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Old 05-25-2014, 12:19 PM   #51
PeterR
 
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Re: YouTube: Kanaya Hirotaka Shihan

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Hugh Beyer wrote: View Post
I'm reminded of the story about O-Sensei doing a demo and choosing a high-ranked student to be uke, and that student deciding that attacking sincerely meant attacking full-force, with everything he had. The result being that O-Sensei had to do his techniques for real, and he later bawled the uke out because he wasn't able to show things the way he wanted to show them.

So even O-Sensei, apparently, was interested in showing aspects of his art which were hard or impossible to see in a (more) real self-defense situation. The attacks had to be dialed back a bit in order for him to show them.

Which suggests that in demos like the one in the OP, we shouldn't just be looking for street-fighting level of self defense. If the teacher is actually trying to show something, perhaps some level of collusion is necessary--even if the 'collusion' is just an agreement that the attacks will be less than full-on.
That would be Ohba (those damm Judo guys again) who commented afterwards the Ueshiba was a little stiff. Ohba acknowledged Ueshiba's mastery afterwards as did at least one of the observers, the latter going a long way to calming Ueshiba down. I really don't think that Ueshiba was trying to show anything other than his skill in the most favorable light and an unpredictable uke certainly doesn't help. I never actually understood from any of the stories whether the type of attack was unplanned or just the level of force but I am sure it was not an expectation of tanking that changed. This was a long time before Ueshiba reached an age where this was expected to be done.

The relationship between uke and tori in the video is far from that situation but I do find may observations a little hypocritical. Condemnation seeing it on one hand and refusing to see it on the other. It is (to paraphrase another poster) not my cup of tea but I do see good demonstration of control through body positioning. Putting your body in a position where uke must overextend or pull up short is an art form in itself and very hard to accomplish.

Peter Rehse Shodokan Aikido
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Old 05-26-2014, 02:36 PM   #52
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Re: YouTube: Kanaya Hirotaka Shihan

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David Soroko wrote: View Post
With the general agreement that the demonstrated is not "street-fighting level of self defines", will not stop a burglar and, in my opinion, will not be able to subdue an upset toddler - what is being demonstrated? I am looking for something more substential then general statements about "principals" and "flow of energy".
You are interested in knowing what is being demonstrated, but not if it is what is actually being demonstrated?
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Old 05-27-2014, 01:51 AM   #53
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Re: YouTube: Kanaya Hirotaka Shihan

I am interested in your opinion on both.

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Old 06-03-2014, 04:16 AM   #54
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Re: YouTube: Kanaya Hirotaka Shihan

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That would be Ohba (those damm Judo guys again) who commented afterwards the Ueshiba was a little stiff. Ohba acknowledged Ueshiba's mastery afterwards as did at least one of the observers, the latter going a long way to calming Ueshiba down. I really don't think that Ueshiba was trying to show anything other than his skill in the most favorable light and an unpredictable uke certainly doesn't help. I never actually understood from any of the stories whether the type of attack was unplanned or just the level of force but I am sure it was not an expectation of tanking that changed. This was a long time before Ueshiba reached an age where this was expected to be done.

The relationship between uke and tori in the video is far from that situation but I do find may observations a little hypocritical. Condemnation seeing it on one hand and refusing to see it on the other. It is (to paraphrase another poster) not my cup of tea but I do see good demonstration of control through body positioning. Putting your body in a position where uke must overextend or pull up short is an art form in itself and very hard to accomplish.
Answering my own post (bad) but this was posted on a Tomiki aikido study group page https://vimeo.com/97201380 and shows a very interesting demo with a flavor far removed from much of what we see today. This is something we could use a return to - less compliant uke's - techniques that actually look like they are working.

Peter Rehse Shodokan Aikido
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Old 06-03-2014, 09:56 AM   #55
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Re: YouTube: Kanaya Hirotaka Shihan

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Answering my own post (bad) but this was posted on a Tomiki aikido study group page https://vimeo.com/97201380 and shows a very interesting demo with a flavor far removed from much of what we see today. This is something we could use a return to - less compliant uke's - techniques that actually look like they are working.
These are certainly more lively, serious attacks. The initial timing and spacing seems to be entirely unplanned. I think this is one of the best ways to do regular training.

But as far as demonstration goes - whether embu or more of a "lecture" such as a shihan might do at a seminar - I think there are issues.

First of all, the students are going to see technique, technique technique. They are going to break off and practice the arm bar, or the choke, or the leg sweep. If the teacher is trying to get them to shift their weight a certain way, or take their uke's balance in a certain way, he is going to have to deal with the fact that most people on the mat are not going to be listening to him. This is a problem, and I believe that the type of "that would never actually work" demo we are debating in this thread is the solution that has evolved.

Second, less of a concern perhaps, but I am still seeing the uke in this 1956 Tomiki video throwing one attack and then hanging out and waiting to get thrown / dealt with. Tomiki is not waiting around very long and acting like he somehow stunned uke into hanging out, but uke is still doing one attack, then expecting to get thrown. He is not engaging as a fighter would. Obviously this is still a demonstration and not a match, but I am just saying, people from fighting arts that don't like kata are still going to gripe about that. It's not truly getting away from "compliant uke syndrome" if you think that's a problem.
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Old 06-03-2014, 10:10 AM   #56
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Re: YouTube: Kanaya Hirotaka Shihan

A demo will always demand a certain compliance/cooperation between uke and tori. That is a given.

How much we should expect and be happy with - is another question.

Peter Rehse Shodokan Aikido
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Old 06-03-2014, 10:15 AM   #57
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Re: YouTube: Kanaya Hirotaka Shihan

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Cliff Judge wrote: View Post
These are certainly more lively, serious attacks. The initial timing and spacing seems to be entirely unplanned.
The attacks are faster, yes. Serious? Since uke doesn't follow up with anything after each grab and over commits to each strike, I don't think so. And the timing and spacing are totally left up to uke since nage just stands there until uke has launched his attack despite the fact that uke plainly intends to do something more than just shake hands. Uke's body language and movement clearly foreshadow his intent.

Ron

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Old 06-03-2014, 10:29 AM   #58
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Re: YouTube: Kanaya Hirotaka Shihan

Well if it isn't clear - this is the Kodokan Goshin Jutsu kata being demonstrated.

Being a kata there is a defined role for uke and tori - it is not a fight.

Peter Rehse Shodokan Aikido
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Old 06-03-2014, 11:14 AM   #59
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Re: YouTube: Kanaya Hirotaka Shihan

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Peter Rehse wrote: View Post
Answering my own post (bad) but this was posted on a Tomiki aikido study group page https://vimeo.com/97201380 and shows a very interesting demo with a flavor far removed from much of what we see today. This is something we could use a return to - less compliant uke's - techniques that actually look like they are working.
This video is fantastic - I had not seen this video before. Thanks for posting it.

I do not see a problem with an attack and waiting for the technique to be demonstrated. For the purpose of education it is important to have the Uke receive the technique as it were. What this video shows however is the mechanic and physics of the technique being applied with "intent". Both parties benefit from this type of training as do we from being able to enjoy it decades later.

Respectfully

Chris

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Old 06-03-2014, 11:23 AM   #60
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Re: YouTube: Kanaya Hirotaka Shihan

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Peter Rehse wrote: View Post
Being a kata there is a defined role for uke and tori - it is not a fight.
So what is the difference you want to point out in regard to the video that startedt this thread?
Sorry, but I didn't get your point here.
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Old 06-03-2014, 11:38 AM   #61
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Re: YouTube: Kanaya Hirotaka Shihan

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So what is the difference you want to point out in regard to the video that startedt this thread?
Sorry, but I didn't get your point here.
Well the thread has evolved so perhaps the connection is not so direct between the videos at the beginning- but I think the degree of uke compliance is the most telling. The feeling I get with the Tomiki video is that uke is being done rather than uke doing. My general opinion is that with many demonstrations uke is working too hard to make tori look good.

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Old 06-03-2014, 01:02 PM   #62
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Re: YouTube: Kanaya Hirotaka Shihan

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Ron Ragusa wrote: View Post
The attacks are faster, yes. Serious? Since uke doesn't follow up with anything after each grab and over commits to each strike, I don't think so. And the timing and spacing are totally left up to uke since nage just stands there until uke has launched his attack despite the fact that uke plainly intends to do something more than just shake hands. Uke's body language and movement clearly foreshadow his intent.

Ron
Even if you addressed some good points, on that kind of attacks nage has to do some work to throw or control attacker, and not any amount of mysterious aiki bunny hands waving will help much LOL

I'd love to see all you KI masters with uke like that Immediately all Ki myths would fall down with big noise...

Nagababa

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Old 06-03-2014, 01:42 PM   #63
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Re: YouTube: Kanaya Hirotaka Shihan

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Peter Rehse wrote: View Post
The feeling I get with the Tomiki video is that uke is being done rather than uke doing. My general opinion is that with many demonstrations uke is working too hard to make tori look good.
Ahh thank, get what you mean, it figures.

This ist really, really interesting!!!
My impression - it's just me an my horizon and just my impression - is exactly the other way round!

In the goshin jutsu no kata I see an uke who adapt to the needs of tori, so he can perform the kata in a good way.
In the videos that started the thread I see an uke who does not know, what will happen and who has to be (and is) moved by tori.

Interesting! Thank you for posting and commenting the Tomiki vid!
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Old 06-03-2014, 02:30 PM   #64
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Re: YouTube: Kanaya Hirotaka Shihan

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Szczepan Janczuk wrote: View Post
I'd love to see all you KI masters with uke like that
You might want to drop the "you" from the above sentence. I'm not and have never claimed to be a "KI" master, whatever that may be.

Ron

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Old 06-03-2014, 02:52 PM   #65
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Re: YouTube: Kanaya Hirotaka Shihan

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You might want to drop the "you" from the above sentence. I'm not and have never claimed to be a "KI" master, whatever that may be.

Ron
Sure, it was not addressed to you personally.

Nagababa

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Old 06-03-2014, 02:57 PM   #66
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Re: YouTube: Kanaya Hirotaka Shihan

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Szczepan Janczuk wrote: View Post
Sure, it was not addressed to you personally.
Thanks for the clarification Szczepan.

Ron

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Old 06-04-2014, 01:08 PM   #67
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Re: YouTube: Kanaya Hirotaka Shihan

The Goshin Jutsu kata have always seemed quirky to me. Uke is not propelling himself along according o what tori is doing, no. But in some of the kata there is this one-two thing where tori will take uke's balance, then extend him out. That seems like an opening to me. The koryu jujutsu I have trained in tends to not have that, it will be one complex movement.
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Old 06-05-2014, 04:44 AM   #68
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Re: YouTube: Kanaya Hirotaka Shihan

Another demo, this is Saito Morihiro sensei doing a "lecture" style presentation the subject beeing Irimi. The ukes cooperate fully by taking morotedori, katatedori, ryotedori etc... to facilitate the demonstration. This doesn't take away from the sharpness, severity and martial integrity of the presentation.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IxMJeZp1SvQ

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Old 06-05-2014, 07:18 AM   #69
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Re: YouTube: Kanaya Hirotaka Shihan

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Peter Rehse wrote: View Post
My general opinion is that with many demonstrations uke is working too hard to make tori look good.
In the entrying videos you can see a uke, who is bothering to follow toris movement and to hold the contact in a very limber way, not everybody is able to do it like this. So his reaction is one part due to his flexibility. On the other Hand he is is well-rehearsed to the movements of his teacher, so there will be no real surprising actions for him.

If uke is compliant in this special way, tori can do things that make the demonstration look like it does, but to move uke in this way with little or no effort is also not so easy as it looks like.
Its just a kind of practice that helps to achieve body skills, not a demonstration of magical power.
Wheather tori could do it in the same way with a stiff and uncompliant uke, is not really important, of course he couldn't. Maybe he would impress uke in some way, but it certainly wouldn't look like it does in the video.

It is not easy to compare this with the tomiki-video, but in this one tori has to deal with real attacking force, whereas in the first Videos uke does nothing than react to toris movements.
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Old 06-05-2014, 07:53 AM   #70
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Re: YouTube: Kanaya Hirotaka Shihan

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Markus Rohde wrote: View Post
In the entrying videos you can see a uke, who is bothering to follow toris movement and to hold the contact in a very limber way, not everybody is able to do it like this. So his reaction is one part due to his flexibility. On the other Hand he is is well-rehearsed to the movements of his teacher, so there will be no real surprising actions for him.

If uke is compliant in this special way, tori can do things that make the demonstration look like it does, but to move uke in this way with little or no effort is also not so easy as it looks like.
Its just a kind of practice that helps to achieve body skills, not a demonstration of magical power.
Wheather tori could do it in the same way with a stiff and uncompliant uke, is not really important, of course he couldn't. Maybe he would impress uke in some way, but it certainly wouldn't look like it does in the video.

It is not easy to compare this with the tomiki-video, but in this one tori has to deal with real attacking force, whereas in the first Videos uke does nothing than react to toris movements.
Markus;

If you read back to my first posting on the vids I say pretty much the same thing. I see value in that sort of demonstration and training and my real problem is for those that see compliance on one hand and say how terrible it is and then refuse to see it elsewhere. The truth is I saw the Tomiki video and wanted to post it somewhere, anywhere, and this thread seemed like a good choice.

In both cases, uke has a role to play and success in my opinion is when it does not appear to be contrived. If uke looks like he is working too hard to make tori look good - then something is wrong. The Tomiki video shows, again in my opinion, a good example of where uke not being too obvious. Although if one looks hard, and as other people have pointed out, there are instances where he cold have done better. I thought the ushiro-ate was an obvious fall for example.

Peter Rehse Shodokan Aikido
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Old 06-05-2014, 08:35 AM   #71
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Re: YouTube: Kanaya Hirotaka Shihan

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In both cases, uke has a role to play and success in my opinion is when it does not appear to be contrived. If uke looks like he is working too hard to make tori look good - then something is wrong.
In the case that somebody wants to show that he can fight or control an offender, I agree completely.

But success measures according to what you want to present. If you want to show good movements, you depend on your Partner. So if I don't know the Intention, I can't assess what I see.
I only can say wheather I like it or not.
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Old 06-05-2014, 09:16 AM   #72
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Re: YouTube: Kanaya Hirotaka Shihan

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But success measures according to what you want to present. If you want to show good movements, you depend on your Partner.
Ah but then it becomes dance.

Peter Rehse Shodokan Aikido
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Old 06-05-2014, 09:53 AM   #73
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Re: YouTube: Kanaya Hirotaka Shihan

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Ah but then it becomes dance.
Yes it may look like, but dancing requires hard and intesive bodytraining also.

So one can practice different forms, the one for real fighting, and the other for training the body-skills that are needed.
We have in our training this differentiation, forms that can build up the connections in the body and open the Joints which are influenced by masmichi noros kinomichi, and forms for real application.
If you see only the "dancing-forms", you will see only half and get a limited impression.
Of course some people say it's dance, but our teacher takes it as a compliment, because it means for him we have a high quality of movement.
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Old 06-05-2014, 01:31 PM   #74
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Re: YouTube: Kanaya Hirotaka Shihan

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David Soroko wrote: View Post
Another demo, this is Saito Morihiro sensei doing a "lecture" style presentation the subject beeing Irimi. The ukes cooperate fully by taking morotedori, katatedori, ryotedori etc... to facilitate the demonstration. This doesn't take away from the sharpness, severity and martial integrity of the presentation.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IxMJeZp1SvQ
What is really so different between this demo and the ones of Kanaya Sensei?

Saito Sensei's ukes do not fully resist him. They do not let go of him. They don't try to reorganize themselves - which I admit is a rather silly thought.

One thing that I see time and time again in Saito Sensei videos is his uke kicking their legs up into the air to take a fall.

I believe that they do these things because they are taking part in a demonstration or teaching, and they in fact are offering themselves to Sensei so that he can clearly show the principal he is trying to illustrate. And because he wouldn't call them up if they acted as a real person would who was really trying to attack him, it would be rude and selfish and pointless. There is also the fact that it might hurt quite a bit more to not get yourself into a proper fall when Saito Sensei drops his weight on you...but that's assuming you've held on to him when he starts moving.

Anyway, to me that's pretty much the same interaction as what the original videos were showing.
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Old 06-05-2014, 01:36 PM   #75
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Re: YouTube: Kanaya Hirotaka Shihan

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Ah but then it becomes dance.
Lately I have been enjoying this aspect of Aikido the most, when I can get it.
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