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Old 07-03-2014, 10:43 AM   #126
kewms
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Re: Introduction + The missing Atemi

Quote:
Arno Hist wrote: View Post
The second student, trains some artificial techniques (as it was mentioned earlier in this thread, these are just a base for understanding concepts, developing sensitivity, etc, so they need to be refined later with flowing/ dynamic techniques), artificial attacks (no-one ever will attack like that. We all agree on that. I know it is for training but nevertheless, that is the input/experience the body receives), in an artificial way (non fighting, static, no immediate feedback, if he doesn't like the attack he demands ala Jim Carrey to have it made different). Not to mention that he is mostly a non- muscle, non- large, non aggressive person.

Now, if I could choose one of the two to protect me, the choice would be obvious. Don't you think?
First, protect you from what?

Second, this is not a universally accurate description of beginner training in aikido.

Third, remember that uke is learning aikido, too, and one of the things they *should* be learning is how to attack effectively.

Katherine

Last edited by kewms : 07-03-2014 at 10:46 AM.
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Old 07-03-2014, 10:49 AM   #127
lbb
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Re: Introduction + The missing Atemi

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Arno Hist wrote: View Post
I actually don't exactly agree with the above, as it implies that the uke is on purpose trying to make it difficult for the nage to execute the technique. To me, it is important that the nage (if in position to do so) or sensei show at some point to uke that there is always an appropriate response to any attack (quantitative & qualitative) but it is equally (if not more) important to understand and question why the uke performs this way. The easy way is to say (or write on a thread) that he is a jerk and stop thinking about it. But there might be some more noble reasons why uke behaves like that.
So toss out the word "jerk" if it seems too judgmental to you (an understandable reaction, obviously). I found it interesting that in context, the person who first used it (I thought) made it clear that he was using "being a jerk" in a somewhat different sense than one would usually use it. I think I understood what he meant, but if you can't see it (again understandable), then set the term aside. Likewise "obstinate attitude", if that strikes you as too judgy. I think it's just being used as shorthand, though. I think everyone who's trying to explain this to you understands quite well that this is not just a case of uke intentionally being difficult out of sheer meanness or stubbornness or (insert character flaw of choice here). Sometimes uke is hopelessly uncoordinated and so unknowingly does something that puts him/herself in a really bad position. Sometimes uke has a "bright idea" that really isn't so smart at all, resulting in (again) a really bad position. Sometimes uke is inflexible or out of shape and can't move in ways that are required to receive the technique safely. Whatever. But the important thing is that in all cases, uke is doing something that impedes his/her own learning.

I came to aikido with experience in other martial arts. At first, much of what I saw made no sense to me. Many things were counterintuitive to me. But they also didn't contradict what I'd learned before. They were different, sure -- but looking back on my prior training, I couldn't point to anything that said, "Doing so-and-so (what I was learning in aikido) is pointless and stupid and will get you killed." So while I did examine what I was learning from a perspective of prior training, I didn't try to make it fit into that mold. If I'd been in a karate dojo, what I was learning would have been considered some pretty peculiar karate -- but I wasn't in a karate dojo. So, I didn't try to judge it by karate standards.

There's an inherent difficulty in a beginner trying to evaluate the quality and validity of what they're learning, whether it be aikido or physics. If you refuse to take anything on faith, even to keep an open mind to the possibility that what your teacher says is valid, and you insist on proof before you will accept it, you've created a dilemma for yourself. You demand an explanation before you are willing to accept the teaching, but you lack the experience and knowledge to understand the explanation -- and without accepting the teaching, you won't get it. You have to be able to accept at least the possibility that what you're told as so, and to practice accordingly, before you can gain an understanding of why this is so.

This is not to say that you have to accept anything you're told. You can always try to teach yourself, by experience and primary research. That's a pretty inefficient method, to say the least, as you often won't get much of anywhere. There are some things you really need a teacher for. You can also use your own judgment of character as to whether your teacher is a person of integrity or not. There is no formula, it's a matter of painful experience, but if you know how to spot a con, a manipulator, someone who is lying to him/herself or others...well, you know 'em when you see 'em. I've got a pretty good bullshit meter -- I trust it, and it has been a long time since it proved me wrong. So when I came to my aikido dojo, I was able to judge that the senseis and the students were people of integrity, sensible people, not deluded and not interested in deluding others. The practice made no sense to me at all. But because I felt that the teachers were trustworthy, I was able to maintain an open mind, to do things that made no sense to me, over and over again, and get the data points so that now they start to make sense, I can understand the explanations or explain them to myself. Without the data points, though, the theory would mean nothing to me. And without the open-minded practice, I'd never have gotten the data points. If I'd insisted on proof before practice, I'd never have gotten anywhere.
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Old 07-03-2014, 11:25 AM   #128
Blue Buddha
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Re: Introduction + The missing Atemi

Quote:
Demetrio Cereijo wrote: View Post
Avoiding trouble is very sensible but, if trouble arises, it is better for you that your opponent(s) are weak and poorly trained.

Let aikido people follow flawed training methods. They are happy training that way and you will be safer if an akidoka tries to attack you.

There are enough dangerous people around, no need to add more.
Sorry but I don't feel good about feeding other people's illusions. From your ID it seems you have a big experience with various martial arts. There are people who don't have this determination, time, money, craze, or whatever, and what to learn self defence (and along whatever comes with it) in just one system. Are they fools? Should they be left in ignorance just because you, or me, would feel safer with less experienced m. artists in the streets? Who is to decide? This is admitedly exactly the philosophy that changed the martial arts field in post war Japan.
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Old 07-03-2014, 11:49 AM   #129
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Re: Introduction + The missing Atemi

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Arno Hist wrote: View Post
There are people who don't have this determination, time, money, craze, or whatever, and what to learn self defence (and along whatever comes with it) in just one system.
Those people probably should not be studying a martial art at all. They should find a set of techniques and strategies (almost certainly not all from "just one system") that will enhance their safety from whatever it is that threatens them. But until you can say what that threat is, you're in no position to be either proposing or dismissing any solution. It's like walking into a hardware store and saying, "I want the best tool in the store!"
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Old 07-03-2014, 12:02 PM   #130
jvon
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Re: Introduction + The missing Atemi

Ukemi is quite difficult to practice. Practicing the role of uke allows us the time to study openings in our own attacks, and teaches us ways of safely defending those openings. It is the responsibility of uke to recognize openings for atemi and to respond to those openings. Sensitive ukemi, wherein we follow the movement of our training partner, develops the sensitivity required to change directions appropriately and when indicated, which makes henka waza (transitioning techniques) and kaeshi waza (reversing techniques) possible during later stages of practice. Sensitive ukemi is the means by which we may "steal" the techniques of our teachers and senior students.
Most of the time, sempai will slow way down when training with new, or inexperienced training partners. The techniques are action-response katas, and both roles have delineated actions. Fast practice, or practice that transitions from one technique to another (henka waza), etc. requires, for safety, that both practitioners be fluent in both roles of a wide range of techniques. Slow movement can amplify mistakes, however, which may be tempting to attempt to resist.
Many beginners (and even some experienced practitioners) have a tendency to resist a technique by either tensing up against it, or disconnecting and changing the direction of their ukemi. There are techniques (henka waza) for dealing with such systems of resistance, but those are reserved for explicit demonstration and practice. Most instructors would like the students to practice just what has been demonstrated, at a level of intensity that is appropriate for the less experienced of each partnership.
Many instructors expect to be the only instructor on the mat. If your sempai aren't explaining things, it could be that such behavior is not tolerated in your dojo. It's not necessarily the case everywhere, but it is definitely the case some places.
You really should keep practicing. The most practical aspect of aikido really is ukemi. With experience, you will develop the sensitivity required to sense changes in direction by an obstinate attacker, and adjust your application of technique appropriately. The far more likely scenario to being attacked, though (unless you are in some kind of high-risk occupation or social situation), is that you will, at some point, fall down. Falls become tremendously more dangerous as we age, but, with practice, we can improve how we fall.
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Old 07-03-2014, 12:38 PM   #131
Blue Buddha
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Re: Introduction + The missing Atemi

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Mary Malmros wrote: View Post
Those people probably should not be studying a martial art at all.
So, you propose that they either enrol in 10 different martial art classes or they don't do anything at all. Sorry, but we have a life outside the dojo, we are not samurais...
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Old 07-03-2014, 01:25 PM   #132
kewms
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Re: Introduction + The missing Atemi

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Joel Vonnahme wrote: View Post
You really should keep practicing. The most practical aspect of aikido really is ukemi. With experience, you will develop the sensitivity required to sense changes in direction by an obstinate attacker, and adjust your application of technique appropriately. The far more likely scenario to being attacked, though (unless you are in some kind of high-risk occupation or social situation), is that you will, at some point, fall down. Falls become tremendously more dangerous as we age, but, with practice, we can improve how we fall.
Yup. I've personally experienced maybe 5-7 "real world" aikido situations. Two of those involved verbally backing off intoxicated people. (No physical response needed.) The rest were falls and potential falls. Almost all the real world situations that friends of mine have experienced were falls, too, both cases where aikidoka friends could have been injured and weren't, and cases where non-training friends might have been able to avoid injury and didn't.

Katherine
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Old 07-03-2014, 01:34 PM   #133
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Re: Introduction + The missing Atemi

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Arno Hist wrote: View Post
So, you propose that they either enrol in 10 different martial art classes or they don't do anything at all. Sorry, but we have a life outside the dojo, we are not samurais...
Arno, you've clearly got an axe to grind, so I'm not sure why I'm bothering, but here goes. What you just did is a combination of a strawman argument (misrepresenting the position of the other side in order to make it an easy target to destroy with great drama, rolling of eyes and clutching of pearls..."Sorry, but we have a life outside the dojo...") and a false dichotomy. You've constructed the absurd position that the choices for self-defense are 1)taking ten different martial arts classes or 2)doing nothing, and then attributed that position to me. This is intellectually dishonest, and quite laughably so.

You say you want a solution, yet you refuse to define the problem. How can you expect useful answers if that's the approach you take? Do you walk into a hardware store and say, "I want the best tool in the store", refuse to answer when they ask you want you want to use it for, and then yell, "So you propose that I either buy every tool in the store, or not buy any tool at all!"? "Self-defense" is the same. Who or what are you defending against? Why are they attacking you? Where are they attacking you? Do they have any skills, weapons, other resources? Is this a movie-fantasy attack in the stereotypical dark alley, or is it something more realistic, like an attack by a spouse or partner? Et bloody cetera.

No one can help you if you refuse to frame the problem in terms that have some relation to the real world. If you'd rather just move the goalposts every time someone tries to give you an answer, so you can have the satisfaction of ridiculing their response, then I wish you every bit of the rancid, bitter enjoyment that kind of game brings. Meanwhile I'll be over here investing in circus pony futures.
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Old 07-03-2014, 01:36 PM   #134
kewms
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Re: Introduction + The missing Atemi

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Mary Malmros wrote: View Post
Meanwhile I'll be over here investing in circus pony futures.
I would imagine ukemi skills would be pretty useful if caught in a circus pony stampede...

Katherine
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Old 07-03-2014, 02:09 PM   #135
bkedelen
 
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Re: Introduction + The missing Atemi

Please stop feeding the troll.
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Old 07-03-2014, 03:21 PM   #136
Hilary
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Re: Introduction + The missing Atemi

Really good advice Ben. On the other hand he has been really effective, you have to admire that on some level.
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Old 07-03-2014, 03:58 PM   #137
Riai Maori
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Re: Introduction + The missing Atemi

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Benjamin Edelen wrote: View Post
Please stop feeding the troll.
YES! Please STOP feeding the TROLL. Come train with me friend and lets walk your talk, being a 3rd Kyu, puts us on the same playing level. You do not have a clue about me, but when you wake up, all your questions will be answered!

There is always 3 sides to a story, their side, your side and the TRUTH
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Old 07-04-2014, 02:21 PM   #138
Blue Buddha
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Re: Introduction + The missing Atemi

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Arno Hist wrote: View Post
There are people who don't have this determination, time, money, craze, or whatever, and what to learn self defence (and along whatever comes with it) in just one system. Are they fools? Should they be left in ignorance just because you, or me, would feel safer with less experienced m. artists in the streets? Who is to decide?
Quote:
Mary Malmros wrote: View Post
Those people probably should not be studying a martial art at all.
Well, there is no much space for misunderstanding here. It's not a bad thing to admit when you are wrong.

Quote:
Mary Malmros wrote: View Post
So toss out the word "jerk" if it seems too judgmental to you (an understandable reaction, obviously). I found it interesting that in context, the person who first used it (I thought) made it clear that he was using "being a jerk" in a somewhat different sense than one would usually use it. I think I understood what he meant, but if you can't see it (again understandable), then set the term aside. Likewise "obstinate attitude", if that strikes you as too judgy. I think it's just being used as shorthand, though.
English is not my first language, so there is always a language barrier that needs to be overcome. Still when I am arguing I am careful not to use words like stupid, jerk etc.

Quote:
Mary Malmros wrote: View Post
I think everyone who's trying to explain this to you understands quite well that this is not just a case of uke intentionally being difficult out of sheer meanness or stubbornness or (insert character flaw of choice here). Sometimes uke is hopelessly uncoordinated and so unknowingly does something that puts him/herself in a really bad position. Sometimes uke has a "bright idea" that really isn't so smart at all, resulting in (again) a really bad position. Sometimes uke is inflexible or out of shape and can't move in ways that are required to receive the technique safely. Whatever. But the important thing is that in all cases, uke is doing something that impedes his/her own learning.
It has quite successfully pointed out by other members of this forum that it is not always the uke who impedes the training. What I am trying to add, is my view regarding the other reasons, as *I* see them, why the training methodology is not optimal. You don't need to agree with me on that, but that is how I see it.

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Mary Malmros wrote: View Post
You demand an explanation before you are willing to accept the teaching, but you lack the experience and knowledge to understand the explanation -- and without accepting the teaching, you won't get it. You have to be able to accept at least the possibility that what you're told as so, and to practice accordingly, before you can gain an understanding of why this is so.
I don't demand anything. I opened a discussion on something that is troubling me and many others like me. I am very open to other ideas, possibilities and viewpoints and as I respect theirs I demand that they respect mine..

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Mary Malmros wrote: View Post
Arno, you've clearly got an axe to grind,
Its a pity you feel this way. I have only been honest and respectful of others, in contrast to what I am receiving as replies, just because I insist in my opinion.

Quote:
Mary Malmros wrote: View Post
What you just did is a combination of a strawman argument (misrepresenting the position of the other side in order to make it an easy target to destroy with great drama, rolling of eyes and clutching of pearls..."Sorry, but we have a life outside the dojo...") and a false dichotomy. You've constructed the absurd position that the choices for self-defense are 1)taking ten different martial arts classes or 2)doing nothing, and then attributed that position to me. This is intellectually dishonest, and quite laughably so.
Please, read again our quotes above, side to side. What am I misrepresenting exactly?
"Laughably dishonest" - Again, this level of communication does not suit me.

Quote:
Mary Malmros wrote: View Post
You say you want a solution, yet you refuse to define the problem. How can you expect useful answers if that's the approach you take? Do you walk into a hardware store and say, "I want the best tool in the store", refuse to answer when they ask you want you want to use it for, and then yell, "So you propose that I either buy every tool in the store, or not buy any tool at all!"? "Self-defense" is the same. Who or what are you defending against? Why are they attacking you? Where are they attacking you? Do they have any skills, weapons, other resources? Is this a movie-fantasy attack in the stereotypical dark alley, or is it something more realistic, like an attack by a spouse or partner? Et bloody cetera.

No one can help you if you refuse to frame the problem in terms that have some relation to the real world. If you'd rather just move the goalposts every time someone tries to give you an answer, so you can have the satisfaction of ridiculing their response, then I wish you every bit of the rancid, bitter enjoyment that kind of game brings. Meanwhile I'll be over here investing in circus pony futures.
I think I gave enough framing with examples regarding this hypothetical situation, but still there is no reply. Again, it is funny how you feel that I am looking for help. This is incorrect. I started a discussion expressing some viewpoints and some very helpful individuals shared some invaluable knowledge to me that gave me food for thought.

Then the conversation went on, and as it is often the case with conversations, I put forth some new observations and viewpoints. And finally, because there are apparently too many fanboys in this forum, I am being called a troll. Is there any sticky that said "thou shall not speak critically about aspects of aikido you don't like"?

What can I say. Focusing only on you, you have attacked me with various adjectives in your last posts when there is no need for that at all. Especially your last paragraph is beyond my imagination and I guess it enters the field of psychology. I just wanted a friendly, fruitful dialogue and to an extend that is what happened.

If someone thinks they can contribute further with they response, they are welcome to do so. If this is something you are not interested in, there are many other things on the internet you can have fun with. I don't have the time or will to answer to offensive comments.
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Old 07-04-2014, 03:50 PM   #139
JP3
 
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Re: Introduction + The missing Atemi

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Benjamin Edelen wrote: View Post
Please stop feeding the troll.
I do think that you may be right. We may be driving our own blood pressure up for no reason other than to amuse... someone.

I find it interesting that the kanji character for kuzushi illustrates a mountain falling on a house.
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Old 07-04-2014, 06:45 PM   #140
hughrbeyer
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Re: Introduction + The missing Atemi

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Arno Hist wrote: View Post
Quote:
John Powell wrote:
So, on John's quote, which I absolutely loved, "Sometimes, the proper response is to drop your partner on her butt, then explain that while her obstinate attitude is not a problem in application, it is making the current exercise more difficult."
I actually don't exactly agree with the above, as it implies that the uke is on purpose trying to make it difficult for the nage to execute the technique. To me, it is important that the nage (if in position to do so) or sensei show at some point to uke that there is always an appropriate response to any attack (quantitative & qualitative) but it is equally (if not more) important to understand and question why the uke performs this way. The easy way is to say (or write on a thread) that he is a jerk and stop thinking about it. But there might be some more noble reasons why uke behaves like that.
The thing you need to understand, as a less experienced student, is that when you act this way as uke people will think you are being a jerk. That's because there are a non-trivial number of people who let their ego get away with them and behave like this intentionally. So if you keep it up, you will get a reputation for being a jerk. Your choice whether you want that or not.

Most Aikido practice is basically kata. Predefined attack, predefined response. What you're saying comes down to that you don't like kata training. Your privilege, and you do have good company in that, but if you don't learn why kata training is useful, you're going to be frustrated a lot on the Aikido mat. Consider that essentially all koryu teach their arts through kata training. These are arts that were developed to keep people alive on the battlefield--yet most of the teaching is through staged interactions. Why do you think that is?

My teacher says, "If you train chaos, you learn chaos." Until you've burned in the right movement patterns, all you'll get from free sparring is chaos. Think about that.

As for whether nage has the responsibility for helping you through this, he/she does and did. Nage's only other real option at this point was to show how your uncommitted attack left you open to a different technique. That could easily result in you either being hit, or having to take a fall you're not ready for. We try not to do that in most Aikido dojos.

Sure, it's nice for the instructor to show you all the different variations in how a technique can evolve depending on what uke does--the basic 17 kata of Tomiki Aikido is structured just this way--but you can't depend on that every time.

On the subject of trolls, meh. Maybe, maybe not. I'm in it for the discussion.

Evolution doesn't prove God doesn't exist, any more than hammers prove carpenters don't exist.
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Old 07-04-2014, 11:10 PM   #141
kewms
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Re: Introduction + The missing Atemi

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Hugh Beyer wrote: View Post
The thing you need to understand, as a less experienced student, is that when you act this way as uke people will think you are being a jerk. That's because there are a non-trivial number of people who let their ego get away with them and behave like this intentionally. So if you keep it up, you will get a reputation for being a jerk. Your choice whether you want that or not.
To elaborate a little, what tends to happen is that people try practicing with you a couple of times, decide that you're not any fun to train with, and start avoiding you.

The more senior people might dump you on the floor a few times and try to explain how what you are doing is inappropriate for what's being taught, but they might not. They're human too. They've seen many many students come through the door, train for a while, and vanish without a trace. Life is too short to get overly invested in any single beginner. Especially one who seems to be halfway out the door already because he isn't finding what he's looking for.

We don't ask people to kneel by the gate in the rain any more, and that's probably a good thing. But it will always be true that you get out of the art what you put into it. If you are perceived -- accurately or not -- as not approaching aikido practice with an open mind, then people probably won't expend much effort to try to help you.

Now, whether the level of challenge you present will be perceived in this way *will* depend on the skill level of the person and the dojo culture. There are some dojos where I'm pretty sure I wouldn't be happy for much the same reasons that you describe, and some where I fit right in. But it doesn't really matter, because they're not going to change. You can accommodate yourself to the way they train, or you can find a different dojo.

Katherine
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Old 07-07-2014, 07:57 AM   #142
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Re: Introduction + The missing Atemi

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John Powell wrote: View Post
OK. For me, I can say that reading the above (yes, all 5 pages of it), and putting a bit of redneck in it, I have absolutely no doubt at all, simply basing it on the level of the cerebration involved (like that word, eh? Cerebration, that's right y'all, a couple of advanced degrees over here and stuff), that I have no doubt that, John, Katherine and Mary can put a serious... the technical term is "Whomp" on someone, should they have a "need" to do so.

But, let's define "need," to define that. Or not, as I'm certain everyone knows the difference between want and need.

That being said, it takes a very, very skilled uke to not taken any remedial action in preparation for a technique they know is coming, e.g. the regular class situation. We've got a saying, "Anyone can defeat a technique they know is coming."

So, we also have another saying, "Nothing ever works. You just keep going until both of you are surprised."

So, on John's quote, which I absolutely loved, "Sometimes, the proper response is to drop your partner on her butt, then explain that while her obstinate attitude is not a problem in application, it is making the current exercise more difficult."

See, John's really nice, and he's all cerebral and stuff. I'm more down home, and would say, "You can do that again if you want, but you aren't learning what you're supposed to be learning while you're down there. If you want, after class, I'll show you how you ended up down there."

I've posted before about the best athelete in my school, a tang soo do black belt, I think she's a 2nd degree in TSD, she was in it 12 years of steady training, so that'd be about right I think, or maybe a bit behind. Anyway, she's the one who "challenges" the "what" we are doing on an almost dily basis, wanting to know "if it works" etc. So, I just shrug and show her. She predictably attempts to block or defeat the technique "on the board" right then, which she does, and because she really doesn't know how what she's done ruined her posture, or gave up her balance, or put her in a vulnerable position, or sometimes all of the above, it devolves to me to show her or point it out to her, usually involving a grunt on her part as she's compressed into the mat, or stretched out in a lock, dumped on her butt, or whatever. It's just the nature of the thing. Beginner's question. They don't understand , and that's OK. Remember, "Question Everything." It's not a bad place to learn from and it's not to be feared.
I used to use terms that implied a deliberation component of a partner's response to confound technique. But, I realized it was over-broad to generalize that my partner was consciously trying to stop the technique. In fact, most of the time, my partner was unaware of the consequences of her action. I got out of the "jerk" mode and into "obstinate" mode. I reserved "jerk" for the clear occasions of deviation intended to confound technique. It lowered my blood pressure and provided a better perspective with which to discuss uke waza. To your point, that is another great way to smile and say, "are you sure that's the pony on which you wanna ride for this race?"

Ultimately, the definition of roles is necessary to learning aiki. It's a science experiment - you don't go changing variables when you are trying to replicate results. Kata provides this structure and its purpose is different that kumite. To Hugh's point, eventually, you have to provide framework to get the serious learning. Randori exercise is a very difficult environment in which to remain consistent. Generally, you are supposed to improve your partner's aikido. Everyone who touches you should be better when they step off the mat. We begin and end each class with the pleasantries of asking for help and thanking our partners for helping us. Introspectively, if you wince when someone asks for help because you will not help them you need to re-think your perspective; or, you wince when someone thanks you for helping them because it is a hollow formality you need to re-think how you interact with your partner. I know people who have trained for years and never grasped this concept - why are we busting someone's chops that is new to aikido for likewise not being appropriately exposed? There's a reason why uke is often reserved for the senior partner...

As for the issue of self-defense... We promote a curriculum that is going to even the odds. Our primary PR is designed around the notion that just because someone is bigger, better, faster or stronger does not mean that have an advantage. If that is our claim, it is not unreasonable to infer a strong foundation for self-defense purposes. I think this is again a gap in the expectation of the prospective student and the ability in the dojo. There are individuals who practice aikido with a narrow gap between aikido and application-based fighting. There are people who cannot punch their way out of a paper bag. Large tent and all that.

Good aikido has foundation that can be applied to defend yourself. Some dojos provide a curriculum to build on that foundation. But not all dojos. There are other curriculum that are better tailored to specific application-oriented fighting and self-defense. Again, this is a not a 6-week program and I think we are talking about mis-managed expectations creating frustration.

I am more supportive of the "question everything." Somethings require less scrutiny, but some things require closer inspection, too. I think Katherine is 100% correct - you will get out what you put in. There is a huge difference between paradox and poor training. Aikido has enough of both. We come to aikido seeing something that we want to change. The dojo provides us the opportunity and the education to make that change.

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