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Old 06-05-2014, 02:20 PM   #76
RonRagusa
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Re: YouTube: Kanaya Hirotaka Shihan

Quote:
David Soroko wrote: View Post
Another demo, this is Saito Morihiro sensei doing a "lecture" style presentation the subject beeing Irimi. The ukes cooperate fully by taking morotedori, katatedori, ryotedori etc... to facilitate the demonstration. This doesn't take away from the sharpness, severity and martial integrity of the presentation.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IxMJeZp1SvQ
Sharpness... yes, severity... yes. Martial integrity? By what criteria are you judging the martial integrity of what's being shown in that demo? The ukes don't resist, they don't follow up their attacks, they over commit. It seems that you are equating martial integrity with the fact that Saito sensei is throwing his ukes with a lot of force.

I understand that it's a demonstration but so is what's being shown in the OP's videos. It's too bad we can't hear what Kanaya Shihan is saying; context might make the images more meaningful. In any event, both the Kanaya and Saito videos have in common: they are demonstrations and the ukes are clearly cooperating with their teachers. I think it's equally obvious that both teachers are presenting different ideas and using Aikido as a vehicle to illustrate their thoughts.

Ron

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Old 06-05-2014, 02:22 PM   #77
PeterR
 
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Re: YouTube: Kanaya Hirotaka Shihan

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Cliff Judge wrote: View Post
Lately I have been enjoying this aspect of Aikido the most, when I can get it.
Wasn't Bruce Lee big on ballroom dancing?

I've used the dance analogy many times to get a point across - usually about zanshin.

Peter Rehse Shodokan Aikido
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Old 06-05-2014, 04:57 PM   #78
Carl Thompson
 
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Re: YouTube: Kanaya Hirotaka Shihan

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Ron Ragusa wrote: View Post
The ukes don't resist, they don't follow up their attacks, they over commit. It seems that you are equating martial integrity with the fact that Saito sensei is throwing his ukes with a lot of force.
Can the ukes really resist or follow up their attacks? I never trained with Saito Sensei, but from what I can tell, the ukes are getting launched despite requisite resistance and readiness to counter. I also don't get what you're saying about over-commitment in attacks. By the end of the clip, it is Saito who is initiating the technique, before they can even start an attack. At the beginning they are showing kotai-form with the morote-dori. At worst I'd say one uke accidentally leans forward a bit too much to make it harder for Saito (dangerous for the uke, since he's open to a strike). Later, they progress to ryutai-form. I know Saito did lots of training for proper attacks and not over-committing was included as part of the drill for kokyu (for example, if you miss, you should never be off-balance if you're using kokyu).

It looks to me like "proper" resistance would be futile at any stage here while what was shown in the Kanaya video would fall apart if he were grabbed the same way by either of Saito's uke.

The dance-like, cooperative practice in the Kanaya video would not cultivate the same martial principles that were shown in the Saito video.
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Old 06-05-2014, 09:56 PM   #79
hughrbeyer
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Re: YouTube: Kanaya Hirotaka Shihan

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Cliff Judge wrote: View Post
...One thing that I see time and time again in Saito Sensei videos is his uke kicking their legs up into the air to take a fall.
Let me kick off this remark for my response, since it illustrates a point I want to make.

I've found myself "kicking up my legs" when taking ukemi from my sensei, and it's not to make him look good. It's because he's drawn me out and I know, from bitter experience, that the next move is a fist to the face. The most important thing in my mind at that point is to get my face out of range. Letting go isn't an option--his fist is already moving face-ward. So the flashy ukemi is really just self-defense--it's just that since the fist-to-the-face movement is never completed, it looks like compliance.

It is true that there's a social compact here. I deliver one attack, with full intent, and I protect myself after the attack. I don't deliver a second followup attack (as a boxer would); I don't go all rigid and block tori's response (because that would leave me open in a million ways, but tori would have to alter his technique which does not make for a clean demo or clean practice); and I don't just noodle out of there (which is martially stupid).

So the question Cliff raised is very much on point--if uke delivers an attack and then just hangs out waiting for tori's response, that's not good. Perhaps tori, for demo purposes, is separating the initial de-ai from the technique which follows. Fine, but I'd prefer to see uke visibly off-balance at that point. (Again, the social compact is that uke does not shuffle their feet to correct their balance, or do other moves that would not be possible at real speed.) I don't see that in these videos.

At the other end of the spectrum, the initial Kanaya videos show uke off balance from the first moment--sometimes before. Maybe uke is tanking. Maybe uke is responding flexibly to what tori is doing. Maybe uke is sensitive enough to respond before tori makes contact. I dunno, that's the limitation of video.

My bet is that Kanaya is showing some real skill and exaggerating it for the camera. He's taking what's really internal and making it external so people can see it--which, paradoxically, means it's no longer real. And his uke is showing some skill in being able to stay connected in even totally compromised positions, even though again it's exaggerated for the cameras. The danger for both is that they get so enamored of the exaggeration that they mistake it for the real thing.

[This post brought to you by Green Flash Brewing Company Trippel Ale. Any grammatical or spelling errors, or logical inconsistencies, or general incoherence are the entire responsibility of Green Flash Brewing.]

Evolution doesn't prove God doesn't exist, any more than hammers prove carpenters don't exist.
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Old 06-05-2014, 10:03 PM   #80
hughrbeyer
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Re: YouTube: Kanaya Hirotaka Shihan

P.S. Aargh, once again bit by the forum's pagination. I blame it on Green Flash. Just to say I think Carl's points are very well taken also, especially the progression from kotai to ryutai. Where we differ is that I think the original video shows enough hints of advanced, real skill that I think they've moved beyond kotai, but that's a guess. Saito Sensei's demonstration of the progression is valuable.

Evolution doesn't prove God doesn't exist, any more than hammers prove carpenters don't exist.
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Old 06-06-2014, 05:52 AM   #81
sorokod
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Re: YouTube: Kanaya Hirotaka Shihan

Quote:
Ron Ragusa wrote: View Post
Sharpness... yes, severity... yes. Martial integrity? By what criteria are you judging the martial integrity of what's being shown in that demo? The ukes don't resist, they don't follow up their attacks, they over commit. It seems that you are equating martial integrity with the fact that Saito sensei is throwing his ukes with a lot of force.

I understand that it's a demonstration but so is what's being shown in the OP's videos. It's too bad we can't hear what Kanaya Shihan is saying; context might make the images more meaningful. In any event, both the Kanaya and Saito videos have in common: they are demonstrations and the ukes are clearly cooperating with their teachers. I think it's equally obvious that both teachers are presenting different ideas and using Aikido as a vehicle to illustrate their thoughts.

Ron
Quote:
By what criteria are you judging the martial integrity of what's being shown in that demo?
The following works for me.

In a physical conflict, the sides attempt to achieve a goal while minimising damage, this imposes constraints on what is reasonable and possible.

Having integrity is to recognise and operate within those constraints.

Quote:
I understand that it's a demonstration but so is what's being shown in the OP's videos
That is true, in the same sense that a meal at McDonalds and a meal in a Michelin stared restaurant are both meals.

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Old 06-06-2014, 09:18 AM   #82
Cliff Judge
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Re: YouTube: Kanaya Hirotaka Shihan

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Carl Thompson wrote: View Post
The dance-like, cooperative practice in the Kanaya video would not cultivate the same martial principles that were shown in the Saito video.
Why do you call that "practice"?
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Old 06-06-2014, 09:25 AM   #83
Cliff Judge
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Re: YouTube: Kanaya Hirotaka Shihan

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Hugh Beyer wrote: View Post
My bet is that Kanaya is showing some real skill and exaggerating it for the camera. He's taking what's really internal and making it external so people can see it
In my opinion, this is exactly what Aikido is and what it is best at. That's why I think these demos are pretty good.
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Old 06-07-2014, 05:21 AM   #84
Carsten Möllering
 
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Re: YouTube: Kanaya Hirotaka Shihan

It seems to me we simply have different images of what aikidō is and as a consequence what it should look like.
- So, I like the most forms of aikidō that looke like kind of taijiquan or qigong or yoga. Something like that: Smooth, gentle, calm. Showing movement and stillness as one, the work of in and yo, tanden, aiki within tori ... things like that.
So Saito sensei or the Tomiki video simply don't match my - not saying the - image of aikidō that is in me and what I am striving for.

Also we seem to have different images of what "martial" means therefor do not agree about how it can be spotted watching an embu.
- I know from experience that this soft and tender way of connecting to a struggling, fighting opponent can actually bring him to the ground against his will. And I know this not only from playing around in the dōjō. In my case being very small and not very strong, it even works more reliable then other methods. So maybe I indentify certain things as "martial" that others don't

Finally I think we have different oppinions of the relevance of that martial aspect besides the other facets of aikidō.
- For me by now it is most important to see a spiritual dimension when a teacher demonstrates. I expect not to see only his physical body, but also his energetic and his spiritual body. I try to get which feeling his embu creates in me: Does it make me calm and centered or does he bring my qi up or disperse it?
To me the martial aspect of aikidō is not the only aspect. And - at least currently - not the most important.

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Cliff Judge wrote: View Post
Lately I have been enjoying this aspect of Aikido the most, when I can get it.
Yes!
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