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Old 02-03-2014, 03:10 PM   #151
Janet Rosen
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Re: does nikyo hurt?

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Rupert Atkinson wrote: View Post
It is not until you relax into and learn to follow the pain that you can find a way out of it. Ditto other waza.
Agreed.

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Old 02-03-2014, 06:19 PM   #152
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Re: does nikyo hurt?

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Christopher Li wrote: View Post
The Italians seem to think differently...

(I'm still not sure what we're talking about)

Best,

Chris
My first response, given a perfusion of Milanos on one side of the family, is "they think differently about most everything". They also have radial pizzas, something different on every slice including a sunny side up egg. So while I really do like most of the pizza I get over there, some of it is a tad odd. And don't get me started about what you can eat at what time of day; an interesting combination of cultural anarchy and OCD.

Edit: and thought they would never be caught dead admitting that these are pizza's, you have not lived until you have had a Barbarian from Conan's deep dish in Austin TX (if they still exist).

Last edited by Hilary : 02-03-2014 at 06:24 PM. Reason: Memories all aglow in the moon light
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Old 02-04-2014, 06:32 AM   #153
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Re: does nikyo hurt?

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Tarik Ghbeish wrote: View Post
It should be <ahem> painfully obvious what Mary is talking about.

(please pass the popcorn)
Thank you, Tarik
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Old 02-04-2014, 06:59 AM   #154
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Re: does nikyo hurt?

would you people stop with the pizza already! it's just flatten dough and stuffs on it and wood fired oven. i still dream about the chicago pizza i had years ago. they don't make pizza like that in the south.

as far as nikyo goes, i just push my other hand near the wrist of being nikyo upon. methink, in taichi, the move called embrace tiger, pushing mountain or carry pizza, pushing beer. good luck trying to do nikyo on me after that.

"budo is putting on cold, wet, sweat stained gi with a smile and a snarl" - your truly
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Old 02-04-2014, 12:18 PM   #155
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Re: does nikyo hurt?

I shall try "carry pizza" next time there's a Nikyo on me, thanks Phi.
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Old 02-04-2014, 03:00 PM   #156
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Re: does nikyo hurt?

Phi, you have your priorities messed up. You don't push beer, you pull beer, so as to have it nearer to you! Likewise pizza. Pull pizza and beer. And the pizza must have tomato sauce or it isn't pizza. The beer is tomato-optional.
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Old 02-04-2014, 03:04 PM   #157
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Re: does nikyo hurt?

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Mary Malmros wrote: View Post
Phi, you have your priorities messed up. You don't push beer, you pull beer, so as to have it nearer to you! Likewise pizza. Pull pizza and beer. And the pizza must have tomato sauce or it isn't pizza. The beer is tomato-optional.
I am sorry to disagree with you on this one Mary. Prior to my wedding I spent countless hours utilizing beer in an extreme effort to find just the right tomato.
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Old 02-04-2014, 07:53 PM   #158
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Re: does nikyo hurt?

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Hilary Heinmets wrote: View Post
I am sorry to disagree with you on this one Mary. Prior to my wedding I spent countless hours utilizing beer in an extreme effort to find just the right tomato.
...giving an entirely new meaning to "tomato sauce".
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Old 02-10-2014, 09:11 AM   #159
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Smile Re: does nikyo hurt?

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Christopher Li wrote: View Post
Personally, I felt that Shioda's comment that Ueshiba's nikyo...didn't hurt (I mentioned this further up the thread) is much more interesting than the pain stuff - which you can get at your local strip mall Tae Kwon Do place.

Best,

Chris
Still, it is interesting to note that Mori Shihan who was-according to his webpage-the last Ushi-deshi for Shioda sensei and the fastest to 7th Dan in Yoshinkan seems to be applying Nikyo is a way that is utilizing at least some pain if the Uke's face and body language are any indicator. I don't know if I would say that he is utilizing the lowest form of martial technique and I can't speak to any involvement he may have had with Tae Kwon Do .However, he just seems to me to be really good. Perhaps, O-sensei was well.......O-sensei and not doing exactly what O-sensei did can still be really really good too.....................even nikyo..

http://youtu.be/ugsS2_Z0wpA

Train Hard,
Jason

Last edited by akiy : 02-10-2014 at 10:59 AM. Reason: Fixed quote tag
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Old 02-10-2014, 09:15 AM   #160
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Re: does nikyo hurt?

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Jason Rudolph wrote: View Post
Still, it is interesting to note that Mori Shihan who was-according to his webpage-the last Ushi-deshi for Shioda sensei and the fastest to 7th Dan in Yoshinkan seems to be applying Nikyo is a way that is utilizing at least some pain if the Uke's face and body language are any indicator. I don't know if I would say that he is utilizing the lowest form of martial technique and I can't speak to any involvement he may have had with Tae Kwon Do .However, he just seems to me to be really good. Perhaps, O-sensei was well.......O-sensei and not doing exactly what O-sensei did can still be really really good too.....................even nikyo..

http://youtu.be/ugsS2_Z0wpA

Train Hard,
Jason
And yet you have to note the OP (which isn't from a video analysis):

Quote:
I am studying Yoshinkan. We are learning nikajo like this:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QchlmrPnidA
We are told that nikajo should not be painful in the wrist. This is a difficult effect to produce, but as uke, I have felt times when the only thing I noticed was my hip and knee collapsing--no pain response.
Which matches with Shioda's testimony.

Best,

Chris

Last edited by akiy : 02-10-2014 at 10:59 AM. Reason: Fixed quote tag

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Old 02-10-2014, 04:05 PM   #161
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Ai symbol Re: does nikyo hurt?

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Christopher Li wrote: View Post
And yet you have to note the OP (which isn't from a video analysis):

Which matches with Shioda's testimony.

Best,

Chris
However, there is this too from Shioda sensei's Dynamic Aikido:

"Nikajo is a technique directed at the elbow and the wrist and can be used to inflict much pain if applied skillfully' p.74

Train Hard,
Jason
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Old 02-10-2014, 07:02 PM   #162
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Re: does nikyo hurt?

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Jason Rudolph wrote: View Post
However, there is this too from Shioda sensei's Dynamic Aikido:

"Nikajo is a technique directed at the elbow and the wrist and can be used to inflict much pain if applied skillfully' p.74

Train Hard,
Jason
Quote:
and can be used to inflict much pain
Certainly doesn't say always. Sure, you can inflict pain - but that's not very interesting to me technically. Any store front Tae Kwon Do school can do the same.

Anyway, my experience with the Yoshinkan in Japan (which also isn't from a video or a book) matches the OP's in that respect.

Best,

Chris

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Old 02-10-2014, 09:39 PM   #163
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Re: does nikyo hurt?

Didn't watch all of the the Mori video, but the Nikkajo he demonstrates within the first 3 minutes of that video is different than the one in the video used as reference in the OP. In the OP video, the shite's hands are close together relative to most versions of this type of wrist lock, and can readily work together in a manner that allows the degree of pain from the lock to be varied (i.e. the hand not applying the lock can manipulate the uke's wrist and forearm like the tsuka of a sword, supported by vs. supporting the hand applying the lock, if the shite so chooses). Here's the close-up shown in the video: http://youtu.be/QchlmrPnidA?t=1m30s.

The shite also induces kuzushi by stepping forward to drive the forearm forward and down toward the uke's center as the lock's applied (again, the force can be transferred to the uke's arm primarily via the hand grabbing the wrist moreso than the hand applying the lock, if so desired).

These factors should allow the shite to execute the technique with little or no pain, if so desired, for demonstration purposes. And, based on my experiences taking ukemi for Yoshinkan practitioners, that is the case.

Last edited by Mert Gambito : 02-10-2014 at 09:42 PM.

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Old 02-11-2014, 05:30 AM   #164
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Re: does nikyo hurt?

Quote:
Mert Gambito wrote: View Post
These factors should allow the shite to execute the technique with little or no pain, if so desired, for demonstration purposes. And, based on my experiences taking ukemi for Yoshinkan practitioners, that is the case.
That is exactly the way Kanetsuka Sensei does nikyo ura - not surprising, given who his first teacher was…

All the Aikikai Hombu shihan I have come across, as well as Saito Sensei, tend to bring the hand into the shoulder to deliver the pin, even from shomenuchi and yokomenuchi. Kanetsuka Sensei's argument for not doing this (except where the attack is a shoulder grab in the first place) is that when the attacker has a weapon it is quite dangerous to bring that hand straight into the body.

Oh, and his nikyo is extremely effective, without inflicting much pain at all. The sensation is more of being knocked to the ground by a blow to the whole body simultaneously.

Alex
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Old 02-11-2014, 12:02 PM   #165
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Re: does nikyo hurt?

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Alex Megann wrote: View Post
That is exactly the way Kanetsuka Sensei does nikyo ura - not surprising, given who his first teacher was…

All the Aikikai Hombu shihan I have come across, as well as Saito Sensei, tend to bring the hand into the shoulder to deliver the pin, even from shomenuchi and yokomenuchi. Kanetsuka Sensei's argument for not doing this (except where the attack is a shoulder grab in the first place) is that when the attacker has a weapon it is quite dangerous to bring that hand straight into the body.

Oh, and his nikyo is extremely effective, without inflicting much pain at all. The sensation is more of being knocked to the ground by a blow to the whole body simultaneously.

Alex
Just to disagree - If there were no pain, uke would not move, except to stop his wrist breaking. I think we get used to the pain and so think there is none. The danger is to kid yourself as to the reality. Sometimes, when I 'hear' or 'see' people teaching stuff, I just want to get up and ... eer ...show them how wrong they are. But alas, I am too polite.

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Old 02-11-2014, 12:05 PM   #166
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Re: does nikyo hurt?

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Rupert Atkinson wrote: View Post
Just to disagree - If there were no pain, uke would not move, except to stop his wrist breaking. I think we get used to the pain and so think there is none. The danger is to kid yourself as to the reality. Sometimes, when I 'hear' or 'see' people teaching stuff, I just want to get up and ... eer ...show them how wrong they are. But alas, I am too polite.
So...you never move unless there's pain? Even in Judo that's not the case, IMO.

Best,

Chris

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Old 02-11-2014, 12:16 PM   #167
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Ki Symbol Re: does nikyo hurt?

Quote:
Mert Gambito wrote: View Post
Didn't watch all of the the Mori video, but the Nikkajo he demonstrates within the first 3 minutes of that video is different than the one in the video used as reference in the OP. In the OP video, the shite's hands are close together relative to most versions of this type of wrist lock, and can readily work together in a manner that allows the degree of pain from the lock to be varied (i.e. the hand not applying the lock can manipulate the uke's wrist and forearm like the tsuka of a sword, supported by vs. supporting the hand applying the lock, if the shite so chooses). Here's the close-up shown in the video: http://youtu.be/QchlmrPnidA?t=1m30s.

The shite also induces kuzushi by stepping forward to drive the forearm forward and down toward the uke's center as the lock's applied (again, the force can be transferred to the uke's arm primarily via the hand grabbing the wrist moreso than the hand applying the lock, if so desired).

These factors should allow the shite to execute the technique with little or no pain, if so desired, for demonstration purposes. And, based on my experiences taking ukemi for Yoshinkan practitioners, that is the case.
Nikyo whether applied by holding the wrist out in front of yourself or bringing it up to your shoulder is the same technique. What I am saying at least is that pain is Not the Primary means of control with this techniques, BUT it is a likely to be at least an outcome to some degree at some level, especially when done at speed, you know, real life, not the way demonstrated in that OP video or the other for that matter. Although the application by Mori sensei seems at least plausible. Outside of a demonstration or the friendly confines of a dojo nikyo will probably be put "on" at speed, because someone say will really want knock your teeth out and its not an academic exercise for them. They just want to hurt you so if they grab you anywhere, most likely their other hand is already on its way to your face. Connection with Uke's center, (yes) is the main mechanism for taking their balance and the same with Sankyo. However, while one could theoretically do it without any pain at a slow and controlled pace as in the OP video, its highly unlikely 8 out of 10 attempts in a real life situation.

Also, one must add in the flight or flight response that Nage in real life situation would most likely experience when applying nikyo in real life where your adrenaline in pumping through your veins and the precise sensitivity you experience in the dojo a slow speeds or static will be elusive at best unless of course such confrontations are common for you. I am sure that many individuals on this message board can site examples of how anecdotal evidence in their lives differs from what many practitioners and Shihan such as Shioda have said directly in their own words. Indeed, we are talking about an art not chemistry so one can Always go to that card, because at the end of the day there are no absolutes in the martial arts.

Train Hard,
Jason
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Old 02-11-2014, 12:24 PM   #168
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Re: does nikyo hurt?

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Jason Rudolph wrote: View Post
What I am saying at least is that pain is Not the Primary means of control with this techniques, BUT it is a likely to be at least an outcome to some degree at some level, especially when done at speed, you know, real life, not the way demonstrated in that OP video or the other for that matter.
Frankly, I think that pain is likely in the case of just about any application in a "real life" situation - but that's not all that relevant to a discussion of technical methods, IMO.

Best,

Chris

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Old 02-11-2014, 02:54 PM   #169
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Re: does nikyo hurt?

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So...you never move unless there's pain? Even in Judo that's not the case, IMO.

Best,

Chris
We're talking nikyo, right. Only the most painful lock on the planet ...

If you can control them with a nikyo shape without pain, all well and good, but why even bother with nikyo shape then ... just push them over using your off-balancing skill.

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Old 02-11-2014, 03:02 PM   #170
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Re: does nikyo hurt?

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Rupert Atkinson wrote: View Post
We're talking nikyo, right. Only the most painful lock on the planet ...

If you can control them with a nikyo shape without pain, all well and good, but why even bother with nikyo shape then ... just push them over using your off-balancing skill.
Well, that's the discussion, isn't it? If, as Gozo Shioda said and taught, Morihei Ueshiba's nikyo didn't hurt, then how would that happen and why would that be useful? Those are interesting questions for me.

I mean, why bother with any of this stuff if you're not interested in the details of how things work? Better to hit them with a two-by-four.

Best,

Chris

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Old 02-11-2014, 04:09 PM   #171
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Re: does nikyo hurt?

Shioda's nikyo hurt like hell. And he used to stand there laughing while his students writhed in agony at his feet. Something tells me, his students know how nikyo works.

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Old 02-11-2014, 04:27 PM   #172
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Re: does nikyo hurt?

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Rupert Atkinson wrote: View Post
Shioda's nikyo hurt like hell. And he used to stand there laughing while his students writhed in agony at his feet.
He certainly may have enjoyed doing it like that (he was something of a showman the times that I saw him in Tokyo) - but that doesn't mean that was the only way he ever did it, or that his statement about Morihei Ueshiba is any less interesting.

Best,

Chris

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Old 02-12-2014, 02:17 AM   #173
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Re: does nikyo hurt?

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Rupert Atkinson wrote: View Post
Just to disagree - If there were no pain, uke would not move, except to stop his wrist breaking. I think we get used to the pain and so think there is none. The danger is to kid yourself as to the reality. Sometimes, when I 'hear' or 'see' people teaching stuff, I just want to get up and ... eer ...show them how wrong they are. But alas, I am too polite.
I understand what you're saying, Rupert, and maybe a little of that is happening too.

All the same, I know what I feel, and nikyo delivered by someone who does it the way we are talking about does feel very different from nikyo done by someone who is not controlling uke's body structure.

We were practising this very technique yesterday evening (funnily enough), and I was experimenting with which part of use's body I was controlling through the wrist. If you aim your technique at the wrist, or try to control the front shoulder, this relies on uke feeling pain in their wrist for effect, and you have little control on their body apart from this (especially if they have insensitive wrists). On the other hand, if I try to link the wrist pin with uke's rear shoulder, they go down with much less effort on my part, and they tell me they feel much less pain in their wrist.

Alex
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Old 02-12-2014, 04:28 AM   #174
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Re: does nikyo hurt?

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I understand what you're saying, Rupert, and maybe a little of that is happening too.

All the same, I know what I feel, and nikyo delivered by someone who does it the way we are talking about does feel very different from nikyo done by someone who is not controlling uke's body structure.

We were practising this very technique yesterday evening (funnily enough), and I was experimenting with which part of use's body I was controlling through the wrist. If you aim your technique at the wrist, or try to control the front shoulder, this relies on uke feeling pain in their wrist for effect, and you have little control on their body apart from this (especially if they have insensitive wrists). On the other hand, if I try to link the wrist pin with uke's rear shoulder, they go down with much less effort on my part, and they tell me they feel much less pain in their wrist.

Alex
I know what you're saying too, and it makes for good technique. But I remain a realist and for me, that good technique offers a faster route to pain, should you chose to take it. The more choices you have the better.

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Old 02-12-2014, 06:45 AM   #175
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Re: does nikyo hurt?

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I know what you're saying too, and it makes for good technique. But I remain a realist and for me, that good technique offers a faster route to pain, should you chose to take it. The more choices you have the better.
folks have different ideas on what is good techniques. you have

good = lots of pain on uke but might or might not affect uke's structure/center/ability to counter

good = little to no pain on uke but affected uke's structure/center/ability to counter

lots of space in between. personally, i work toward the little to no pain approach. doesn't mean that i cannot cause pain; however, the pain that i can cause won't be localized to the wrist. it will be multiple places on uke body at the same time. sort of pain on sale, buy one gets two or three for free.

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