Welcome to AikiWeb Aikido Information
AikiWeb: The Source for Aikido Information
AikiWeb's principal purpose is to serve the Internet community as a repository and dissemination point for aikido information.

Sections
home
aikido articles
columns

Discussions
forums
aikiblogs

Databases
dojo search
seminars
image gallery
supplies
links directory

Reviews
book reviews
video reviews
dvd reviews
equip. reviews

News
submit
archive

Miscellaneous
newsletter
rss feeds
polls
about

Follow us on



Home > AikiWeb Aikido Forums
Go Back   AikiWeb Aikido Forums > Non-Aikido Martial Traditions

Hello and thank you for visiting AikiWeb, the world's most active online Aikido community! This site is home to over 22,000 aikido practitioners from around the world and covers a wide range of aikido topics including techniques, philosophy, history, humor, beginner issues, the marketplace, and more.

If you wish to join in the discussions or use the other advanced features available, you will need to register first. Registration is absolutely free and takes only a few minutes to complete so sign up today!

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old 01-26-2014, 10:34 AM   #1
Chris Li
 
Chris Li's Avatar
Dojo: Aikido Sangenkai
Location: Honolulu, Hawaii
Join Date: Dec 2000
Posts: 3,037
United_States
Offline
Sagawa Yukiyoshi, Masaru Takahashi en Adem Training in Daito-ryu

New blog post! "Sagawa Yukiyoshi, Masaru Takahashi en Adem Training in Daito-ryu" the Dutch version of “Sagawa Yukiyoshi, Masaru Takahashi and Breath Training in Daito-ryu“, courtesy of Ernesto Lemke.

Enjoy!

Chris

  Reply With Quote
Old 01-29-2014, 08:44 PM   #2
Chris Li
 
Chris Li's Avatar
Dojo: Aikido Sangenkai
Location: Honolulu, Hawaii
Join Date: Dec 2000
Posts: 3,037
United_States
Offline
Re: Sagawa Yukiyoshi, Masaru Takahashi en Adem Training in Daito-ryu

An interesting side note to the breath training mentioned here - as far back as 2008 Dan Harden insisted that there were breathing exercises in the Sagawa line (there are earlier examples, I know, but this is the one that came up first in search), in opposition to no small amount of sceptacism.

And when this article appears in current times - there is hardly a ripple of controversy. It's interesting to see how much things have changed.

Best,

Chris

  Reply With Quote
Old 01-30-2014, 07:14 AM   #3
Cliff Judge
Dojo: Aikido Shobukan Dojo
Location: Columbia, MD
Join Date: Sep 2005
Posts: 901
United_States
Offline
Re: Sagawa Yukiyoshi, Masaru Takahashi en Adem Training in Daito-ryu

Quote:
Christopher Li wrote: View Post
An interesting side note to the breath training mentioned here - as far back as 2008 Dan Harden insisted that there were breathing exercises in the Sagawa line (there are earlier examples, I know, but this is the one that came up first in search), in opposition to no small amount of sceptacism.

And when this article appears in current times - there is hardly a ripple of controversy. It's interesting to see how much things have changed.

Best,

Chris
Well it makes perfect sense that Sagawa's Daito ryu had breath training in it. He certainly brought in a lot of other stuff from Jikishinkage ryu.
  Reply With Quote
Old 01-30-2014, 09:24 AM   #4
Cliff Judge
Dojo: Aikido Shobukan Dojo
Location: Columbia, MD
Join Date: Sep 2005
Posts: 901
United_States
Offline
Re: Sagawa Yukiyoshi, Masaru Takahashi en Adem Training in Daito-ryu

Quote:
Cliff Judge wrote: View Post
Well it makes perfect sense that Sagawa's Daito ryu had breath training in it. He certainly brought in a lot of other stuff from Jikishinkage ryu.
I meant Sagawa, by the way.
  Reply With Quote
Old 01-30-2014, 09:29 AM   #5
Chris Li
 
Chris Li's Avatar
Dojo: Aikido Sangenkai
Location: Honolulu, Hawaii
Join Date: Dec 2000
Posts: 3,037
United_States
Offline
Re: Sagawa Yukiyoshi, Masaru Takahashi en Adem Training in Daito-ryu

Quote:
Cliff Judge wrote: View Post
I meant Sagawa, by the way.
Well, Takeda certainly had Jikishinkage influence - although I note that the article talks about Kogen Itto-ryu.

Best,

Chris

  Reply With Quote
Old 01-30-2014, 09:51 AM   #6
Cliff Judge
Dojo: Aikido Shobukan Dojo
Location: Columbia, MD
Join Date: Sep 2005
Posts: 901
United_States
Offline
Re: Sagawa Yukiyoshi, Masaru Takahashi en Adem Training in Daito-ryu

Quote:
Christopher Li wrote: View Post
Well, Takeda certainly had Jikishinkage influence - although I note that the article talks about Kogen Itto-ryu.

Best,

Chris
Hmmm. "Ya", "To", and "Ei" are fairly common kiai shapes...I wonder what the distinctions in Kogen Itto ryu are.

Re-reading this article today, I see some commentary I did not notice before on the idea that there is no vocalization in Daito ryu. Mainline Daito ryu certainly has that today, you can plainly see/hear it on any of the Kondo Sensei videos, and I think I saw a video of a Takumakai embu recently where they use "To!" when executing the finishing blow.
  Reply With Quote
Old 01-30-2014, 10:14 AM   #7
Chris Li
 
Chris Li's Avatar
Dojo: Aikido Sangenkai
Location: Honolulu, Hawaii
Join Date: Dec 2000
Posts: 3,037
United_States
Offline
Re: Sagawa Yukiyoshi, Masaru Takahashi en Adem Training in Daito-ryu

Quote:
Cliff Judge wrote: View Post
Hmmm. "Ya", "To", and "Ei" are fairly common kiai shapes...I wonder what the distinctions in Kogen Itto ryu are.

Re-reading this article today, I see some commentary I did not notice before on the idea that there is no vocalization in Daito ryu. Mainline Daito ryu certainly has that today, you can plainly see/hear it on any of the Kondo Sensei videos, and I think I saw a video of a Takumakai embu recently where they use "To!" when executing the finishing blow.
When I Was training with Kondo there was some basic vocalization at the end of things, but nothing very sophisticated or pervasive.

Best,

Chris

  Reply With Quote
Old 01-30-2014, 11:00 AM   #8
Budd
 
Budd's Avatar
Dojo: Taikyoku Aikido
Location: Williamsville, NY
Join Date: Aug 2003
Posts: 928
United_States
Offline
Re: Sagawa Yukiyoshi, Masaru Takahashi en Adem Training in Daito-ryu

Some of those stances and thoughts on breath are what make me question from the DR and other arts' lines what they consider breath power versus what would be considered breath power from a more traditional 6 harmonies perspective. I'm not convinced they're the same thing, but as was already mentioned, getting good info around what's being done is problematic at best.
  Reply With Quote
Old 01-30-2014, 11:16 AM   #9
Cliff Judge
Dojo: Aikido Shobukan Dojo
Location: Columbia, MD
Join Date: Sep 2005
Posts: 901
United_States
Offline
Re: Sagawa Yukiyoshi, Masaru Takahashi en Adem Training in Daito-ryu

Quote:
Budd Yuhasz wrote: View Post
Some of those stances and thoughts on breath are what make me question from the DR and other arts' lines what they consider breath power versus what would be considered breath power from a more traditional 6 harmonies perspective. I'm not convinced they're the same thing, but as was already mentioned, getting good info around what's being done is problematic at best.
Budd, could you share more about what a "more traditional 6 harmonies" perspective is?

The concept of breath power I've seen in mainline Daito ryu is similar to what I have seen in Jikishinkage ryu - and I don't think it would fit the "internal" frame at all. It's pretty much about packing in a lot of power and then releasing it in some way that breaks your opponent. It could be that both systems reserve different kinds of breath training for higher levels, of course.
  Reply With Quote
Old 01-30-2014, 11:27 AM   #10
Chris Li
 
Chris Li's Avatar
Dojo: Aikido Sangenkai
Location: Honolulu, Hawaii
Join Date: Dec 2000
Posts: 3,037
United_States
Offline
Re: Sagawa Yukiyoshi, Masaru Takahashi en Adem Training in Daito-ryu

Quote:
Cliff Judge wrote: View Post
The concept of breath power I've seen in mainline Daito ryu is similar to what I have seen in Jikishinkage ryu - and I don't think it would fit the "internal" frame at all. It's pretty much about packing in a lot of power and then releasing it in some way that breaks your opponent. It could be that both systems reserve different kinds of breath training for higher levels, of course.
Yes, that's pretty much what I saw in Shin-Koiwa with Kondo. Of course, there may well be things he does that I didn't see. OTOH, there are definitely 6H related methods from other traditional Daito-ryu lines.

Best,

Chris

  Reply With Quote
Old 01-30-2014, 12:03 PM   #11
Budd
 
Budd's Avatar
Dojo: Taikyoku Aikido
Location: Williamsville, NY
Join Date: Aug 2003
Posts: 928
United_States
Offline
Re: Sagawa Yukiyoshi, Masaru Takahashi en Adem Training in Daito-ryu

Well and there's the rub, packing in power to release with the breath is in most martial arts in some form - the devil is in the details of how it's done.
  Reply With Quote
Old 01-30-2014, 12:54 PM   #12
Cliff Judge
Dojo: Aikido Shobukan Dojo
Location: Columbia, MD
Join Date: Sep 2005
Posts: 901
United_States
Offline
Re: Sagawa Yukiyoshi, Masaru Takahashi en Adem Training in Daito-ryu

Quote:
Christopher Li wrote: View Post
Yes, that's pretty much what I saw in Shin-Koiwa with Kondo. Of course, there may well be things he does that I didn't see. OTOH, there are definitely 6H related methods from other traditional Daito-ryu lines.

Best,

Chris
But we seem to be counting Sagawa-den out along with Tokimune's line? So that leaves....?
  Reply With Quote
Old 01-30-2014, 01:03 PM   #13
Chris Li
 
Chris Li's Avatar
Dojo: Aikido Sangenkai
Location: Honolulu, Hawaii
Join Date: Dec 2000
Posts: 3,037
United_States
Offline
Re: Sagawa Yukiyoshi, Masaru Takahashi en Adem Training in Daito-ryu

Quote:
Cliff Judge wrote: View Post
But we seem to be counting Sagawa-den out along with Tokimune's line? So that leaves....?
I haven't counted either Sagawa or Tokimune out - I'm just saying what I saw at Kondo's dojo.

Best,

Chris

  Reply With Quote

Please visit our sponsor:

Aikido DVDs and Video Downloads - by George Ledyard Sensei & other great teachers from AikidoDVDS.Com



Reply


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Transmission, Inheritance, Emulation 24 Peter Goldsbury Columns 6 07-07-2013 05:40 PM
The Nage/Uke Dynamic - Guidelines senshincenter General 47 02-20-2006 05:20 PM
When Can an Instructor Stop Training? Magma General 42 10-20-2004 01:51 AM
Shu Ha Ri akiy General 21 07-12-2004 02:32 AM


All times are GMT -6. The time now is 02:30 PM.



vBulletin Copyright © 2000-2014 Jelsoft Enterprises Limited
----------
Copyright 1997-2014 AikiWeb and its Authors, All Rights Reserved.
----------
For questions and comments about this website:
Send E-mail
plainlaid-picaresque outchasing-protistan explicantia-altarage seaford-stellionate