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Old 11-25-2013, 01:20 PM   #401
Kevin Leavitt
 
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Re: What technique would you apply to neutralize Brazilian Jujitsu attacker

Hey Donald, not sure I may get this right, but I'll comment...

There may be 10,000 variables, but for the most part, there are some pretty predictable things about the dynamics of fights. There are only so many positions and things that people can do and I think we can keep these dynamics at a manageable level.

The catch is that predictable fight dynamic takes place within a decision cycle that we need to consider. Where we are in that process matters much more than it is given credit for.

This is what is disturbing to many about that Knock Out Game. The victim never fully appreciates the decision cycle or participates in it to any degree that provides him feedback until it is too late.

The knock out game is on the extreme end of the decision cycle...we hope that we can have more information or knowledge than that in an encounter and we can begin to respond appropriately.

As we move closer to MORE or FULL knowledge...we can make more informed choices and actions. At that point, we don't need to account for 10,000 variables, only a small few that we have learned/conditioned ourselves to respond to. Hopefully in a more subconscious way if we have formed good instincts and habits from our training.

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Old 01-05-2014, 07:01 PM   #402
camt
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Re: What technique would you apply to neutralize Brazilian Jujitsu attacker

Quote:
Karl Arant wrote: View Post
How bad do you want to win? If all you want is martial efficacy that's super easy:

Always box a wrestler and always wrestle a boxer. In other words don't play their game. If you try to out grapple a grappler, without being one yourself, you're probably going to loose. As previously stated, most BJJ guys are generally not the greatest strikers, so having a good 1-2 cross and left hook in your tool box can be a life saver. Don't believe me? Try and hold you own with a decent amateur boxer. He/She will hold you at bay all day and work you over at will with nothing but a straight jab and good foot work. Bruce Lee emphasized this idea with the power lead.
Also, NEVER go to the ground with any one. BJJ practitioner, or not, the ground is a bad place to be, especially when he pulls that knife out of his pocket you didn't see, or his friends come out of hiding and start kicking out in the head while he holds you down. So don't even train for it, or you will do it in real life and it will backfire. As in nearly all tactical situations, the high ground (e.g. standing versus grappling) is best. For further proof consult the Isreali Self Defense and US military tactics, which strongly discourage going to ground at all costs.
As far as stymieing a BJJ practitioner in particular, you'd be amazed at how well simple tenkan motions and good ol' nikkyo can be. Try applying nikkyo the next time a BJJ grabs your lapel, then hold it for second or two, or three after they tap so they can fully appreciate its efficacy. Most of the BJJ guys have never felt a proper wrist lock and when they do, boy does it get their attention. It also makes them instantaneously less grabby. They're so often concerned with not getting choked out, that they forget about good ol' pain compliance (crude, but effective). It's also humbling from a psychological point of view because it is so quick and effective.
Of course, if none of that works and he does get you to the ground, get into full mount, take your thumbs and drive them into his eye sockets and start doing push ups (literally). I assure they WILL comply with great expedience. Another oldie but goodie is to physically bite their nose while in full mount. You can choose to bite it off fully at your discretion. Look at what a little bite on the ear did to "Iron" Mike Tyson. Image that was your nose and realize you're not 10% as tough as Mike. Heck, you can stop a Great White Shark if you hit him hard enough on the nose and do the eye gouge trick, which means a BJJ guy should is a piece of cake.
It's simply a matter of how far you're willing to go. I practice MARTIAL arts. Martial=military=killing/potentially lethal. If someone wants to study grapple-sport-competition-entertainment that's something else entirely and I could care less.
Good luck getting into full mount against a BJJ player, and if you somehow manage to get there, good luck staying there long enough to eye gouge or bite. By the way, the whole eye gouging defence is ridiculous anyway: check out this video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rFYDb9Ki5o0. BJJ is the most martial (potentially lethal), martial art I have ever experienced; sport or not, the techniques are very real and deadly if needed.

The multiple opponent argument, never go to the ground; good idea. But what if you have to? Wouldn't it be nice to know how to quickly choke someone unconscious, or dislocate an arm, then get the hell out of there? Again, if you are mounted with multiple opponents the Bjj player knows many escapes. It is extremely short sighted thinking to just assume that you wont end up on the ground.

If you can afford it, and have the time, learn the ground game! Bjj + Aikido should be very complimentary. Just watch some Roy Dean clips for examples.
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Old 01-06-2014, 02:03 PM   #403
Garth Jones
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Re: What technique would you apply to neutralize Brazilian Jujitsu attacker

This thread won't die!

For everybody who keeps referencing Mike Tyson and the famous ear biting incident - Tyson was the biter and Evander Holyfield was the victim of the bite.
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Old 01-29-2014, 12:32 AM   #404
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Re: What technique would you apply to neutralize Brazilian Jujitsu attacker

Forgive me for making this simple . . . How do you defend? Like any other move. Keep your balance, take his. If he grabs, blend and throw. If he kicks, move then control. If you do not know how to do these things yet, you still have many classes to attend. If they like the ground . . . stay off it and don't use pins that put you both there.

Balance and Ki solve many difficult situations, whether in the street or the board room.
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Old 01-30-2014, 03:18 AM   #405
Richard Vader
 
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Re: What technique would you apply to neutralize Brazilian Jujitsu attacker

To defend myself from I BJJ guy I have a very effective technique. Before he grabs you make a turn so your back is towards him. Then put your left foot before your right, now put your right foot before your left, repeat very fast.... run, just, run!

Disclaimer: all stated above has the potential of being complete nonsense
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Old 01-31-2014, 10:53 PM   #406
kfa4303
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Re: What technique would you apply to neutralize Brazilian Jujitsu attacker

Thanks for the correction. Yes, Mike was the biter and Holyfield the victim. Either way, they're both bigger, stronger and tougher than any of us will ever be, yet a simple bite to the ear (not even a vital organ) stopped him in his tracks. Just imagine it was his nose. If you hit ANY creature in the nose properly, you will DROP them instantly. With regards to your statement that "BJJ is the most martial (potentially lethal), martial art I have ever experienced" clearly indicates you're new to martial arts and haven't experienced very much. Even the (not so) mighty Gracies will be the first to tell you that their techniques are for sport first, self-defense second and were never intended to be "potentially lethal". While the BJJ self-defense techniques are very effective, they are also heavily modified for street applications where "going to the ground" with your opponent(s) is never advisable. Oh, and BJJ players get caught in full mount all day every day. After all, why do you think they teach techniques for getting out of mount, unless you've been put in it to begin with? There's also a reason why eye gauging is ban in ALL fight sports, save Vale Tudo (I think)? Because it works incredibly well, that's why. You can debate weather it's "noble" or not, but if someone is truly attacking me and/or my loved ones, I could care less. They'll be lucky to be alive after I'm done with them.

Of course, not all BJJ players are of equal skill level either. After all, just because someone plays the violin, doesn't mean they're actually any good at it. There are many people who have been practicing their chosen art for years and years that are just awful. They aren't good now and they never will be, but they have fun all the same. Kind of like the kid in band class with no rhythm. He can't keep a beat to save his life, but he's got heart, which counts for a lot, but to call him a musician would be a lie. Still don't believe me? Just go to your local college, or high school for that matter, and ask to take a roll on the mat with the Captain of the Wrestling team. Feel free to use all the BJJ you want.....if you can They're not even "martial artists", just a bunch of dumb jocks and yet they can throw must of us around like a rag dolls.

Self-Defense is simple really, just be willing to do WHATEVER it takes to survive. That is all. This generally entails hitting a soft thing with a hard thing. A nose with a fist, a skull with a bat, body with a bullet. You get the idea.

Here are some clips of fellas having a tough time in the mount from the bottom position. Can you say ground and pound? It happens to the best of them. So, if you're taking someone(s) to the ground you better dang sure be good, if not, you will loose badly and often.
Again, with all things being equal, the high ground wins. Planes are better than tanks, cavalry is better than infantry, standing is better than kneeling, mount is better than guard. This is also why virtually all Aikido waza end with uke on the mat and nage in a "superior" (i.e. kneeling or standing) position.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H_mxPgYe1wM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-LKADggv018
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PaVTmziMNjw
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PJz8YQ5rXZw (why teach how to get out of mount if it never happens, right?)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VtkM2SPaSJ8 ("What happens when you get a customer that thinks he's Charles Bronson?" jump to :42 mark)

Clearly you're new to martial arts and love BJJ, but don't get caught in the trap of thinking one art is inherently superior to another. They all have strengths and weaknesses, even (especially?) BJJ. Besides, it all comes down to the individual practitioner in the end, not the style they choose to use. After all, it's the size of the fight in the dog, not the size of the dog in the fight.

Last edited by kfa4303 : 01-31-2014 at 11:01 PM.
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Old 01-31-2014, 11:08 PM   #407
kfa4303
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Re: What technique would you apply to neutralize Brazilian Jujitsu attacker

Quote:
Richard Vader wrote: View Post
To defend myself from I BJJ guy I have a very effective technique. Before he grabs you make a turn so your back is towards him. Then put your left foot before your right, now put your right foot before your left, repeat very fast.... run, just, run!
Again, just because they're a BJJ player doesn't make them immortal, or unbeatable. On the contrary, the best fighters in the world today (Silva, Weidman, Emiliananko, Jones) are all lights-out strikers. Quite frankly, the BJJ code has been cracked from some time now. Also, from a purely tactical standpoint, NEVER give up your back to a BJJ player, or anyone else for that matter. Better to stand your ground.

"One day as a lion is worth a lifetime as a lamb."
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Old 02-01-2014, 10:37 AM   #408
kfa4303
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Re: What technique would you apply to neutralize Brazilian Jujitsu attacker

Also, this.

http://i.imgur.com/euLq22x.gif

What did I tell ya? Crude, but effective
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Old 02-01-2014, 03:18 PM   #409
Kevin Leavitt
 
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Re: What technique would you apply to neutralize Brazilian Jujitsu attacker

Karl Arant wrote:

Quote:
d" clearly indicates you're new to martial arts and haven't experienced very much. Even the (not so) mighty Gracies will be the first to tell you that their techniques are for sport first, self-defense second
Actually you will find the exact opposite. Most of the old school Gracies lament the direction that many BJJ schools have taken the art. Helio Gracie was adamant about the fact that SD was first and foremost the concern of BJJ. My friends the Valente brothers in Miami are very, very clear about this and it is very evident when you train in their gym.

Quote:
There's also a reason why eye gauging is ban in ALL fight sports, save Vale Tudo (I think)? Because it works incredibly well, that's why.
No it was banned because it is incredibly stupid and dangerous to poke someone's eyes out. Has nothing to do with effective or ineffective. Of course it is effective, but that is not why it was banned.

Eye gouging is not really a special skill pretty much anyone can do it. However, putting yourself in an effective position to gouge someones eyes...that does require a modicum of skill, hence why the emphasis is on the obtainment of position and not on the eye gouge aspect.

Quote:
not all BJJ players are of equal skill level either. After all, just because someone plays the violin, doesn't mean they're actually any good at it.
Which is why lineage is important in BJJ and why there is a belt system. Also, the mat don't lie. so, how good you are becomes apparent very quickly.

Quote:
Just go to your local college, or high school for that matter, and ask to take a roll on the mat with the Captain of the Wrestling team. Feel free to use all the BJJ you want.....if you can They're not even "martial artists", just a bunch of dumb jocks and yet they can throw must of us around like a rag dolls.
Has not been my experience generically. In fact it is the exact opposite, and not because wrestlers are not any good at what they do, it is because they have a very specific rule set and train to exploit and capitalize on those rules. A BJJer has a much broader set of rules and parameters, thus you will find that if you put a wrestler on the mat with a BJJer with comparable skills, the wrestler does not do as well under less restrictive rule set. However, the same is true if you restrict a BJJer to wrestling rules with no experience in that sport. What you learn from this is that rules, or lack of rules matter and need to be considered when you train.

Quote:
Self-Defense is simple really, just be willing to do WHATEVER it takes to survive.
Its not all that simple all the time. simplicity depends on many things. just because you are WILLING does not mean you are ABLE. I've been studying this stuff for about 25 years now and I have not found it necessarily to be "simple". The SD environment can be quite complex.

Quote:
This generally entails hitting a soft thing with a hard thing. A nose with a fist, a skull with a bat, body with a bullet. You get the idea.
This assumes that you have a high degree of control of the situation, when in fact, in most SD situations you may typically have a high degree of failure, thus lack of control that you have to work to make up for. Thus, why things are not so simple.

Quote:
Here are some clips of fellas having a tough time in the mount from the bottom position. Can you say ground and pound?
I no of no one I have studied with the advocates taking someone to the ground as a SD strategy. However, again, failure in SD may dictate that this is where you end up and you need to have skills to mitigate that situation.

The ground and pound fight strategy works very well for MMA because of the constraints of the rules. It may or may not be a good strategy for SD. I had someone ask me the other day how fights end...alot of them end because someone else shows up. Could be your buddy, his buddy, or a neutral party. Ground and Pound in SD when others might be involved may not play out the way it does in the ring. Again, good skills to have and understand, but also need to consider that GnP has its limitations as a SD strategy. I can go on for a long time about how GnP is essentially a "battle of attrition" ...but I think the point is fairly well illustrated.

Quote:
Planes are better than tanks, cavalry is better than infantry, standing is better than kneeling, mount is better than guard.
As an Infantry Officer, I would beg to differ on this. The reality is that one is not better than the other, they all have strengths and weaknesses and the Leader that can properly employ these tools Strategically, Operationally, and Tactically...that is understands the ART, will be successful.

The same is true of SD and fighting skills. You need to have a varied background and understand the environment and how to employ what and when.

I do agree that all MA have their strengths and weaknesses and BJJ is no exception. We have to work very hard to understand the environment and how our own paradigms, experiences, cultures, training, skills interact in that environment. This is no easy task IMO and is a lifelong pursuit.

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Old 02-01-2014, 04:05 PM   #410
Dave de Vos
 
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Re: What technique would you apply to neutralize Brazilian Jujitsu attacker

Quote:
Karl Arant wrote: View Post
Also, this.

http://i.imgur.com/euLq22x.gif

What did I tell ya? Crude, but effective
Only after watching that 4 times it dawned on me what happened there
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Old 02-09-2014, 08:18 PM   #411
Riai Maori
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Re: What technique would you apply to neutralize Brazilian Jujitsu attacker

Nike or Adidas
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Old 03-10-2014, 02:19 PM   #412
camt
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Re: What technique would you apply to neutralize Brazilian Jujitsu attacker

Quote:
Karl Arant wrote: View Post
Thanks for the correction. Yes, Mike was the biter and Holyfield the victim. Either way, they're both bigger, stronger and tougher than any of us will ever be, yet a simple bite to the ear (not even a vital organ) stopped him in his tracks. Just imagine it was his nose. If you hit ANY creature in the nose properly, you will DROP them instantly. With regards to your statement that "BJJ is the most martial (potentially lethal), martial art I have ever experienced" clearly indicates you're new to martial arts and haven't experienced very much. Even the (not so) mighty Gracies will be the first to tell you that their techniques are for sport first, self-defense second and were never intended to be "potentially lethal". While the BJJ self-defense techniques are very effective, they are also heavily modified for street applications where "going to the ground" with your opponent(s) is never advisable. Oh, and BJJ players get caught in full mount all day every day. After all, why do you think they teach techniques for getting out of mount, unless you've been put in it to begin with? There's also a reason why eye gauging is ban in ALL fight sports, save Vale Tudo (I think)? Because it works incredibly well, that's why. You can debate weather it's "noble" or not, but if someone is truly attacking me and/or my loved ones, I could care less. They'll be lucky to be alive after I'm done with them. .
Clearly, you know very little about BJJ. Your statement about the Gracies "being the first to tell you that their techniques are for sport" is ridiculous and ignorant. The Gracies held Vale Tudo matches to prove the effectiveness of the art in real self defense situations; eye gouging and all. Oh, and sure some BJJ players aren't as good as others, but unlike other martial arts there is no way to fool others about your abilities. As Kevin says, the mats don't lie.

As for your "BJJ players get caught in mount," well yeah, against other BJJ players. Obviously we train getting out of mount in BJJ and also how to get into mount and maintain it. What was your point?

PS-- Every choke in jiu jitsu is potentially lethal. Ridiculous to say otherwise.
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