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Old 01-28-2013, 11:58 PM   #26
sakumeikan
Dojo: Sakumeikan N.E. Aikkai .Newcastle upon Tyne.
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Re: Ukemi problems

Quote:
Janet Rosen wrote: View Post
Too many of us HAVE had shoulder separations and had to deal with the chronic repercussions or have seen newbies not come back after incurring shoulder separations for me to endorse this, Joe
Dear Janet, Robin,
The point I was making to the person who was asking about unbendable was this, namely rather than get caught in a debate about acquiring said unbendable arm, just check out certain areas eg protecting the head, rolling like a ball , watching out for shoulders /collar bones etc.I agree that any injury is counter productive and can lead to complications eg surgery , latent arthritis, pain.Sorry if I misled you with my guidelines.No need for anybody to endorse any view I express on this forum.I am not running for President of the U.S.A just tossing in a few comments which you may or may not agree with.Cannot please everybody even part of the time. Hope you are well,Joe,
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Old 01-29-2013, 04:57 AM   #27
robin_jet_alt
Join Date: Jun 2011
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Re: Ukemi problems

Quote:
Joe Curran wrote: View Post
Dear Janet, Robin,
The point I was making to the person who was asking about unbendable was this, namely rather than get caught in a debate about acquiring said unbendable arm, just check out certain areas eg protecting the head, rolling like a ball , watching out for shoulders /collar bones etc.I agree that any injury is counter productive and can lead to complications eg surgery , latent arthritis, pain.Sorry if I misled you with my guidelines.No need for anybody to endorse any view I express on this forum.I am not running for President of the U.S.A just tossing in a few comments which you may or may not agree with.Cannot please everybody even part of the time. Hope you are well,Joe,
Couldn't agree more. There are far more important things, and safety is paramount.
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Old 01-29-2013, 04:49 PM   #28
miso
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Re: Ukemi problems

The (excellent) links by Robin show someone who is already unafraid of falling.

If someone is having trouble at the start they should be on the crash-mats, if available. I've seen more people leave a club and never come back through bad introductions to a breakfall/ukemi. For beginners it requires specific, constant supervision and control.

A sound lack of fear with falling enables a student to practice more freely.

However these comments don't take into account that learning to roll/fall hurts, tricking gravity/fate takes some skill and it doesn't come cheap.

Worth having though.
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Old 01-29-2013, 06:47 PM   #29
robin_jet_alt
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Re: Ukemi problems

Quote:
Mark Johnston wrote: View Post
The (excellent) links by Robin show someone who is already unafraid of falling.

If someone is having trouble at the start they should be on the crash-mats, if available. I've seen more people leave a club and never come back through bad introductions to a breakfall/ukemi. For beginners it requires specific, constant supervision and control.

A sound lack of fear with falling enables a student to practice more freely.

However these comments don't take into account that learning to roll/fall hurts, tricking gravity/fate takes some skill and it doesn't come cheap.

Worth having though.
Yes, the second link in particular shows someone who is already unafraid. I should have mentioned that I wouldn't attempt any of the later exercises until I had mastered the earlier one. Crash mat is a good idea to get over fear.
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Old 01-30-2013, 04:46 PM   #30
miso
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Re: Ukemi problems

For rolling, I have found it's best to start total beginners very low, as has been said. Rolling from the knees progressing to rolling standing up but with the hips very low/hands on the ground and so on.

For breakfalls, the best practice seems to be a hip throw along the lines of koshi-nage with a high grade throwing as the beginners tend to thrash about a bit (or freeze). Lots of time to push them into the right shape as they drop.

There's a beauty in rolling that everyone can learn. There's always a couple of bits where it hurts.
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Old 02-02-2013, 10:24 AM   #31
amoeba
Dojo: Aikido Netzwerk
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Re: Ukemi problems

You don't need the crashmats though - we never had them in any of the clubs I've trained in and I've seen lots of people learn to roll, including some older and/or nor very sporty/confident ones and even some with physical disabilities. As long as you start low (from your knees or from a sitting position for backward rolls) and have a (competent) teacher watch you and correct you in the beginning, you should be completely fine. I've never seen any accidents from ukemi training (and that's including breakfalls).

For the forward roll I find it quite important to place your palm or the side of your hand on the floor, not the back. If you put the back, it'll be a lot less stable - leading to wrist and/or shoulder injuries should you crash on it.

Last edited by amoeba : 02-02-2013 at 10:24 AM. Reason: typo
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Old 02-02-2013, 06:56 PM   #32
hughrbeyer
Dojo: Shobu Aikido of Boston
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Re: Ukemi problems

Crashmats also deform in an awkward and confusing way. I wouldn't recommend them.

Evolution doesn't prove God doesn't exist, any more than hammers prove carpenters don't exist.
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Old 02-13-2013, 11:27 AM   #33
Helmarocka
Location: West Midlands
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Re: Ukemi problems

Hey,

I've been practicing rolls for a while now, and i've become a lot better at rolls from with my left hand fowards except my right hand ones are still sloppy, though i'm left handed, not to mention i do fencing so my left side is slightly more confident, also i'm struggling at backwards rolls still can someone help?
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Old 02-13-2013, 01:45 PM   #34
Cliff Judge
Dojo: Aikido Shobukan Dojo
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Re: Ukemi problems

You do NOT need to keep your eyes on the mat as you enter a roll. I guarantee you that it will neither steal your wallet nor run away. You need to tuck your head. Look back towards the wall opposite the one you are rolling toward.
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Old 02-13-2013, 02:20 PM   #35
Michael Douglas
Join Date: Mar 2006
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Re: Ukemi problems

Quote:
Gabriel Walton wrote: View Post
... i've had particular trouble with Forward and Backward Ukemi (i'm not sure of the correct names forgive me :L ) as whenever i lean foward on with my right arm foward when i go to roll my arm gives in and i faceplant the ground or the side of my back hits the mats, and i do the same thing with my backwards, i'm also left handed so i find performing ukemi fro this side unnatural (not to mention it hurts ) i'm not sure how to go about fixing this,could someone help me please??
If you do it at a faster speed and in a muddy field you will progress faster than on mats in your dojo.
You do have muddy fields around : your location says W.Midlands.
Also : don't let your arm buckle under you, get some vigour! Be the ball.
Left handed? Stop whingeing.
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Old 02-14-2013, 08:47 AM   #36
lbb
Location: Massachusetts
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Re: Ukemi problems

That's weird, I'm right-handed (very) and my left-hand rolls were easier for me. I'd like to think it's starting to even out, but certainly the right side took more work (and much more conscious thought).
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Old 02-14-2013, 10:13 PM   #37
KEM
Dojo: Aikido of Gainesville/ Gainesville, FL
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Re: Ukemi problems

Great replies particularly those suggesting you start from kneeling. You are new and need clear instructions on HOW to roll. When instructing teens I remind them that our 'monkey brains' are wired to send signals of panic when the brain gets signals of 'falling.' As you roll more from a low position your brain will adjust to the sensations and it will get better. Some people handle these conflicting neurological sensations better than others. Some Astronauts never get space sick...many do and they keep flying.
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Old 03-08-2013, 01:07 PM   #38
Phil Van Treese
Dojo: Tampa Judo and Aikido Dojo, Tampa, Fl
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Re: Ukemi problems

Easiest way to learn ukemi is to start from a kneeling position, 1 knee down and 1 knee up, and roll to the side that has the knee up. After gaining confidence you can do it from standing.
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Old 03-08-2013, 01:56 PM   #39
Basia Halliop
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Re: Ukemi problems

You can go even lower than that if you want... If you start with both knees down (toes up, kiza), one knee and shoulder pointed forward, tuck head down and towards back shoulder, use back hand for support as you lower your rolling shoulder all the way to the ground and place it on the mat, reach rolling arm under you, then push up with front leg to go over...

Hard to explain verbally but you can learn all the head tucking and diagonal contact across the back and rounding the body and the shape of a roll before you even get the rolling arm involved.
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Old 04-15-2013, 08:52 AM   #40
bklynjames
Dojo: NY Aikikai
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Re: Ukemi problems

One thing I notice with newer students is them throwing themselves. Ukemi needs to be free flowing. When you ready to fall try and bring your shoulder down as close as possible to the mat before rolling.
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Old 05-18-2013, 03:38 AM   #41
Helmarocka
Location: West Midlands
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Re: Ukemi problems

Thanks for all the helpful guidance, I have noticed that my Ukemi are still inconsistent as I'm still finding it tough to stop myself from collapsing on my on when rolling, as well as Backwards Ukemi, though I have found that it is sometimes easier when your moving faster before rolling,.
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Old 06-16-2013, 05:47 PM   #42
JP3
 
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Re: Ukemi problems

The post above about starting certain novices with a pronounced fear of falling (and you will be able to tell them almost right away) from not only down on one knee, but all the way down on both knees, hand-arm thrust back towards the opposite foot with head turned and tucked to allow the shoulder to actually start out ON the floor is an excellent tool we've used for some time with folks with falling fear.

There is no "fall" per se in this practice drill, yet they get the concept of the ball, and rolling as a ball, and they feel the line the body takes across the ground, yet there is no impact. Even starting on a single knee, if the lead arm collapses there is the possibility of a shoulder ding, so keep an eye out for that, too.

Once the student is doing the shoulder down rolls, and they've gotten to the point where they are obviously bored with them (might take 3 minutes or 3 weeks), then bring them up to a knee start, with the hands on the ground (hands, plural), then to a more fluid feeling hand edge or palm (depending on the theory your dojo uses to teach zempo kaiten ukemi), and then a transition to standing rolls is as simple (right...) as saying, "What you are doing kneeling, just do it standing up.

Some folks will nail it the first time, others might crash and burn. C&B causes the loss of students, so try to avoid it.

I find it interesting that the kanji character for kuzushi illustrates a mountain falling on a house.
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Old 06-17-2013, 12:40 PM   #43
Peter Wong
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Re: Ukemi problems

There's a few You Tube videos that may be helpful you.
The first "Instruction on teaching Mae Ukemi" by Nakayama Sensei. It addresses the unbendable arm. And Moonsensei:The art of ukemi #1 and The art of of ukemi/fundamental/Moonsensei. Both address back rolls.
Good luck and don't give up.
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Old 06-19-2013, 04:37 AM   #44
Darthcrane
 
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Re: Ukemi problems

I am beginner as well, slowly getting better. I just feel dizzy after a couple of front rolls but I guess that will get better with the time.

Thanks Peter for suggesting those great videos!

L.
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Old 06-21-2013, 02:34 AM   #45
PaulF
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Re: Ukemi problems

What Janet and Geoff said, start on one knee.

Being big, heavy and stiff I found ukemi awkward to start with, Donovan Waite's video was very helpful
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8OaicleoK4M

I also visualise my arm is a springy sapling

Get comfortable with forward rolls left and right before you worry about backwards rolls which I found much trickier.

Once you do get onto them the key is to remember your hands are going up to the opposite shoulder from the leg you first go down on and that is the shoulder you'll roll over. Also the feeling is not so much backwards as sideways/diagonal. Those were the two key points that helped me get it.

After a while you will find ukemi becomes one of the greatest pleasures in aikido, like a giant massage
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Old 06-21-2013, 12:51 PM   #46
Basia Halliop
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Re: Ukemi problems

"Get comfortable with forward rolls left and right before you worry about backwards rolls which I found much trickier"

Personally, I actually find that a lot of people find the back ones much easier (especially if you start from sitting). It seems to vary from person to person, though.
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Old 06-22-2013, 02:19 PM   #47
Peter Wong
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Re: Ukemi problems

You might try and get sensei, an instructor or a senior student to watch you do your rolls. Your problem(s) may just be sometimes simple like hand or foot placement. You don't want to get into bad habits.
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Old 03-11-2014, 03:19 AM   #48
Helmarocka
Location: West Midlands
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Re: Ukemi problems

Hey, I have been away from Aikido for almost a month and a half, due to outstanding commitments and studying, though having tried it out, my forward Ukemi seem to be passable, though there is a significant difference when i roll left arm forward,(which tends to have better form) than when I try it using my right arm. My back rolls are even worse due to lack of practise, the Videos you have provided are very helpful, hopefully I will do better in my first session back this week.
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Old 03-11-2014, 06:40 AM   #49
lbb
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Re: Ukemi problems

Gabriel, since you're now able to return to class, you are probably going to do better with hands-on instruction from someone who can see what you're doing and correct the mechanics, rather than a bunch of strangers guessing at what the problem may be over the internet. Remember that you're rusty and practice with caution, get in-person feedback and concentrate on correcting whatever's wrong.
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Old 03-23-2014, 03:56 AM   #50
GB-UK
 
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Re: Ukemi problems

This is a great thread! I'm returning to aikido after a long period of illness and the one area that I really sucked at was ukemi! This thread has given me a lot to think about in how I can gain more confidence in my ukemi! Thanks a lot.
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