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Old 02-12-2014, 10:00 AM   #176
Anjisan
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Ai symbol Re: does nikyo hurt?

Quote:
Christopher Li wrote: View Post
He certainly may have enjoyed doing it like that (he was something of a showman the times that I saw him in Tokyo) - but that doesn't mean that was the only way he ever did it, or that his statement about Morihei Ueshiba is any less interesting.

Best,

Chris
Agreed! However, that was Osensei that Shioda was speaking of after all and while most of us mortals strive to minimize the reliance on pain ( I know I have over the years)-- if pain does result, that doesn't make such an application of nikyo an inferior application. Perhaps less "interesting" to some but not inferior and perhaps just as effective depending like everything else on who is applying it and in what context.

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Jason
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Old 02-12-2014, 10:45 AM   #177
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Ki Symbol Re: does nikyo hurt?

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Rupert Atkinson wrote: View Post
We're talking nikyo, right. Only the most painful lock on the planet ...

If you can control them with a nikyo shape without pain, all well and good, but why even bother with nikyo shape then ... just push them over using your off-balancing skill.
I agree with you but as I have said, I do try to minimize the amount needed to effectively gain control of Uke. Its all about connection, but pain will often be there to some degree if one ever has to leave the contrived and safe atmosphere of the dojo or the seminar. Plenty of Shihan seem to actively use at least some pain intentionally. I really don't think Shioda was lying in his own book. When I watch Seagal sensei apply nikkyo on video at least it looks like pain plays some role. Now not necessarily the primary means of gaining control but it appears to be there. I will say this, when I at least have experienced a high level Aikido instructor or Shihan apply nikyo to me, the unbalance me enough before they apply the technique and it goes on so fast and to such degree that you have No Time to counter it. And this is not even bringing utemi into the equation prior to applying nikyo which most of us do not want to rely on I understand.
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Old 02-12-2014, 11:47 AM   #178
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Re: does nikyo hurt?

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Jason Rudolph wrote: View Post
Agreed! However, that was Osensei that Shioda was speaking of after all and while most of us mortals strive to minimize the reliance on pain ( I know I have over the years)-- if pain does result, that doesn't make such an application of nikyo an inferior application. Perhaps less "interesting" to some but not inferior and perhaps just as effective depending like everything else on who is applying it and in what context.

Train Hard,
Jason
That's cutting hairs a little fine - if I hit you with a two-by-four is it "inferior" to performing XXX technique? Actually, the result might well be "superior", but I think that most folks in Aikido would characterize it as "inferior" to XXX technique.

My point was, the pain part is pretty easy, so why spend that much time on it? It's not about minimizing the pain - it's about which mechanisms you choose to explore.

I think that it's a mistake to say that because XXX teacher did it nobody else can. I think that everybody should hope and expect to do as well as their teachers. That may or may not actually happen, but why deliberately aim low?

Best,

Chris

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Old 02-12-2014, 11:50 AM   #179
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Re: does nikyo hurt?

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I agree with you but as I have said, I do try to minimize the amount needed to effectively gain control of Uke. Its all about connection, but pain will often be there to some degree if one ever has to leave the contrived and safe atmosphere of the dojo or the seminar. Plenty of Shihan seem to actively use at least some pain intentionally. I really don't think Shioda was lying in his own book. When I watch Seagal sensei apply nikkyo on video at least it looks like pain plays some role. Now not necessarily the primary means of gaining control but it appears to be there. I will say this, when I at least have experienced a high level Aikido instructor or Shihan apply nikyo to me, the unbalance me enough before they apply the technique and it goes on so fast and to such degree that you have No Time to counter it. And this is not even bringing utemi into the equation prior to applying nikyo which most of us do not want to rely on I understand.
I've been away several years, but if not wrong this is a subject already touched. Due to my little knowledge I asked my sensei, since according to me it has to hurt.
When I told him that some people here said it shouldn't hurt he agreed at a certain extent. According to him it's up to uke. Sure you can make nikkyo hurt, but if uke follows the technique there is no need for pain. So basically pain gets involved when uke does not follow nikkyo.

And at this point I must say that I can witness it. I am not that great at ukemi, but for nikkyo I just used to go down on my knee and tap. Painful as heck. Sensei taught me that it's because doing that way I, not intentionally, create a resistance, I stop the natural flow of nikkyo. I started going all the way down to nage's side and the pain almost disappeared, it's more a pressure on the whole arm. Sure he can still make it hurt, but as uke I have (or better I should have) the skill to minimize if not get rid of the pain.
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Old 02-12-2014, 01:19 PM   #180
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Re: does nikyo hurt?

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I've been away several years, but if not wrong this is a subject already touched. Due to my little knowledge I asked my sensei, since according to me it has to hurt.
When I told him that some people here said it shouldn't hurt he agreed at a certain extent. According to him it's up to uke. Sure you can make nikkyo hurt, but if uke follows the technique there is no need for pain. So basically pain gets involved when uke does not follow nikkyo.

And at this point I must say that I can witness it. I am not that great at ukemi, but for nikkyo I just used to go down on my knee and tap. Painful as heck. Sensei taught me that it's because doing that way I, not intentionally, create a resistance, I stop the natural flow of nikkyo. I started going all the way down to nage's side and the pain almost disappeared, it's more a pressure on the whole arm. Sure he can still make it hurt, but as uke I have (or better I should have) the skill to minimize if not get rid of the pain.
Yea, but isn't that really the same thing as pain compliance? Uke is "moving with the technique" to escape potential pain, not because his or her balance is broken.

Anyway, it seems to be me that if I am causing uke pain this means I am applying pressure on the joint - which we are taught never to do. When I am practicing nikyo I always ask my partner if they feel any pain, and if so that tells me I am pushing in on them, and I try to lighten up.

I guess rather than a joint lock, I see nikyo as an application of aikisage - sending their force underneath and then returning it above. If there is pain involved in doing that then I'm screwing up.
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Old 02-12-2014, 02:30 PM   #181
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Re: does nikyo hurt?

Unfortunately this is a question that only o'sensei can answer. Sure every shihan and sensei will teach their student the way they see it, but the way o'sensei thought about it, he only knows it. And chances are that it changed during his years of developing the art.
Nikkyo in itself as it was in daito ryuu and later on in aikijujitso was painful and it had to hurt.
Now, all I read about o'sensei, he never said he was against the pain, the idea was being able to control injuries to the opponent. I agree that in most cases the perfect blending and absence of pain makes your life easier. You create pain, you will have a reaction, no pain less fight. But nikkyo in itself does not create much fight if painful, because it tends to immobilized the opponent. I personally have received ikkyo, sankyo, kotegaeshi and more without feeling any pain, I just found myself on the floor. But for nikkyo the discomfort feeling close to pain was always there and it turned into pain of I did not full ukemi.
But I am curious to try your nikkyo to see how it feels with no pain.
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Old 02-12-2014, 03:23 PM   #182
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Wink Re: does nikyo hurt?

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That's cutting hairs a little fine - if I hit you with a two-by-four is it "inferior" to performing XXX technique? Actually, the result might well be "superior", but I think that most folks in Aikido would characterize it as "inferior" to XXX technique.

My point was, the pain part is pretty easy, so why spend that much time on it? It's not about minimizing the pain - it's about which mechanisms you choose to explore.

I think that it's a mistake to say that because XXX teacher did it nobody else can. I think that everybody should hope and expect to do as well as their teachers. That may or may not actually happen, but why deliberately aim low?

Best,

Chris
I certainly don't believe that one should spend a lot of time on the use of pain either however, it certainly seems to be a natural stage that most if not all go through when learning nikyo. However, when I said that I am working to minimize the use of pain that is because I am exploring the connection aspect of the technique but pain may creep back in. This is because one cannot always control all of the variables all of the time. Perhaps in the dojo with trained Ukes and at seminars but not always out in the real world.

So that begs the question of, if one can explore (and a worthy endeavor which I do as well) connection beyond pain in the dojo and seminars, to what extent does that translate to the real world? I see a lot of Kuzushi on contact talk on this blog which is one of the holy grails to be sure and worthy of transcending any factor of pain if one can get there. But just because one can be the master of the dojo and the captain of seminars doesn't mean it translates.

It could but, it is difficult to say. Like I said, once the flight or flight kicks in and you have a determined aggressive attacker pain may not be such a bad tool to at least have in the ol' belt or at least as a small byproduct. Kuzushi on contact is great in theory and worth of working towards but if you don't get in the real world, did you just trust your life to it in the parking garage or at the cash machine? That precise sensitivity like in the dojo may not be there. So if its academic study for academic sake that is worthy, but if it is to translate....I would love to see video of it. Besides, ill bet that many who speak of Kuzshi on contact and don't get it, what do think they will fall back on that is.......if they get the chance that is?

As for razing the bar we should be all doing that- we just have to try to identify what translates out of the dojo and seminar. Means of connection are something worthy of study (not necessarily the IS variety but I do) I'm just saying that for those of us which self-defense is an important element one needs to be careful so as to remain upright and breathing. Many of these Shihan like Osensei and others, this study is probably all they did. They did not have regular jobs, deep family commitments, etc so they could devote 80 hrs a week to get to a level where kuzushi on contact could be something they could trust their lives to.
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Old 02-12-2014, 04:29 PM   #183
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Re: does nikyo hurt?

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Jason Rudolph wrote: View Post
I certainly don't believe that one should spend a lot of time on the use of pain either ....
I think Aikido is the Way of Aiki and while I agree with what you people on here are trying to say, with what you are seeking to do, I think it is never too wise to stray from the martial path. With aiki you can develop the craft to apply nikyo (with or without pain). Without aiki, you can do neither - all you can do is crunch it, like they do in most Jujutsu or Hapkido dojos. Zero finesse, if you like. Aiki is the finesse we seek.

My nikyo has uke on the edge of pain from beginning to end. It is 'on'. When finished there is no lasting damage and in fact, it should feel to be rather a pleasant kind of pain, but it is pain nevertheless. If you are trying to do it without pain you are just barking up the wrong tree. It is not the aim to create pain, the aim is to control uke with minimal effort - if possible - using his energy. Uke's reaction will create the pain, unless he is a good uke that has learned to go with the flow to perfection to 'escape' the pain. Thus, it is not your skill but uke's that creates the painless nikyo.

A lot if the Aikido I see is just plain garbage. Even more of what I hear. I have done Judo, wrestling, Jujustsu - all sorts - and am becoming tired of aiki-fairy imaginations. If you are barking up the wrong tree and you don't know it - well - how bad can that be. I guess you will find out when someone attacks you.

The waza we have allow us to recognize and work on developing aiki. At one end we have kokyu-nage to isolate and develop movement. At the other we can throw people over our heads - the only reason we don't break our necks is because we are good at ukemi. Don't confuse uke's skill with your own. Even if you learn to control uke with good aiki, it will be just useless dance unless you can follow it up with powerful technique. And you can only learn powerful technique by practicing powerful technique.

Just my 2c.

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Old 02-12-2014, 04:42 PM   #184
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Re: does nikyo hurt?

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Rupert Atkinson wrote: View Post
I think Aikido is the Way of Aiki and while I agree with what you people on here are trying to say, with what you are seeking to do, I think it is never too wise to stray from the martial path. .
Where did anybody talk about not being martial? I've seen plenty of soft, non-painful Aiki that's more martial than just about anything you'll ever see in in conventional Aikido.

Best,

Chris

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Old 02-12-2014, 05:21 PM   #185
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Do symbol Re: does nikyo hurt?

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Rupert Atkinson wrote: View Post
I think Aikido is the Way of Aiki and while I agree with what you people on here are trying to say, with what you are seeking to do, I think it is never too wise to stray from the martial path. With aiki you can develop the craft to apply nikyo (with or without pain). Without aiki, you can do neither - all you can do is crunch it, like they do in most Jujutsu or Hapkido dojos. Zero finesse, if you like. Aiki is the finesse we seek.

My nikyo has uke on the edge of pain from beginning to end. It is 'on'. When finished there is no lasting damage and in fact, it should feel to be rather a pleasant kind of pain, but it is pain nevertheless. If you are trying to do it without pain you are just barking up the wrong tree. It is not the aim to create pain, the aim is to control uke with minimal effort - if possible - using his energy. Uke's reaction will create the pain, unless he is a good uke that has learned to go with the flow to perfection to 'escape' the pain. Thus, it is not your skill but uke's that creates the painless nikyo.

A lot if the Aikido I see is just plain garbage. Even more of what I hear. I have done Judo, wrestling, Jujustsu - all sorts - and am becoming tired of aiki-fairy imaginations. If you are barking up the wrong tree and you don't know it - well - how bad can that be. I guess you will find out when someone attacks you.

The waza we have allow us to recognize and work on developing aiki. At one end we have kokyu-nage to isolate and develop movement. At the other we can throw people over our heads - the only reason we don't break our necks is because we are good at ukemi. Don't confuse uke's skill with your own. Even if you learn to control uke with good aiki, it will be just useless dance unless you can follow it up with powerful technique. And you can only learn powerful technique by practicing powerful technique.

Just my 2c.
Rupert I agree with you! It's interesting, I was just speaking with a friend of mine who came up through the ranks with me and I was telling him that I like to keep Uke "on the edge" as well! haha! I strive to connect through the center and grab the whole person. Pain is usually lurking if not present. I have dealt with many individuals whom due to being on a substance don't react to pain so I am cautious and do not to rely on it. I guess it is there if I need it. The Uke is typically somewhat unbalanced prior to the nikyo even being applied. On the street a strike usually originating with my elbow would probably come into play as well. Love to attack the limbs ala Kali as well as it blends with Aikido techniqques but that is a different thread probably of the...... cross-training variety.

Train Hard,
Jason
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Old 02-12-2014, 11:14 PM   #186
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Re: does nikyo hurt?

It might be because I'm student of one of Saotome sensei's students, but I get repeated constantly how important is to remain martial, and that doesn't mean lose aikido.
I think this video of Saotome sensei underlines the concepts in full. He blends but he can hurt at the same time. As I said I don't remember o'sensei ever saying pain is not aikido.
Saotome Sensei 2003

Last edited by charyuop : 02-12-2014 at 11:17 PM.
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Old 02-13-2014, 12:51 AM   #187
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Re: does nikyo hurt?

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Gianluigi Pizzuto wrote: View Post
It might be because I'm student of one of Saotome sensei's students, but I get repeated constantly how important is to remain martial, and that doesn't mean lose aikido.
I think this video of Saotome sensei underlines the concepts in full. He blends but he can hurt at the same time. As I said I don't remember o'sensei ever saying pain is not aikido.
Saotome Sensei 2003
I'm fairly familiar with Saotome, he gave me my first couple of dan ranks - but except for a weekend when he passed through Japan ten years ago I haven't really had any contact with him since the last '80's.

In any case, I've certainly never said that pain is not Aikido. What I said is that the pain compliance part is:

a) Very easy.
b) Not very interesting, mainly because of (a).
c) Done by every store front martial arts kids class, which also contributes a bit to (b).

The non-painful variant that Shioda talks about is operating along some different lines, IMO. A number of people seem to think that this is a high level (maybe too high a level) thing - but that would just make it more interesting, to me.

I'm not particularly concerned about causing anybody pain, it just doesn't interest me much.

On a purely practical level, hit 'em with a two-by-four. It always works, is eminently practical, and can be done by just about anybody - which covers most of the arguments for focusing on the pain compliance aspects of nikyo.

FWIW...

Best,

Chris

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Old 02-13-2014, 03:55 AM   #188
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Re: does nikyo hurt?

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Christopher Li wrote: View Post
I'm fairly familiar with Saotome, he gave me my first couple of dan ranks - but except for a weekend when he passed through Japan ten years ago I haven't really had any contact with him since the last '80's.

In any case, I've certainly never said that pain is not Aikido. What I said is that the pain compliance part is:

a) Very easy.
b) Not very interesting, mainly because of (a).
c) Done by every store front martial arts kids class, which also contributes a bit to (b).

The non-painful variant that Shioda talks about is operating along some different lines, IMO. A number of people seem to think that this is a high level (maybe too high a level) thing - but that would just make it more interesting, to me.

I'm not particularly concerned about causing anybody pain, it just doesn't interest me much.

On a purely practical level, hit 'em with a two-by-four. It always works, is eminently practical, and can be done by just about anybody - which covers most of the arguments for focusing on the pain compliance aspects of nikyo.

FWIW...

Best,

Chris
Oh ok. You are looking for an alternate way to do nikkyo, it's ok. I assume at different levels, but we are all looking into improving our skills.
But I thought the OP question was more if a nikkyo has to hurt. I might have misunderstood the question.
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Old 02-13-2014, 02:35 PM   #189
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Re: does nikyo hurt?

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Jason Rudolph wrote: View Post
As for razing the bar
Intentional or best typo ever? Either way I love it.

For my two cents, the question of pain in nykyo or anything else is my stock answer "pain is a bonus not the objective, the objective is control". Other than a mechanism to induce uke to stiffen up and provide a better lever/connection, pain is the pretty red bow that completes our gift to uke.

In Our Dojo (TM ) we have dan level practitioners perform Ikyo , nikyo and sankyo off the forearm, without any wrist involvement as yet another variation of the arm arts. You lock the elbow, to control the shoulder to move the center, so in that sense I have a painless nikyo (I know that is not the version under discussion). What it does do is really help in identifying the mechanics/movements that lead to simultaneous lock and a steaming side of kazushi (also nice when your wrists have just had for the night).

Given that it is my understanding that nikyo is a family of wrist compression locks I find my curiosity piqued that some can do this without inducing pain.
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Old 02-13-2014, 02:53 PM   #190
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Re: does nikyo hurt?

And that just got me thinking about a recent seminar with Toby Threadgill where he would take a same side wrist grab, in motion, rotate about the point of contact, wrap his hand around uke’s forearm and throw uke out uke’s back quarter. It was kazushi on contact, the momentary lock was essentially a vertical nikyo or nikyo/sankyo hybrid, and it did not hurt one iota. The arm was instantaneously locked, and the kazshi was so sudden and overwhelming the there was never really time for the lock to wrap to any painful stage, also the wrist was mostly bypassed after the initial contact. This ring a bell for anyone?
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Old 02-13-2014, 05:12 PM   #191
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Re: does nikyo hurt?

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Hilary Heinmets wrote: View Post
And that just got me thinking about a recent seminar with Toby Threadgill where he would take a same side wrist grab, in motion, rotate about the point of contact, wrap his hand around uke”Ēs forearm and throw uke out uke”Ēs back quarter. It was kazushi on contact, the momentary lock was essentially a vertical nikyo or nikyo/sankyo hybrid, and it did not hurt one iota. The arm was instantaneously locked, and the kazshi was so sudden and overwhelming the there was never really time for the lock to wrap to any painful stage, also the wrist was mostly bypassed after the initial contact. This ring a bell for anyone?
Does it look something like this?



In Hakkoryu, this can be done katate or ryote, standing or seated -- with uke being drawn into a back fall, front drop or forward breakfall via the lock.

Mert
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Old 02-14-2014, 12:31 PM   #192
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Re: does nikyo hurt?

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Christopher Li wrote: View Post
I'm fairly familiar with Saotome, he gave me my first couple of dan ranks - but except for a weekend when he passed through Japan ten years ago I haven't really had any contact with him since the last '80's.

In any case, I've certainly never said that pain is not Aikido. What I said is that the pain compliance part is:

a) Very easy.
b) Not very interesting, mainly because of (a).
c) Done by every store front martial arts kids class, which also contributes a bit to (b).

The non-painful variant that Shioda talks about is operating along some different lines, IMO. A number of people seem to think that this is a high level (maybe too high a level) thing - but that would just make it more interesting, to me.

I'm not particularly concerned about causing anybody pain, it just doesn't interest me much.

On a purely practical level, hit 'em with a two-by-four. It always works, is eminently practical, and can be done by just about anybody - which covers most of the arguments for focusing on the pain compliance aspects of nikyo.

FWIW...

Best,

Chris
Hit them with a two-by-four? Really? That is just plain silly Chris. I would tend to think that is going to result in a much more protracted entanglement with law enforcement and the court system than an uninteresting painful nikyo. I, like may others, strive to not rely on pain but connection (maybe not the IS type) however I do have pain copious amounts in reserve should it be needed. Also,

Inside the dojo and at the seminar where so many variables are absent or controlled one can eventually probably have a high degree of success applying painless techniques and there is certainly knowledge to be gleaned and appreciated from that. I'm not say that it is not worth studying or incorporating to some degree.

However, how well that fully translates to spontaneous in your face confrontations I'm not so sure. Shioda said what he said in his own book and pain seems to be ok with him, his description of Osensei not withstanding. Further, there many Shihan of "Modern" Aikido that seem to use at least some pain and yet also have real connection. Saotome, Seagal, Isoyama, Doran come to mind. Even though there are those out there (some whom might even be in some of these Shihan's organizations) that say "Modern Aikido lacks "true Aiki". Well, they seem to be doing really good Aikido by us novice types and their Aikido might even said to be interesting to boot.

Also, I don't see video where the person (or multiple attackers even better) just crumble on contact at full speed. Maybe its out there but I have not seen it and if it is, is it being done by someone under the age of 80? I mean if one can get there shouldn't one have a fallback in the interim so that one is attacked they can remain upright and breathing so to be able to continue to study the mystifying and interesting?

Train Hard,
Jason
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Old 02-14-2014, 12:51 PM   #193
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Re: does nikyo hurt?

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Jason Rudolph wrote: View Post
Hit them with a two-by-four? Really? That is just plain silly Chris. I would tend to think that is going to result in a much more protracted entanglement with law enforcement and the court system than an uninteresting painful nikyo. I, like may others, strive to not rely on pain but connection (maybe not the IS type) however I do have pain copious amounts in reserve should it be needed.
The nikyo is just as likely (perhaps more) to cause lasting damage as the two-by-four, IMO, I doubt it will save you in the courts.

Anyway, and I don't know how many times I've said this already, there's nothing wrong with causing pain. I have no problem with it, just as I would have no problem whacking an attacker with a two-by-four. But the pain compliance version doesn't strike me as something that's worth spending a lot of time on - just as you wouldn't spend twenty years pondering on how best to whack a guy with a two-by-four.

I think that's the last time that I'll repeat that....

Best,

Chris

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Old 02-14-2014, 08:01 PM   #194
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Re: does nikyo hurt?

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Christopher Li wrote: View Post
I have no problem with it, just as I would have no problem whacking an attacker with a two-by-four. But the pain compliance version doesn't strike me as something that's worth spending a lot of time on - just as you wouldn't spend twenty years pondering on how best to whack a guy with a two-by-four.
Chris
Chris, hitting folks with 2x4 is alot harder than it looked. one could spent years on perfecting the art. you got to choose the right 2x4. the ones that came from young timber tend to warp and that messes up the swing as well as the strike zone. the old timbers tend to be gnarly with uneven weight distribution which would mess with the moment arm and strike vectors. then you need to figure in whether you use treated or untreated lumber. treated lumber tends to be better because it's smoother and the blood won't stick to it as much. Then you need to figure out what is the right length. too short it won't be affective. too long then you can't hide it in your coats. then whether you want a nail in it or not. and would it be rusty nail or regular nail or galvanized nail along with the right side and length. then you need to figure if you wear gloves or not while handling the 2x4. what kind of gloves? does skin, sheep skin, cow hide, deer skin, people skin, with or without liner, with or without thermal shieldding if you operate in the middle of cold winter of Chicago or New York or some place with lots of snow and ice. That were just materials consideration.

now you need to consider techniques to go with 2x4. do you swing it yokoment or shomen? do you tsuki first then either yoko or sho? do you go for the knee caps first so they can't run away which allow you to whack them in the head? do you hit from behind or front or sides or from below? do you kiai first, like "hey you!", then swing or swing first then say something after? do you deal with one or multiple buggers? do you go through their pockets afterward or get out of there as quickly as you can? do you yell "help" "help" while whacking the bugger or just be tall, dark and handsome about it? what sort of solo exercises you do with 2x4? do you sleep with your 2x4 to get a better feel for it? do you name your 2x4, like Betsy or Billy or god forbid Heather? do you take your 2x4 for a nightly walk?

as you can see, there are alot to consider about swinging 2x4. it takes years to master such art. lucky for you, i have extensive experience in this area. i am willing to do seminar at your place and expenses to show you the aiki2x4do.

"budo is putting on cold, wet, sweat stained gi with a smile and a snarl" - your truly
http://charlotteaikikai.org
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Old 02-15-2014, 08:49 AM   #195
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Re: does nikyo hurt?

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Christopher Li wrote: View Post
What I said is that the pain compliance part is:

a) Very easy.
b) Not very interesting, mainly because of (a).
c) Done by every store front martial arts kids class, which also contributes a bit to (b).

The non-painful variant that Shioda talks about is operating along some different lines, IMO. A number of people seem to think that this is a high level (maybe too high a level) thing - but that would just make it more interesting, to me.

I'm not particularly concerned about causing anybody pain, it just doesn't interest me much.
I agree completely that the painful variant is not very interesting. In the Kenshusei Course at Mugenjuku Dojo, we practice only to achieve the non-painful variant.

After about 10 months of Kenshusei, I can perform the non-painful variant fairly consistently on the other course participants. Recently, we started attending ippan classes, and I seem to be able to perform it there, too, sometimes.

I am not ready to say I understand it even 80%, but I think I understand it enough to teach it to other people given certain commonalities in training. It doesn't seem like a particularly high level technique to me, but it is one that--as far as I can tell--requires Yoshinkan posture and body mechanics.

One problem with people's understanding of the non-painful variant seems to me to be that the most basic nikyo/nikajo technique taught is tachi-waza-katate-mochi, whereas the technique is much easier to understand from tachi-waza-kata-mochi and from suwari-waza-katate-mochi.

The keys to doing the tachi-waza-katate-mochi variant are correct maai and not using the arms/hands at all once you have grasped uke's hand/forearm. If you can keep these two elements and make a small shuffle with correct posture, the technique seems to work like magic.

I think correct maai is the real key, and this would explain why the technique is so hard for many people yet I can do it on my fellow students consistently. To achieve correct maai, you need to be able to intuit it in the instant you move the hands into position. This requires sensing uke in a way that most people can't do. Yet in the course, I can compensate for lack of intuition by learning the correct maai for my fellow students.

I would suggest to people trying to learn this technique from kata-mochi. If you get the point of having one hand on the wrist and the other near the elbow, you should be able to perform nikyo/nikajo by simply extending your spine without doing anything else. This isn't powerful enough to take someone to the ground, but it can be powerful enough to break their balance, which really is the technique, anyhow.

As for trying to define what nikyo/nikajo is, I have given up. Of course, I am still a beginner, but after practicing all the kihon variants, I have come to the tentative conclusion that nikajo is actually a name for a collection of techniques that don't all work in the same way, at least from a low level perspective. For example, karate-mochi requires that the arms move little or not at all, whereas in aya-mochi, the arm must cut. And hiji-mochi is a whole other beast that is basically just jujutsu. Or at least, I haven't been able to figure out where the aikido comes in. Further, there are non-kihon techniques that are just pain compliance, which is a fundamentally different mechanism from balance-taking.

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Old 02-15-2014, 09:11 AM   #196
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Re: does nikyo hurt?

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Christopher Li wrote: View Post
The nikyo is just as likely (perhaps more) to cause lasting damage as the two-by-four, IMO, I doubt it will save you in the courts.

Anyway, and I don't know how many times I've said this already, there's nothing wrong with causing pain. I have no problem with it, just as I would have no problem whacking an attacker with a two-by-four. But the pain compliance version doesn't strike me as something that's worth spending a lot of time on - just as you wouldn't spend twenty years pondering on how best to whack a guy with a two-by-four.

I think that's the last time that I'll repeat that....

Best,

Chris
More legal trouble from applying nikyo than striking someone with a two-by-four?? Maybe in Hawaii but I can't see it anywhere else in the states.

I am certainly not suggesting that one spend a lot of time of the use of pain in any technique. Nowhere did I ever say that. However, using it in a real situation without some pain may not be that easy and the depth of the use of pain may be a little deeper than you are giving credit. That said, the original question was should Nikyo hurt? I have agreed that one cannot rely on pain, that it is sound to explore real connection ( I do with my sensei), but that pain in a real situation will probably show up to some degree. Further, given that most individuals don't walk around with a two-by-four nor usually have one easily within reach using pain seems to be the way most will go until the pain free version (outside the dojo that is at real speed against a committed attacker) is demonstrated. Hey if you (IS) folks want to put a version on video that one can do before 45 years of study in the conditions cited above I'm sure many would like to see it. If the painless version is useful primarily only in the dojo and seminar settings it certainly has value, but to many will be academic. Like you said raising the bar and who doesn't fully support that!

Train Hard,
Jason
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Old 02-15-2014, 09:19 AM   #197
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Re: does nikyo hurt?

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Jason Rudolph wrote: View Post
More legal trouble from applying nikyo than striking someone with a two-by-four?? Maybe in Hawaii but I can't see it anywhere else in the states.

I am certainly not suggesting that one spend a lot of time of the use of pain in any technique. Nowhere did I ever say that. However, using it in a real situation without some pain may not be that easy and the depth of the use of pain may be a little deeper than you are giving credit. That said, the original question was should Nikyo hurt? I have agreed that one cannot rely on pain, that it is sound to explore real connection ( I do with my sensei), but that pain in a real situation will probably show up to some degree. Further, given that most individuals don't walk around with a two-by-four nor usually have one easily within reach using pain seems to be the way most will go until the pain free version (outside the dojo that is at real speed against a committed attacker) is demonstrated. Hey if you (IS) folks want to put a version on video that one can do before 45 years of study in the conditions cited above I'm sure many would like to see it. If the painless version is useful primarily only in the dojo and seminar settings it certainly has value, but to many will be academic. Like you said raising the bar and who doesn't fully support that!

Train Hard,
Jason
The guy in the post above yours can do it after ten months, not 45 years, and he's not an IS guy. It was never about pain, it was never about IS, and it certainly wasn't about legal standards. You're arguing about a lot of things that I've never argued about.

With that - I'm really out of this conversation.

Best,

Chris

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Old 02-15-2014, 09:42 AM   #198
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Re: does nikyo hurt?

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Rupert Atkinson wrote: View Post
With aiki you can develop the craft to apply nikyo (with or without pain). Without aiki, you can do neither - all you can do is crunch it, like they do in most Jujutsu or Hapkido dojos. Zero finesse, if you like. Aiki is the finesse we seek.

My nikyo has uke on the edge of pain from beginning to end. It is 'on'. When finished there is no lasting damage and in fact, it should feel to be rather a pleasant kind of pain, but it is pain nevertheless. If you are trying to do it without pain you are just barking up the wrong tree.

A lot if the Aikido I see is just plain garbage. Even more of what I hear. I have done Judo, wrestling, Jujustsu - all sorts - and am becoming tired of aiki-fairy imaginations. If you are barking up the wrong tree and you don't know it - well - how bad can that be. I guess you will find out when someone attacks you.
I agree with some of what you say. The painless nikyo/nikajo variant is a training tool that results from shite and uke performing their roles well together. I couldn't use the painless variant as a self-defence tool, although I can imagine that someone with much more training could.

However, I think you should look at the source of the pain. The pain comes from the wrist joint getting cranked. If you are doing an "on" technique just on the verge of pain (which I have also felt), it is coming from controlling the wrist joint without too much crank. So, as you say, finesse. This means people who are doing the technique without pain are not controlling the wrist, they controlling something else (hint: not ki). I.e., it is a fundamentally different technique. So you are arguing apples against oranges here, I think. The truth of this can be seen by comparing uke's reactions to the two techniques. A "good" uke responding to a good wrist crank nikyo will, from what I've seen, drop pretty much straight down by falling onto one knee. A good uke responding to a non-pain variant nikajo buckles at the knees first and starts to fall backwards before going down onto the knees.

I think you should also consider the history of aikido. As I understand it, aikido didn't develop from jujutsu per se but from a specific subset of jujutsu techniques that were designed to study aiki as an application. Ueshiba sort of isolated this direction of study and said, "hey, let's do this exclusively for a purpose other than mastering jujutsu." You are arguing for a return to the pre-aikido roots of aiki study, it seems to me. That's fine, but it doesn't make sense to study aikido, then, rather than a jujutsu.

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Old 02-15-2014, 10:16 AM   #199
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Re: does nikyo hurt?

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Rupert Atkinson wrote: View Post
Shioda's nikyo hurt like hell. And he used to stand there laughing while his students writhed in agony at his feet. Something tells me, his students know how nikyo works.
I have felt both painful and non-painful nikajo from Payet-sensei. As I stated before, I think these are almost different techniques.

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Old 02-15-2014, 10:28 AM   #200
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Re: does nikyo hurt?

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Mert Gambito wrote: View Post
In the OP video, the shite's hands are close together relative to most versions of this type of wrist lock, and can readily work together in a manner that allows the degree of pain from the lock to be varied (i.e. the hand not applying the lock can manipulate the uke's wrist and forearm like the tsuka of a sword, supported by vs. supporting the hand applying the lock, if the shite so chooses). Here's the close-up shown in the video: http://youtu.be/QchlmrPnidA?t=1m30s.

The shite also induces kuzushi by stepping forward to drive the forearm forward and down toward the uke's center as the lock's applied (again, the force can be transferred to the uke's arm primarily via the hand grabbing the wrist moreso than the hand applying the lock, if so desired).

These factors should allow the shite to execute the technique with little or no pain, if so desired, for demonstration purposes. And, based on my experiences taking ukemi for Yoshinkan practitioners, that is the case.
At one point this year, I also thought the key was to control uke with the hand that is on the forearm. However, this can result in simply using your arm strength to push uke to the ground (which is not aikido) or in collapsing the arm rather than locking it. The key is to (1) get correct maai with the hands in the correct position (2) step in without using the hands to manipulate anything and (3) stepping along the correct centre line. It doesn't work for me 100% of the time, either.

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