-07-2014, 06:23 PM   #162
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Re: Demonstrating aiki, demontrating aikido.Same thing ?

Your observations are at a remove and because of that are less credible IMO.
Sincerely,
Tristan Abara
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Old 08-07-2014, 07:30 PM   #163
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Re: Demonstrating aiki, demontrating aikido.Same thing ?

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Erick Mead wrote: View Post
Happy to entertain. But you know this --- HOW exactly ...?
just venturing a guess, because he's the guy in the picture that went flying? his body and his experience afterall. essentially, you are telling him what he experienced.

"budo is putting on cold, wet, sweat stained gi with a smile and a snarl" - your truly
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Old 08-07-2014, 07:45 PM   #164
Erick Mead
 
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Re: Demonstrating aiki, demontrating aikido.Same thing ?

Quote:
Tristan Abara wrote: View Post
Hello Erick,
You contend that your theory explains the observed phenomena, Mr. Gambito's own theory also explains the phenomena while having the benefit of first hand observation and experience.
Tristan, Mert didn't state any theory, much less attempt to "explain the phenomena." Reading what he wrote, he appears to find it intriguing, perplexing, hard to grasp conceptually, and acknowledges it, to his credit. I acknowledge it; but I didn't start looking at this just yesterday, either.

I don't have a mere "theory". I have experience of my own practice developed training in aikido since 1984 -- reduced to known biomechanical action and sound mechanics in the last ten years or so of work on these fundamental issues specifically over the last ten years. That is a deal more than just a "theory" at this point.

I don't have particular training methodology -- this would be true -- but I am not advocating one either -- lots of different training is good training. I have found good training in my personal experience -- whether the late Parker Sensei 's Yoshinkan, ASU, Iwama, or Federation Aikido. Good stuffs in taichi too, FWIW -- and take the IP/IS crowd at their word that the guys helping them are worth their time. I'm not a partisan.

What has been lacking-- everywhere I have been -- whether in Yokosuka, East Coast, West Coast or Gulf Coast, is a coherent, objective system of understanding that rises past the "just-so" type of training, good as it may be with many teachers.

I mean to remedy that.

Oyesumi nasai.

Cordially,

Erick Mead
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Old 08-07-2014, 07:49 PM   #165
Chris Li
 
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Re: Demonstrating aiki, demontrating aikido.Same thing ?

Quote:
Erick Mead wrote: View Post

He assumed that they had to be differently caused -- just because they SEEMED differently felt. Seeming is not seeing. You have to mistrust your assumptions to see. The eyes always see first what the mind expects them to see.
He also has the advantage of having felt it being done to him many times, and even...doing it himself (although to a much smaller extent than in the photos).

Best,

Chris

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Old 08-07-2014, 07:59 PM   #166
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Re: Demonstrating aiki, demontrating aikido.Same thing ?

Quote:
Erick Mead wrote: View Post
I don't have a mere "theory". I have experience of my own practice developed training in aikido since 1984 -- reduced to known biomechanical action and sound mechanics in the last ten years or so of work on these fundamental issues specifically over the last ten years. That is a deal more than just a "theory" at this point.
Everybody's got explanations, theories or whatever, for how things work. If you've got a theory then show how you can make it work - Dan does, in open rooms, and quite convincingly. Otherwise, it's just...hopeful theorizing.

At some points the theories have to be tested and the results shown.

Best,

Chris

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Old 08-07-2014, 09:05 PM   #167
Robert Cowham
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Re: Demonstrating aiki, demontrating aikido.Same thing ?

Quote:
Katherine Derbyshire wrote: View Post
But then consider, say, back pain. Huge numbers of people have it. And study after study has found this or that contributing abnormality. But, for the most part, none of the treatments work. Spinal fusion surgery works for some people in some cases. But so do chiropractic treatment and acupuncture, both of which "real" scientists tend to dismiss out of hand. Lots of other treatments help sometimes. But sometimes they don't. The "fix this structure, pain goes away" model fails, sometimes spectacularly.

My position is that martial arts are more like back pain than they are like infectious disease. There is much to be learned about the biomechanical structures involved, but understanding them won't necessarily make you a better martial artist.
And if you read Dr John Sarno, you find a theory (and practice which has worked for many):

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_E._Sarno

Quote:
Sarno states that he has successfully treated over ten thousand patients at the Rusk Institute by educating them on his beliefs of a psychological and emotional basis to their pain and symptoms.
Though there are some alternative views: http://saveyourself.ca/articles/mind-over-back-pain.php

My wife is a Radiographer, specialising in MRI. As that field has developed over the years, is was quickly realised that there are people in severe pain with spine scans showing nothing out of the ordinary, and others who they almost helped off the table due to apparent issues with discs and other structures and yet had no pain - the body is complex...
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Old 08-07-2014, 09:07 PM   #168
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Re: Demonstrating aiki, demontrating aikido.Same thing ?

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Phi Truong wrote: View Post
just venturing a guess, because he's the guy in the picture that went flying? his body and his experience afterall. essentially, you are telling him what he experienced.
No, Phi, I am not denying him his experience. I am telling him there is actual real physiology in what happened to him,and that he was neurologically incapable of perceiving correctly at the time that it happened or in the order that it happened. Conscious perception and voluntary reaction are way late to the party -- which -- if you think about it -- makes sense in terms of a superior martial exploit.

Monosynaptic reflexes -- one synapse jump involved (muscle spindle and tendon stretch reflexes, ) =~ 25-50 ms latency

Polysynaptic reflexes (contralateral and correlated upper/lower reflexes, nociceptor flexor reflex,Jendrassick maneuver, nikyo, sankyo) ~75-100 ms latency.

Conscious perception latency ~75-100 ms

Voluntary action latency ~75-100 ms

In a polysynaptic exploit (e.g. -- nikyo ) the action latency is just at the cusp of latent perception as it happens, but latent voluntary reaction is still far behind. But when a monosynaptic (spinal reflex) commences an action -- it has already been happening for half or two-thirds as long as it takes for you to notice the stumulus that caused it, another 25-50ms to notice the reflex action that is continuing to happen. Whatever voluntary reaction you decide to do takes ~ 100 ms from the stimulus that prompted it -- but then you also realize the reflex is happening and that voluntary action is countermanded or modified in transit.

By that time -- Mr. Burke was already airborne. 50+100+100= 250 ms + travel time to 20 inches off the deck -- give or take. That's a slow punch.

So -- even for a trained person -- who is legitimately faster, and on the lower end of the timing scale -- the order of event, action and perception is:

Stimulus = 0
Polysynaptic reflex = 75ms
Awareness of stimulus = 75ms
Voluntary motor action = 150ms
Awareness of reflex = 150ms

In other words, you become aware of the polysynaptic reflex occurring just as your voluntary action occurs (now seen as completely wrong since it could not take the reflex action into account). Psychologically, our mind plays tricks with these latencies. We see what we expect to see -- we feel what we have come to expect to feel. But perception (anyone's perception) is -- neurologically and quite literally -- out of order with respect to the objective sequence of events and the right corrective action. since the awareness of the reflex and awareness of stimulus happen at the same time, it seems simultaneous -- even though it isn't.

This is confusing and difficult, but not as much as the monosynaptic situation

A monosynaptic latency though is on the order of 20-45 ms -- call it 30 ms =0.03s, twice as fast as, or even better, as the visual or pain flinch (polsynaptic) reflexes at ~75 ms).

Stimulus = 0
Monosynaptic reflex = 30ms
Awareness of stimulus = 75 ms
Awareness of reflex = 105ms
Voluntary motor action = 150ms

You find yourself aware of your body doing things contrary to and before what you thought told it to do, but because of this you begin to try to negate or modify your voluntary action -- before it has even happened. You can't do anything about it, but the now counterproductive initial voluntary action still takes place even though you are now aware it is no longer tenable because of the reflexive action. You flounder. You pop. You seem powerless. Your body no longer seemingly obeys.

That is what makes this so powerful.

So I can say -- with some precision -- that I know a BIT more about what did happen, than Mr. Burke was physically capable of perceiving when it happened to him. Unless he was aware of these facts, and meant to raise some other objection than merely mocking laughter.

Cordially,

Erick Mead
一隻狗可久里馬房但他也不是馬的.
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Old 08-07-2014, 09:34 PM   #169
Erick Mead
 
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Re: Demonstrating aiki, demontrating aikido.Same thing ?

Quote:
Christopher Li wrote: View Post
Everybody's got explanations, theories or whatever, for how things work.
... most of which are wrong. Even if useful. Something useful but wrong is a physical metaphor -- fine. This is not that.

Quote:
Christopher Li wrote: View Post
If you've got a theory then show how you can make it work - Dan does, in open rooms, and quite convincingly. Otherwise, it's just...hopeful theorizing.
Aiki-age. Yes. So? Objective truth does not do "work". It just is. Knowing what is and what isn't may make what does work better, and may help make what doesn't work more workable. ... The superlative effects Dan demonstrates, I'll freely grant as the result of long, careful and correct training. An idea does no "work." People have to work to put any idea into practice. No one is saying that idle theory without practice is worthwhile -- least of all me. Perhaps this is your chief objection - in which case we are in agreement after all.

But this is not idle. Objective truth remains regardless of whatever pragmatic descriptions you find helpful to describe or imagine your training. One does not have to be a pilot to understand and even use aerodynamics (though I qualify on both counts), or perform at Dan's level to grasp the objective truth of what is going on in aikiage or to do it to some degree (and I manage, credibly I'm told, on both counts). I make no claims to stunning demonstrations -- I do make claims of some study and knowledge.

I credit you for looking for those objective truths yourself in many of the sources -- as you have provided and shown here and elsewhere -- and to excellent effect. But why then, such a shutdown on considering whether there may be merit in the objective truth of the body ? There are only so many of Dan. Everybody has a body -- they work more or less the same. Why not learn from the body ? That's how the sources actually developed it -- after all.

Cordially,

Erick Mead
一隻狗可久里馬房但他也不是馬的.
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Old 08-08-2014, 12:10 AM   #170
Mert Gambito
Join Date: Jun 2010
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Re: Demonstrating aiki, demontrating aikido.Same thing ?

Quote:
Erick Mead wrote: View Post
If you read what I wrote, you would see I did not question a single thing that Mr. Gambino said he experienced. I accepted his experience without question. I am not going to shrink from my experience any more than I would expect Mr. Gambino to shrink from his. I simply want to see it, examine it, understand and use it.

What I questioned was his assumption that a difference of perception is necessarily a difference of cause and his resulting conclusion based on that -- since I know it to be a false assumption -- in this case at least.

He contended that his different experience of subtle and gradual effects was not explained by the mechanism I outlined for the more sudden and sharp application that happened to be illustrated in the images. I explained that in fact the same biomechanical factors were in play and the suddenness was not an inherent factor in the action.

He assumed that they had to be differently caused -- just because they SEEMED differently felt. Seeming is not seeing. You have to mistrust your assumptions to see. The eyes always see first what the mind expects them to see.

"My eyes and my arm shouted out the truth, but you were not seeing. ... The seeing, the true seeing, that is the heart of it." To quote Syrio Forel.

Just because something is explainable does not make it less profound, less interesting or less worthy of study -- not unless one simply wishes to dwell in the mystery of unexamined experience. In which case, go with God.
Erick,

There's no conclusive proof that you're right or wrong about me (for one) being wrong, or vice versa. My last salvo in this thread will be to clarify that there is not only what happens to the uke, but also the raw (internally driven) physical power exhibited by the nage/tori, which can be used to superior effect as discussed during paired waza, but can also, among other things, drive a shinken through 3-inch diameter trees, and deflect a bokken in sword kata with enough force to put a 3/4-inch divot into solid concrete. To each his/her own in terms of doing what's necessary to understand and utilize IP. It's certainly worth the collective effort.

Mert
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Old 08-08-2014, 05:05 AM   #171
Dazaifoo
Dojo: Chikushino Rental Dojo
Location: Fukuoka
Join Date: Jan 2013
Posts: 31
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Re: Demonstrating aiki, demontrating aikido.Same thing ?

Quote:
Erick Mead wrote: View Post
No, Phi, I am not denying him his experience. I am telling him there is actual real physiology in what happened to him,and that he was neurologically incapable of perceiving correctly at the time that it happened or in the order that it happened. Conscious perception and voluntary reaction are way late to the party -- which -- if you think about it -- makes sense in terms of a superior martial exploit.

Monosynaptic reflexes -- one synapse jump involved (muscle spindle and tendon stretch reflexes, ) =~ 25-50 ms latency

Polysynaptic reflexes (contralateral and correlated upper/lower reflexes, nociceptor flexor reflex,Jendrassick maneuver, nikyo, sankyo) ~75-100 ms latency.

Conscious perception latency ~75-100 ms

Voluntary action latency ~75-100 ms

In a polysynaptic exploit (e.g. -- nikyo ) the action latency is just at the cusp of latent perception as it happens, but latent voluntary reaction is still far behind. But when a monosynaptic (spinal reflex) commences an action -- it has already been happening for half or two-thirds as long as it takes for you to notice the stumulus that caused it, another 25-50ms to notice the reflex action that is continuing to happen. Whatever voluntary reaction you decide to do takes ~ 100 ms from the stimulus that prompted it -- but then you also realize the reflex is happening and that voluntary action is countermanded or modified in transit.

By that time -- Mr. Burke was already airborne. 50+100+100= 250 ms + travel time to 20 inches off the deck -- give or take. That's a slow punch.

So -- even for a trained person -- who is legitimately faster, and on the lower end of the timing scale -- the order of event, action and perception is:

Stimulus = 0
Polysynaptic reflex = 75ms
Awareness of stimulus = 75ms
Voluntary motor action = 150ms
Awareness of reflex = 150ms

In other words, you become aware of the polysynaptic reflex occurring just as your voluntary action occurs (now seen as completely wrong since it could not take the reflex action into account). Psychologically, our mind plays tricks with these latencies. We see what we expect to see -- we feel what we have come to expect to feel. But perception (anyone's perception) is -- neurologically and quite literally -- out of order with respect to the objective sequence of events and the right corrective action. since the awareness of the reflex and awareness of stimulus happen at the same time, it seems simultaneous -- even though it isn't.

This is confusing and difficult, but not as much as the monosynaptic situation

A monosynaptic latency though is on the order of 20-45 ms -- call it 30 ms =0.03s, twice as fast as, or even better, as the visual or pain flinch (polsynaptic) reflexes at ~75 ms).

Stimulus = 0
Monosynaptic reflex = 30ms
Awareness of stimulus = 75 ms
Awareness of reflex = 105ms
Voluntary motor action = 150ms

You find yourself aware of your body doing things contrary to and before what you thought told it to do, but because of this you begin to try to negate or modify your voluntary action -- before it has even happened. You can't do anything about it, but the now counterproductive initial voluntary action still takes place even though you are now aware it is no longer tenable because of the reflexive action. You flounder. You pop. You seem powerless. Your body no longer seemingly obeys.

That is what makes this so powerful.

So I can say -- with some precision -- that I know a BIT more about what did happen, than Mr. Burke was physically capable of perceiving when it happened to him. Unless he was aware of these facts, and meant to raise some other objection than merely mocking laughter.
Wow, you're really smart. I mean I think I'm pretty smart too, but this is like people listening to NPR during dinner and using the good china smart, so my brow is furrowing a little in the effort to keep up.

(You gotta read this next part in a Buggs Bunny voice) Tell you what Brainiac, if we ever cross paths I'd be willing to clamp down on your wrists and let you test your theories on me. Surely with all the thought you've put into this and the confidence of your conclusions you've figured out how to actually do something with it, right?

Maybe you can put on a seminar and teach this, something like From the Blackboard to the Mat. I'd pay good money for that, because brother I wanna know what's going on here. What do you say fellas? *SEMINAR SEMINAR SEMINA!!!R* Ya gotta put your money where your mouth is Doc. *munch munch munch* Because confidentially, until you can, your words just make my eyes swim.
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Old 08-08-2014, 06:31 AM   #172
Mary Eastland
 
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Re: Demonstrating aiki, demontrating aikido.Same thing ?

Quote:
Christopher Li wrote: View Post
Everybody's got explanations, theories or whatever, for how things work. If you've got a theory then show how you can make it work - Dan does, in open rooms, and quite convincingly. Otherwise, it's just...hopeful theorizing.

At some points the theories have to be tested and the results shown.

Best,

Chris
Not just theorizing ...being practiced for years and years..in different ways but valid all the same. We can train how we train and talk about it, here and other places. It is a discussion forum after all. A wonderful place to share ideas.

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Old 08-08-2014, 06:35 AM   #173
Mary Eastland
 
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Re: Demonstrating aiki, demontrating aikido.Same thing ?

Quote:
Scott Burke wrote: View Post
Wow, you're really smart. I mean I think I'm pretty smart too, but this is like people listening to NPR during dinner and using the good china smart, so my brow is furrowing a little in the effort to keep up.

(You gotta read this next part in a Buggs Bunny voice) Tell you what Brainiac, if we ever cross paths I'd be willing to clamp down on your wrists and let you test your theories on me. Surely with all the thought you've put into this and the confidence of your conclusions you've figured out how to actually do something with it, right?

Maybe you can put on a seminar and teach this, something like From the Blackboard to the Mat. I'd pay good money for that, because brother I wanna know what's going on here. What do you say fellas? *SEMINAR SEMINAR SEMINA!!!R* Ya gotta put your money where your mouth is Doc. *munch munch munch* Because confidentially, until you can, your words just make my eyes swim.
Don't we all already now how to do that? Maybe there is another way....
And what will that prove?..that someone is stronger than another...that one way is better than another?

Aikido is finding commonality... not fighting. But here that circle goes again...

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Old 08-08-2014, 08:40 AM   #174
Dazaifoo
Dojo: Chikushino Rental Dojo
Location: Fukuoka
Join Date: Jan 2013
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Re: Demonstrating aiki, demontrating aikido.Same thing ?

Quote:
Mary Eastland wrote: View Post
Don't we all already now how to do that? Maybe there is another way....
And what will that prove?..that someone is stronger than another...that one way is better than another?

Aikido is finding commonality... not fighting. But here that circle goes again...
"Don't we all already now how to do that?" Do what, Aikiage? Don't look at me, I'm just a mug.

"Maybe there is another way...." Hey, I'm all ears so long as you can do it, otherwise it's like listening to one of my IFLS buddies describing figure skating as "just good physics". OK lunchbox,let's see you slap on some skates and pirouette like Nancy Kerrigan. What's that, you can't? Well then keep talking, I'm sure you'll have a breakthrough.

"And what will that prove?" That there's a right way and a wrong way to go about this.

"that someone is stronger than another..." If strength had anything to do with aiki then I know a ton of Guidos that I'd call O'Sensei.

"that one way is better than another?" Well yes, that is the point. Otherwise the alternative is that we take a big tent approach where we all get gold stars and little certificates of awesomeness validating my personhood or some similarly lame declaration. Having been thoroughly outclassed by these IP teachers is a truly humbling experience. I know which way I'd rather turn.

"Aikido is finding commonality... not fighting." Yeah, it can be. Sooooooo.......

"But here that circle goes again... "And look at that, my bus is here! I must be toddling along, spot of tiffin and all that - give my regards to the king, and the queen, and the ace of diamonds.
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Old 08-08-2014, 09:55 AM   #175
ken king
Location: St. Louis, MO
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Re: Demonstrating aiki, demontrating aikido.Same thing ?

Science is nice and all but it's really clear instruction and the work that matters to me. Show me what it feels like and teach me what I need to do to replicate that feeling in others. Dan has a superb method for relaying this to the layman like myself. Theory craft all you want, I'll be pulling silk.
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