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Old 07-03-2014, 07:28 AM   #126
PeterR
 
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Re: Why bother keeping Aikido 'pure'?

Quote:
Carl Thompson wrote: View Post
Don't you just hate that guy who comes to dinner and, without even trying the cuisine you lovingly slaved over (including the recipe tried and tested over generations, handed down by your great grandma), grabs the salt, the pepper, the Tabasco sauce or whatever, rather than just give it a go as intended?

I'm not adverse to Tabasco myself, but wouldn't you like to know what your aikido tastes like without Tabasco, just for reference? They say there are all kinds of flavours of aikido, some stronger than others. You could still mix them with Tabasco, but, informed by how they taste without. Maybe you would find other more exciting combinations. Maybe you'd end up adding a particular vintage of aikido neat to everything, instead of Tabasco? Or even adding a unique combination of aikido and Tabasco to everything.

Just my half a Euro.

Carl
Sure - except that back in the day Tabasco was added by the chef.

Peter Rehse Shodokan Aikido
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Old 07-03-2014, 11:04 AM   #127
fjh
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Re: Why bother keeping Aikido 'pure'?

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Katherine Derbyshire wrote: View Post
Two problems with this.
Certainly it doesn't hurt to be strong. But saying that strength is the answer to whatever might be wrong with your aikido is simply missing the point of how aikido techniques are supposed to work.
This is true.

Quote:
Katherine Derbyshire wrote: View Post
Which brings us to problem number two, which is that training like a powerlifter is not really compatible with the flexibility and sensitivity that aikido requires.
But this is not, and I'd really like to see this myth go away. There's a lot to be learned from strength training. The benefits of strength training on general health are well studied and very well documented.

When it comes to Aikido, my experience with powerlifting is that it enhanced my body's resilience, enhanced my ability to recover from injuries, taught me about leverage and body structure, taught me about intense mental focus, showed me how hard human beings can push themselves, and all sorts of other good stuff. There's nothing like exerting such a maximal effort that you fry your nervous system.

The flexibility thing is just another misconception. There are plenty of strong and flexible people, it goes hand in hand. Go to youtube and check out how sumo wrestlers, power lifters, olympic lifters, and the old school circus strength guys train. You'll be amazed. I doubt most people here have the flexibility to do a legal power squat without any weight, let alone any of the olympic lifts or sumo warm ups.

Strength training has never had a negative effect on my Aikido training, it's only enhanced it. A lot of Aikido students would do well to pick up something heavy and actually learn what physical power is, how it works, and why they can't rely on it in a martial art. They might even stop missing classes or taking half-assed ukemi because their (insert body part here) hurts.
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Old 07-03-2014, 11:13 AM   #128
kewms
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Re: Why bother keeping Aikido 'pure'?

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Floyd Hagen wrote: View Post
The flexibility thing is just another misconception. There are plenty of strong and flexible people, it goes hand in hand. Go to youtube and check out how sumo wrestlers, power lifters, olympic lifters, and the old school circus strength guys train. You'll be amazed. I doubt most people here have the flexibility to do a legal power squat without any weight, let alone any of the olympic lifts or sumo warm ups.

Strength training has never had a negative effect on my Aikido training, it's only enhanced it. A lot of Aikido students would do well to pick up something heavy and actually learn what physical power is, how it works, and why they can't rely on it in a martial art. They might even stop missing classes or taking half-assed ukemi because their (insert body part here) hurts.
A friend of mine is a massage therapist who works on powerlifters. I think she might disagree with you. While it's *possible* to be both strong and flexible, it requires paying extra attention to mobility and flexibility and a lot of people simply don't bother.

I actually agree with you that strength training can be valuable for aikidoka. Having a strong, stable squat makes a world of difference in koshinage, for instance. I just disagree with the claim I was responding to, that getting stronger is the way to "fix" your aikido.

Katherine
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Old 07-03-2014, 11:57 AM   #129
Dan Rubin
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Re: Why bother keeping Aikido 'pure'?

Quote:
Carl Thompson wrote: View Post
Don't you just hate that guy who comes to dinner and, without even trying the cuisine you lovingly slaved over (including the recipe tried and tested over generations, handed down by your great grandma), grabs the salt, the pepper, the Tabasco sauce or whatever, rather than just give it a go as intended?
A great analogy. Thanks.
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Old 07-18-2014, 12:52 PM   #130
Michael Neal
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Re: Why bother keeping Aikido 'pure'?

Being strong makes a world of difference in any martial art, including Aikido. I never argued it was a substitute for technique, when combined with technique it is a force multiplier, so to speak.

Koshinage is absolutely dependent on strength if you want to throw someone who is not an uke and weighs a lot. Go try to throw around a 250lb judoka who is not playing a nice uke without having much strength. They are not going to charge at you and give your the momentum you need as a smaller person, you have to generate that momentum through strength/force. The same with any heavy attacker, they are just not going to give you much momentum.
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Old 07-18-2014, 12:57 PM   #131
Cliff Judge
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Re: Why bother keeping Aikido 'pure'?

Quote:
Michael Neal wrote: View Post
Being strong makes a world of difference in any martial art, including Aikido. I never argued it was a substitute for technique, when combined with technique it is a force multiplier, so to speak.

Koshinage is absolutely dependent on strength if you want to throw someone who is not an uke and weighs a lot. Go try to throw around a 250lb judoka who is not playing a nice uke without having much strength. They are not going to charge at you and give your the momentum you need as a smaller person, you have to generate that momentum through strength/force. The same with any heavy attacker, they are just not going to give you much momentum.
I think the point you are trying to make is that without strength it will be difficult to throw a 250lb person who is actually trying to let you throw him.

Strength is not going to be what gives you the ability to throw a 250lb judoka who is resisting, unless you suck at judo.
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Old 07-18-2014, 01:19 PM   #132
Michael Neal
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Re: Why bother keeping Aikido 'pure'?

Strength is absolutely one of the factors that gives you that ability, again I never said it replaced technique. Just about every competitive judoka lifts weights for that reason.

In Judo you often need to generate movement through force with pushing and pulling, people don't charge at you. In order to effectively push and pull big people you need to be strong.

Last edited by Michael Neal : 07-18-2014 at 01:25 PM.
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Old 07-18-2014, 01:37 PM   #133
Michael Neal
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Re: Why bother keeping Aikido 'pure'?

the same goes for 300+lb people going on rampages, the more strength you have to go along with your technique the better your odds
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Old 07-18-2014, 02:21 PM   #134
kewms
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Re: Why bother keeping Aikido 'pure'?

As a 125# woman, getting into contests of strength with people twice my size is never going to be a winning strategy, no matter how much time I spend in the gym.

Which takes me back to my original point. It never hurts to be strong, but good technique is not about strength.

Katherine
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Old 07-18-2014, 07:21 PM   #135
Janet Rosen
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Re: Why bother keeping Aikido 'pure'?

Quote:
Katherine Derbyshire wrote: View Post
As a 125# woman, getting into contests of strength with people twice my size is never going to be a winning strategy, no matter how much time I spend in the gym.

Which takes me back to my original point. It never hurts to be strong, but good technique is not about strength.

Katherine
Seconded by another woman in that weight class

Janet Rosen
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Old 07-18-2014, 08:30 PM   #136
phitruong
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Re: Why bother keeping Aikido 'pure'?

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Michael Neal wrote: View Post
In Judo you often need to generate movement through force with pushing and pulling, people don't charge at you. In order to effectively push and pull big people you need to be strong.
you mean like this https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=epfWXEuEgYI ? you think Ikeda sensei strong compare to the two big guys? or even out muscle them?

"budo is putting on cold, wet, sweat stained gi with a smile and a snarl" - your truly
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Old 07-21-2014, 06:05 AM   #137
Michael Neal
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Re: Why bother keeping Aikido 'pure'?

I never suggested that getting in a battle of strength with someone is a good strategy, I wouldn't either even if I was stronger than my opponent. But I would use it to apply more force to my technique at the right moment. If my opponent is bigger and stronger than me, me being as strong as I possibly can would mitigate his advantage.

This woman is stronger than most average guys, she would be pretty fierce if she added martial arts to her training

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=85fAMHWa530
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Old 07-21-2014, 07:50 AM   #138
jonreading
 
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Re: Why bother keeping Aikido 'pure'?

All of this stuff is percentages. Improving your physical fitness lifts you above number of potential adversaries. Improving your technical skill lifts you above some number of potential adversaries. Improving your ability to project your relative abilities places you above some number of potential adversaries. Improving your proficiency using weapons (and carrying them) lifts you above some number of potential adversaries. Ultimately, (from a "fighting" perspective) we are working to elevate our entire collection of advantages above the largest percentage of potential adversaries. Aikido is just one set of skills among a larger collection.

Fidelity to a system means that you allow the training methodology to run its course. One of the odd things about O Sensei's early teaching is that he wold often cut students loose. He would teach a student for a period of time, then say, "Okay, you've got it. Bye. Stay in touch." Stepping back to O Sensei's relationship with Takeda, it seems that he would have intense periods of training followed by lapses, where O Sensei presumably continued to train. It does give the impression that his aiki instruction was a limited instruction followed by commitment to training.

First, I think we become distracted with other arts. Not that this is a bad thing because we want to be able to work with other groups and I believe a working knowledge of those groups is important. It is very difficult to work with people who train in other arts - aikido is not judo (for example). Give credit where credit is due and don't assume our cross-training partner is doing anything but playing nice with our aikido rules. We tease one of our judo players because I swear if you go to South America, he is what's in the cage that wrestles all-comers in the seedy bar.

Second, I think our current methodology is having difficulty showing results. I think part of problem one is that our current methodology does not produce the results we want within the time frame we want. I think arguing whether its the process or the expectations that are at fault is another thread. In either case, there is a lure of success through other arts that many creates a sense of insecurity of aikido's success as a martial education.

As a bit o' heresay... In Phi's clip, Ikeda sensei is stronger than his partners... stronger through ki/aiki. It may not be the "strength" that we typically consider, but it is a skill that is elevating sensei above his partners... That is the strength sensei trains, not the kind that looks good on the beach.

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Old 10-07-2014, 03:28 AM   #139
lifestylemanoz
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Re: Why bother keeping Aikido 'pure'?

Train many arts and have many teacher.

I agree with your thoughts!
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