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Old 06-18-2014, 10:36 AM   #1
cimerio
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ikyo - problems

i don't make the ikyo technique adequally.

my greatest difficult is project the uke's arm down. the uke don't down, don't bend the body.

some tip?
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Old 06-18-2014, 11:04 AM   #2
Janet Rosen
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Re: ikyo - problems

What does your teacher suggest?

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Old 06-18-2014, 11:07 AM   #3
sakumeikan
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Re: ikyo - problems

Quote:
Cimerio Santana wrote: View Post
i don't make the ikyo technique adequally.

my greatest difficult is project the uke's arm down. the uke don't down, don't bend the body.

some tip?
Hi Cimerio,
First I need more information.Do you have a problem doing ikkyo with everyone?Is it the same scenario namely uke does not lose posture?Are you a little guy trying to beat I big monster type person?What grade are you?Is your instructor unable to guide you here?Send me more info [even a video ]and I will see if I can pinpoint the reason why you fail.Last point , what attack causes you the difficulty?Give me all the details.Cheers, Joe.
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Old 06-18-2014, 07:04 PM   #4
robin_jet_alt
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Re: ikyo - problems

Quote:
Joe Curran wrote: View Post
Hi Cimerio,
First I need more information.Do you have a problem doing ikkyo with everyone?Is it the same scenario namely uke does not lose posture?Are you a little guy trying to beat I big monster type person?What grade are you?Is your instructor unable to guide you here?Send me more info [even a video ]and I will see if I can pinpoint the reason why you fail.Last point , what attack causes you the difficulty?Give me all the details.Cheers, Joe.
Like Joe said, we need more details. It would also help if you gave us some idea of the type of ikkyo that you are trying to achieve because there are several mechanisms that can make an ikkyo work, depending on the type of ikkyo that is being done.
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Old 06-19-2014, 07:07 AM   #5
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Re: ikyo - problems

Quote:
Janet Rosen wrote: View Post
What does your teacher suggest?
That. You can spend days trying to explain the problem to us, and we can spend weeks arguing about how to solve it. Or you can ask your teacher, who can probably spot the problem and tell you the fix in a matter of minutes at most.

It's another matter whether you can actually do what your teacher tells you...but the same applies to remote diagnosis via internet, too. Ask your teacher first.
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Old 06-19-2014, 09:07 AM   #6
cimerio
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Re: ikyo - problems

Quote:
Or you can ask your teacher, who can probably spot the problem and tell you the fix in a matter of minutes at most.
Quote:
What does your teacher suggest?
my teacher speak: repeat, repeat, until works (aikikai super traditional)

the failure does not necessarily occur with the strongest. The problem: not all resists the same way. some leave movement occurs without resistance.
when there is resistance, I can not keep the body of the uke in the same vein of the arm.
example: if I make ikyo in the the right arm of the uke -> my right hand low his fist, but my left hand can not low the rest of the arm.
if I put my left hand nearest the shoulder, the pressure on him will be stronger?
advised me to stay as close to the body of the uke?

correct mode e my wrong mode (final position):
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Old 06-19-2014, 09:33 AM   #7
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Re: ikyo - problems

Well...I think it's still going to come down to basic principles, and not details of what hand is where (which are pretty futile to try and sort out via the internet). In ikkyo you have to control the elbow. For any attack (and any uke), there's a perfect moment to do this. If uke is slow or not strong or not resisting or not paying attention, you may still be able to take control of the elbow even if you miss that moment. If uke is strong and wants to resist, and you have missed the moment to control the elbow, you are going to have a hard time getting ikkyo. So, rather than figuring out new and different ways to force the technique on a non-compliant uke, I suggest looking at your timing. All aikido techniques depend on finding or creating or going to an opening -- if you try to force a technique without an opening, you're wrestling. "You can't make beef stew out of a chicken bone", as my sensei likes to say.
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Old 06-19-2014, 09:35 AM   #8
David Yap
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Re: ikyo - problems

Quote:
Cimerio Santana wrote: View Post
my teacher speak: repeat, repeat, until works (aikikai super traditional)

the failure does not necessarily occur with the strongest. The problem: not all resists the same way. some leave movement occurs without resistance.
when there is resistance, I can not keep the body of the uke in the same vein of the arm.
example: if I make ikyo in the the right arm of the uke -> my right hand low his fist, but my left hand can not low the rest of the arm.
if I put my left hand nearest the shoulder, the pressure on him will be stronger?
advised me to stay as close to the body of the uke?

correct mode e my wrong mode (final position):
What you need is more hips turning movement to bring your hands to be leveled with each other. My two sens.
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Old 06-19-2014, 09:54 AM   #9
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Re: ikyo - problems

Quote:
Cimerio Santana wrote: View Post
my teacher speak: repeat, repeat, until works (aikikai super traditional)

the failure does not necessarily occur with the strongest. The problem: not all resists the same way. some leave movement occurs without resistance.
when there is resistance, I can not keep the body of the uke in the same vein of the arm.
example: if I make ikyo in the the right arm of the uke -> my right hand low his fist, but my left hand can not low the rest of the arm.
if I put my left hand nearest the shoulder, the pressure on him will be stronger?
advised me to stay as close to the body of the uke?

correct mode e my wrong mode (final position):
Main reason is because you don't keep unbalanced your uke all way down. In one moment he recovers his balance, relax (or stiff ) his arm and then you can't manipulate his arm correctly to put him down.
My advice would be using two vector of force at the same time. One that goes through his hips (you create it by pushing with your hips toward his hips) and the second is cutting motion of kesagiri with both of your arms. Both vectors must be applied simultaneously from the moment of first contact and maintained until attacker is down. Additionally, to manipulate his elbow correctly you have you grab it from the bottom, this way your elbow is under his elbow all time and you can push it with your elbow through all technique.
Here you have ikkyo omote:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RP8MK...layer_embedded

and ikkyo ura:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_pkw1...layer_embedded

Nagababa

ask for divine protection Ame no Murakumo Kuki Samuhara no Ryuo
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Old 06-19-2014, 12:42 PM   #10
sakumeikan
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Re: ikyo - problems

Quote:
Cimerio Santana wrote: View Post
my teacher speak: repeat, repeat, until works (aikikai super traditional)

the failure does not necessarily occur with the strongest. The problem: not all resists the same way. some leave movement occurs without resistance.
when there is resistance, I can not keep the body of the uke in the same vein of the arm.
example: if I make ikyo in the the right arm of the uke -> my right hand low his fist, but my left hand can not low the rest of the arm.
if I put my left hand nearest the shoulder, the pressure on him will be stronger?
advised me to stay as close to the body of the uke?

correct mode e my wrong mode (final position):
Dear Cimerio,
If your illustration is correct , you have got some basics incorrect.In your example ukes elbow is higher than his right hand.The fact is that the elbow has to receive enough pressure applied by whatever arm is nearer to uke, in a downward motion,while your hand which is controlling the wrist of uke, must be at a higher level.you first illustration shows this point clearly .Your own example is the reverse of the line drawing.
While timing is important , nothing wrong with an atemi to the dead side [the rib area/chin ] takes the intent away from uke thus giving you an opening to complete the waza. Some tough guys need a bit of gentle persuasion before they go down /bite the dust.cheers,, joe.
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Old 06-19-2014, 04:38 PM   #11
cimerio
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Re: ikyo - problems

thanks for the tips, my friends
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Old 06-19-2014, 05:51 PM   #12
Gerardo Torres
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Re: ikyo - problems

Ikkyo is so hard because it's so simple. There are a lot of technical video references and explanations on how to do ikkyo to a partner. I'd like to offer some thoughts on shomen uchi ikkyo with regards to what you could do with your own body (not your partner's) (I won't cover timing, taisabaki and other fundamental technical aspects you also need to consider):

1. I like to think of ikkyo as a sword cut. When lifting the sword, lead with your elbows (think of heavy elbows projecting or being stretched way down and forward; feel as if your humerus bone is being elongated down and forward toward's uke's feet). Move with knees projecting forward and down as well (think of femurs being elongated towards uke's feet). (When you feel these projections or elongations, do them gently and very small, not so hard or pronounced as to break your own posture.) Keep spine stretched all the time, head suspended up and tailbone dangling down. Eyes and focus well past your partner. Don't go straight to meet uke's arm otherwise you clash and end up force vs force. As you feel uke make contact with your arms, keep thinking under, under, under, under - but don't actually crouch, instead use the projections from your knees and elbows to go under uke and make them weak. Open the chest forward to add power and keep raising the sword.

2. As you reach the apex of the sword raise, your power should be "under" uke and uke should feel light/weak, otherwise you are going to have a really hard time moving them. If not I recommend checking if there was a loss of power along the way (posture, tension in the shoulders, etc.).

3. As you cut down, again lead with heavy elbows. Cut big, down and out. Engage your full back as you cut down. Don't pile your body weight on top of uke otherwise you'd be forcing yourself down and it'd be a passive force. Keep eyes and focus way past uke not on the arms. All through this point keep fingers open and extended as if there are rubber bands from fingers to belly. As you get over uke and uke's arm is close to your hip level then (not before)you grab to finish your osae waza.

1-2-3 should be one move, like a sword cut. Train slow with good uke.
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Old 06-20-2014, 02:12 PM   #13
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Re: ikyo - problems

I like seeing comments about visualization tricks during practice, even if I don't agree with the specifics of the visualizations in question. I just like the fact that it's seen as having a functional effect on the body, by controlling the directions of applied forces (rather than being fluffy nonsense).

Anyway - Szczepan, I like your comment about the 2 forces that make ikkyo. I personally think of this in more general terms, rather than your description of these 2 specific things. But for the specific case of ikkyo, my idea fairly closely matches yours. I was excited to read that.
But I'm surprised-- do you think the videos you posted show these 2 forces? I'd say the omote video very strongly demonstrates them, especially in the 2nd example at 13 seconds in. But, the ura video shows the "hip" one fizzling away.

Of course, in omote this "hip" area force vector strongly drives forward, and can end up displacing uke's position in a visually obvious way; whereas in ura it more subtly presses in. But, press in it must, even if not visually obvious.

It just seems to me that it stops pressing in, during the ura video.
What do you think?
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Old 06-20-2014, 04:36 PM   #14
Gerardo Torres
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Re: ikyo - problems

Some visualizations work for some people and not others. That's why it's important to train with different teachers/coaches until you find one with a model that has a good success rate. At my level I tend to favor concrete simple visualizations that lead us to experience tangible physical changes in our bodies, rather than the more abstract stuff.

I also like the idea of unbalancing uke via application of two or more forces simultaneously. That said I would not use my own hip as a driver or for unbalancing effect as seen in most ikkyo omote, kokyunage, etc. Moving from the hips or swinging the hips in any particular direction causes a lateral loss of power in our structure (that's just the way we're made). I personally prefer to keep hips stable as you move like in kenjutsu.

Last edited by Gerardo Torres : 06-20-2014 at 04:39 PM.
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Old 06-20-2014, 10:39 PM   #15
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Re: ikyo - problems

Quote:
Jonathan Wong wrote: View Post
I like seeing comments about visualization tricks during practice, even if I don't agree with the specifics of the visualizations in question. I just like the fact that it's seen as having a functional effect on the body, by controlling the directions of applied forces (rather than being fluffy nonsense).

Anyway - Szczepan, I like your comment about the 2 forces that make ikkyo. I personally think of this in more general terms, rather than your description of these 2 specific things. But for the specific case of ikkyo, my idea fairly closely matches yours. I was excited to read that.
But I'm surprised-- do you think the videos you posted show these 2 forces? I'd say the omote video very strongly demonstrates them, especially in the 2nd example at 13 seconds in. But, the ura video shows the "hip" one fizzling away.

Of course, in omote this "hip" area force vector strongly drives forward, and can end up displacing uke's position in a visually obvious way; whereas in ura it more subtly presses in. But, press in it must, even if not visually obvious.

It just seems to me that it stops pressing in, during the ura video.
What do you think?
Let's first put our discussion in correct context of this topic - a beginner is asking questions about very basic aspects of ikkyo. From my experience, any complicated explanation is useless, he will understand nothing at all. What is needed in such situation is a one general idea(lack of unbalancing) to give him a global direction for his future training and a simple physical solution that he can use immediately to unbalance attacker. That was my reasoning when I provided some advice.

Now, I used term 'vector of force' - it is not a 'trick' - it is a real geometrical line you can draw on the tatami relatively to the position of the line of attack and direction of the hips of attacker. You may call it visualization, I usually put the jo on the tatami to illustrate these lines, so students see it clearly.

These videos are used as a help to preparation 5th kyu test, to associate a movement with a name, and to get general idea what is difference between omote and ura., At this level I don't expect they will perfectly use these vectors.

Your questions are on more sophisticated level. Ura version looks easy but in reality is very difficult for me. The reason is - both vectors exist, but inside of the spiral that going down. So while nage turns his hips to create a spiral,he is pushing attacker arm outside using a lock, to 'catapult' his hips outside of this spiral.
It is true that nage hips are not pressing much attacker hips - ura version has, as a base, not to disturb too much attack, rather keep company to it. This is done to not display too early nage intentions.

Another foundation of ura is to create with a spiral kind of 'black hole' where weight of attacker will push his body. So the use of the vectors much take it in consideration.

Sorry for complicated answer.

Nagababa

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Old 06-20-2014, 10:50 PM   #16
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Re: ikyo - problems

Quote:
Gerardo Torres wrote: View Post
Some visualizations work for some people and not others. That's why it's important to train with different teachers/coaches until you find one with a model that has a good success rate. At my level I tend to favor concrete simple visualizations that lead us to experience tangible physical changes in our bodies, rather than the more abstract stuff.

I also like the idea of unbalancing uke via application of two or more forces simultaneously. That said I would not use my own hip as a driver or for unbalancing effect as seen in most ikkyo omote, kokyunage, etc. Moving from the hips or swinging the hips in any particular direction causes a lateral loss of power in our structure (that's just the way we're made). I personally prefer to keep hips stable as you move like in kenjutsu.
Your remark is correct, but I don't believe it is helpful for beginner level. First they have to use hips in very exaggerated way simply to learn how to use it.Later on, move of the hips tends to be smaller and smaller while still preserving efficiency of the technique.
From my experience, keeping hips always stable right from the beginning very often leads to stiffness of whole body.

Nagababa

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Old 06-21-2014, 04:24 PM   #17
JW
 
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Re: ikyo - problems

Quote:
Szczepan Janczuk wrote: View Post
What is needed in such situation is a one general idea(lack of unbalancing) to give him a global direction for his future training and a simple physical solution that he can use immediately to unbalance attacker. That was my reasoning when I provided some advice.
I agree, and let me be clear, I meant to "second" your advice. My post meant to say that I thought the 2nd video didn't follow the posted advice as well as the first, not that I disagree with the advice itself.

OK well as far as OP question is concerned-- the thread (and other ikkyo threads) has already done as much good as is possible on the net, I suspect. Your advice sounds good and with Curran shihan's advice and others' posted, it seems the OP is pretty nicely addressed.

In other words, beyond this point, this is intended as interesting (? to me anyway) discussion that has come up, beyond the OP's initial introduction of the topic. Should this be a different thread? I'm sorry if posting this is a bad judgement call. It's just net discussion.
___________________________

As to why I used the term "trick" above:
Physically, a force only has 3 parameters: location, direction, and magnitude. So as a simple example, a tegatana contact near the elbow in ikkyo is close to a single point of contact. So, that is the location. Direction and magnitude have one value each, at each moment of time. (one value each, not two)
So the question is how do you manage or control the force there, over the course of the technique. Keeping 2 directions of force in mind, as a guiding principle for what you are doing, is simply a mental method of control (a "trick"). In fact, there is only one net force produced at each point of contact, not two. What I mean is that whatever directions you keep in your mind are just tricks that change how you manage your body (and the hundreds of forces that your body is producing inside, in order to produce your net applied force). Let's face it, nage and uke's hips don't touch in ikkyo. So there is no real force there.

A person might argue that any real force at a point of contact is the sum of some number of real forces you produce. In fact I agree. But it isn't two, it's probably hundreds! Each muscle produces a force. Even passive tissues like bone, skin, or connective tissue (and the floor too) produce force when pressed or pulled. Abdominal air pressure can provide force in any direction that it gets pressed from.

So-- as much as you can argue that the force you produce is (for example) the sum of a hip-to-hip vector ("vector A") and a tangential elbow vector ("vector B"), I can argue that it is the sum of some arbitrary number of totally different vectors, with meaningless directions. It's just analytical math, neither point of view is more correct, because they both have the same resultant sum.

I contend that the workload of those 2 constant vectors is in fact being distributed across your body in a freely changing manner through the course of the technique. Thus there are not 2 specific, real forces that exist in nature that correspond to your A and B. Instead, there is a single net force at any moment in time, and it is controlled over time by you by paying attention to the idea of these 2 vectors. Thus I said "trick." And of course I was referring to Gerardo's visualizations as well.

Doubley sorry for my complicated answer!
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Old 06-21-2014, 08:47 PM   #18
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Re: ikyo - problems

Quote:
Szczepan Janczuk wrote: View Post
Your remark is correct, but I don't believe it is helpful for beginner level. First they have to use hips in very exaggerated way simply to learn how to use it.Later on, move of the hips tends to be smaller and smaller while still preserving efficiency of the technique.
From my experience, keeping hips always stable right from the beginning very often leads to stiffness of whole body.
I don't agree with this at all. Moving in the manner Geraldo describes is a teachable skill that anyone can learn, no matter how many years they've been doing aikido, and it doesn't involve moving from the hips at all. In fact probably much easier to teach beginners than someone who had spent years of their budo career (such as me) generating power from the hips. I just don't see the point of teaching something that's just....wrong, only to have them spend even more time unlearning it later.
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Old 06-22-2014, 12:19 PM   #19
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Re: ikyo - problems

Mary said, "It's another matter whether you can actually do what your teacher tells you..."

No kidding. I resemble that remark, LOL! Still having problems doing what teachers says to do, even after all these years.

I find it interesting that the kanji character for kuzushi illustrates a mountain falling on a house.
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