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Old 01-24-2014, 12:26 PM   #26
jadee
Location: New York, NY
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Re: Leading your uke?

Oy vey, computer crash and now having to follow another excellent post from Ledyard Sensei...

Given that you list your dojo as USAF, have you seen Yamada Sensei's videos showing these (granted, from years ago)? Several here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nJWrOa-jkCU

Interestingly, he demonstrates these techniques similarly to the way Saotome Sensei has; the "narrative" of the waza is that nage has messed up and uke has slipped behind and the waza is about recovering from this terrible position, which is consistent with a position that uke and nage engage in a fluid martial situation... perhaps you can discuss creating a progressively more static/challenging situation with your uke so that you can identify the point at which how you do things stop working?

I also can't resist watching Saito Sensei on these matters for static start - my latest focus, for whatever that's worth, is feeling it as kokyu ho with asagao-no-te going on, etc...
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Old 01-24-2014, 01:06 PM   #27
tlk52
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Re: Leading your uke?

I think that what George Ledyard just said above is on the money.
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Old 01-24-2014, 01:27 PM   #28
allowedcloud
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Re: Leading your uke?

Just by chance I came across this article today by David Orange (who was a student of Minoru Mochizuki) that discusses many of these issues. I found it an interesting read

http://www.aikidoacademyusa.com/view...php?f=11&t=284
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Old 01-24-2014, 01:40 PM   #29
Janet Rosen
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Re: Leading your uke?

Ledyard Sensei expressed it perfectly.
At the other extreme was my experience...being uke for a young, longlimbed fit guy a foot taller than me. He wanted me to run around him to grab the second hand. As he was "leading", this would necessitate me literally sprinting at a dead heat in a circle around him. After doing it once, I respectfully asked him how this could by any stretch be considered an attack. I was told "this is the correct way."
I was 4 th kyu at the time and he a nidan. And yeah there is a point at which one is supposed to have faith in the teaching. But damnit that was just wrong.

Janet Rosen
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Old 01-24-2014, 02:04 PM   #30
SteveTrinkle
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Re: Leading your uke?

TakedaYoshinobu Sensei is the absolute best I've ever felt at this he says enigmatically
""make a vacumand let uke be drawn into it it's weird to feel him do it this should be in the IHTBFColumnperhaps

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Old 01-24-2014, 02:51 PM   #31
hughrbeyer
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Re: Leading your uke?

In O-Sensei's Budo, if I have it right, he talks about how one challenge of an ushiro technique is that you don't know when uke is going to grab you so you have to respond to an unanticipated attack. Which suggests that all these ushiro attacks where uke comes from the front and runs around nage are very much missing the point. Our very own Kevin L talks about the important of training to start from a compromised position--I see the ushiro techniques as being training for that.

Evolution doesn't prove God doesn't exist, any more than hammers prove carpenters don't exist.
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Old 01-24-2014, 03:44 PM   #32
Mary Eastland
 
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Re: Leading your uke?

I agree with some of what you wrote, George.

However not this,
'
Quote:
George S. Ledyard wrote: View Post
. If someone attempts to "lead" an attack and doesn't do it properly, the uke should apply a counter.
If students train this way in the beginning nothing can be accomplished. Leading and following are important parts of the art that we practice. The role of uke takes a lot of skill. It can't be accomplished in an atmosphere where everyone wants to counter.

Uke should not be taught to counter until they reach a certain understanding of aikido training.

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Old 01-24-2014, 03:51 PM   #33
Janet Rosen
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Re: Leading your uke?

Quote:
Joshua Landin wrote: View Post
Just by chance I came across this article today by David Orange (who was a student of Minoru Mochizuki) that discusses many of these issues. I found it an interesting read

http://www.aikidoacademyusa.com/view...php?f=11&t=284
Worth reading. Thank you for the link!

Janet Rosen
http://www.zanshinart.com
"peace will enter when hate is gone"--percy mayfield
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Old 01-24-2014, 05:32 PM   #34
George S. Ledyard
 
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Re: Leading your uke?

Quote:
Mary Eastland wrote: View Post
I agree with some of what you wrote, George.

However not this,
'

If students train this way in the beginning nothing can be accomplished. Leading and following are important parts of the art that we practice. The role of uke takes a lot of skill. It can't be accomplished in an atmosphere where everyone wants to counter.

Uke should not be taught to counter until they reach a certain understanding of aikido training.
I didn't say at the beginning. There's nothing except cooperative training that can be done before a certain point. But once they reach a point, certainly yudansha level, they should start training this way.
The uke is there to enhance the learning of the nage. The lack of feedback from uke about "suki" or openings or ineffective attempts to get kuzushi is what hurts Aikido quality more than any single thing.

I'm not saying you counter them every time. If nage makes a mistake, there should be a counter, instantly. The uke needs to be trained to sense the opportunity and execute the kaeshiwaza instantly, before the opening is closed. If it becomes apparent that nage has a technical issue and doesn't know how to correct the problem, then you have to slow things down and perhaps ask the teacher to assist.

But it is crucial to the quality practice of the art that uke and nage not be separate practices. Both should be doing the same thing, trying to get to the partner's center. If uke is doing one thing and nage is doing another the body / mind just doesn't develop the automatic responses they need to in order to become good martial artists.

George S. Ledyard
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Old 01-24-2014, 05:39 PM   #35
George S. Ledyard
 
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Re: Leading your uke?

Quote:
Jason Rudolph wrote: View Post
I agree that the Ushiro attack is a pretty silly attack. I believe that I read somewhere, probably in a John Stevens book that Osensei believed that it was unsound to let someone get behind you but that Ushiro taught that one can still recover if they do. Also, to just stand there like a tree seems tactically unsound as well. I think of Randori and Ushiro similarly in that way. In that context, the attacker/s have to grab you where you want them to or at least where they are able to and not just Teeing off on where they want to and how they want to.
O-Sensei stated that (and this applies to allowing the uke to actually be behind you and initiate an attack) ushiro waza was about training your intuition. By that he meant training your other senses to perceive an attack rather than simply using just the eyes.

The Ura practice of the uke starting in the front and attempting to slip to the rear, resulting on our beautiful spiral waza, is a connection exercise and is not representative of applied technique. It's more a test of ones ability to connect and stay connected through a complex series of movements without leaving an opening for uke to counter or strike you.

George S. Ledyard
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Old 01-29-2014, 05:46 AM   #36
Mary Eastland
 
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Re: Leading your uke?

Last night in class Ron stressed again how leading was not about running around with your arm extended for uke to catch....I got that the idea was not about leading uke by the nose but by connecting with his body, mind and energy.

Nage can take uke's choices away by being fully present and moving in the void of the combined energy to create the harmony of a throw.

If that sounds like aiki bunny I understand. It really is a feeling that is hard to describe yet I fully understand it because as uke my legs go away and I no am able to stand up. As nage I can feel the precise moment of when uke no longer has their balance and can be easily thrown.

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