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Old 01-19-2014, 09:56 AM   #51
Demetrio Cereijo
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Re: Teacher OKs "Avoid[ing] touching females on religious grounds"

Quote:
John Hillson wrote: View Post
For the young woman who was offended at being told to get over her outrage, I would recommend she read Angry White Pyjamas. If she moved to Japan to the Yoshinkan head dojo, she might not find an environment she would find respectful and supportive. it sounded brutal and challenging.
I think the man should move to Japan, sign for the kenshukai course and make there his religious requests.

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Old 01-19-2014, 10:01 AM   #52
Mary Eastland
 
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Re: Teacher OKs "Avoid[ing] touching females on religious grounds"

If you can't train with every single person at our dojo you need to find another dojo. And you can give out your any kind of flyers somewhere else.

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Old 01-19-2014, 11:23 AM   #53
sakumeikan
Dojo: Sakumeikan N.E. Aikkai .Newcastle upon Tyne.
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Re: Teacher OKs "Avoid[ing] touching females on religious grounds"

Quote:
Lynn Seiser wrote: View Post
We fought for people to have the right to stand-up shout-out and protest the action that gave them that right that they now feel entitled to.

I am always happy to hear people stand-up and speak-out, even if I don't agree with them. It sorta means it was all worth it.

We too have a right to the soap-box, please stand-tall never stand-down.
Dear Seiser Sensei,
While I accept that freedom of speech /expression is a good concept, I cannot always accept this concept fully.The reasons are simple, such freedom of speech can be and is dangerous.Would you be happy if people expressed views ,whether right wing/left wing/religious views etc which clearly could be dangerous ?We have had recently had a criminal case herein the U.K where a couple of gents with a radical view of Islam, decided to virtually hack off the head of a off duty soldier.In court these two guys tried to justify their actions by saying they were supporting their Muslim 'Brothers' in their stand against the West.Incidentally the guys in question had never been anywhere near any Muslim country as far as was known. Both of these men it would appear were indoctrinated by so called religious persons.Would you take actions against such persons or do you feel that the aforementioned guys have the right to express their views? If by chance a neo Nazi group was chit chatting in your area, spouting out bile, would you say ok by me, freedom of speech even for idiots , right on?Have a nice day, Cheers, Joe.
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Old 01-19-2014, 12:00 PM   #54
PeterR
 
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Re: Teacher OKs "Avoid[ing] touching females on religious grounds"

Quote:
Mary Eastland wrote: View Post
If you can't train with every single person at our dojo you need to find another dojo. And you can give out your any kind of flyers somewhere else.
I knew a teacher who was confronted by a young lady who insisted that she would not train with men and it was her right to impose her needs on a working dojo. I wont go into the background of her beliefs but his answer was brilliant. He said he was happy to teach her Aikido but she had to arrange a sizable enough group to make it work out. He doubled his income and student base.

Peter Rehse Shodokan Aikido
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Old 01-19-2014, 01:24 PM   #55
hughrbeyer
Dojo: Shobu Aikido of Boston
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Re: Teacher OKs "Avoid[ing] touching females on religious grounds"

The more I think about this story, the more I think the real problem is distributing tracts recommending hitting your wife as a form of correction. IF he was really doing this, that would be grounds for kicking him and his trash out the door on the spot, so far as I'm concerned.

Evolution doesn't prove God doesn't exist, any more than hammers prove carpenters don't exist.
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Old 01-19-2014, 06:12 PM   #56
SeiserL
 
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Re: Teacher OKs "Avoid[ing] touching females on religious grounds"

Quote:
Joe Curran wrote: View Post
Dear Seiser Sensei,
While I accept that freedom of speech /expression is a good concept, I cannot always accept this concept fully.The reasons are simple, such freedom of speech can be and is dangerous.Would you be happy if people expressed views ,whether right wing/left wing/religious views etc which clearly could be dangerous ?
Greetings,

Dangerous to who?

Certainly I do not agree, but they don't agree with me either. They would (and do) say that our freedom of thought, belief, and expression is dangerous to them. Am I to agree with them? Do we quiet every voice of opposition? That would only show the weakness of our belief and character. If your position/resolve cannot stand a little opposition, then its pretty fragile. As long as I don't take it personally, the talk is about them, not me. I am strong enough in my beliefs not to take it as a threat.

Of course, If they tried to act on it, I may just have to put them down. LOL

Lynn Seiser PhD
Yondan Aikido & FMA/JKD
We do not rise to the level of our expectations, but fall to the level of our training. Train well. KWATZ!
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Old 01-19-2014, 07:10 PM   #57
Janet Rosen
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Re: Teacher OKs "Avoid[ing] touching females on religious grounds"

Quote:
Mary Eastland wrote: View Post
If you can't train with every single person at our dojo you need to find another dojo. And you can give out your any kind of flyers somewhere else.
Not true. There are from time to time beginners who simply cannot control their bodies and pose a danger to me, even with my experience, because of my multiple joint issues. They need to be permitted to learn...just not on/with someone like me.

Janet Rosen
http://www.zanshinart.com
"peace will enter when hate is gone"--percy mayfield
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Old 01-19-2014, 07:52 PM   #58
RonRagusa
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Re: Teacher OKs "Avoid[ing] touching females on religious grounds"

Quote:
Janet Rosen wrote: View Post
Not true. There are from time to time beginners who simply cannot control their bodies and pose a danger to me, even with my experience, because of my multiple joint issues. They need to be permitted to learn...just not on/with someone like me.
You've totally missed Mary's point Janet.

Ron

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Old 01-19-2014, 08:55 PM   #59
Michael Hackett
Dojo: Kenshinkan Dojo (Aikido of North County) Vista, CA
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Re: Teacher OKs "Avoid[ing] touching females on religious grounds"

Joe, in the example you cited, the actions of the men were the issue and not the words they used. We celebrate freedom of speech here in the US, even the speech of the inflammatory and stupid and vile. If we don't protect the rights of each to that basic right, when will my freedom of speech be restricted? When will some BJJ guy come to power and prohibit me from speaking about aikido?

Not being able to freely express thoughts and ideas is more dangerous than the thoughts and ideas themselves.

I am a strong proponent of Voltaire's "I may not agree with what you say, but will defend to the death your right to say it."

Michael
"Leave the gun. Bring the cannoli."
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Old 01-20-2014, 09:37 AM   #60
phitruong
Dojo: Charlotte Aikikai Agatsu Dojo
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Re: Teacher OKs "Avoid[ing] touching females on religious grounds"

two things i learned from this thread,
1. don't trust the press to paint the whole picture
2. history taught us to avoid religious war like the plague. if you can't, then change religion (except if you are a man then change religion has a whole different other meaning).
3. like Voltaire and hot baguette and coffee
4. i can't count worth a damn

"budo is putting on cold, wet, sweat stained gi with a smile and a snarl" - your truly
http://charlotteaikikai.org
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Old 01-20-2014, 10:21 AM   #61
Demetrio Cereijo
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Re: Teacher OKs "Avoid[ing] touching females on religious grounds"

Quote:
Michael Hackett wrote: View Post
I am a strong proponent of Voltaire's "I may not agree with what you say, but will defend to the death your right to say it."
Voltaire never said it.

Of course you are totally free to misquote him as I am free to call you on it.

Freedom of Speech does not mean Freedom from Consequences.


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Old 01-20-2014, 11:01 AM   #62
Michael Hackett
Dojo: Kenshinkan Dojo (Aikido of North County) Vista, CA
Location: Oceanside, California
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Re: Teacher OKs "Avoid[ing] touching females on religious grounds"

Demetrio,
Correct on both counts. That quote that I incorrectly attributed to Voltaire himself was written by S. G. Tallentyre in "Friends of Voltaire", suggesting that was his personal philosophy.

You exercised your right to call me on my error, and as painful as it was, I support you. (LOL, I actually appreciate it and will forward the information to my local newspaper where it is posted under the banner.)

One can speak his mind freely, but there can be consequences - just not from the government in the United States under most circumstances.

Maybe this should be a thread of it's own......

Michael
"Leave the gun. Bring the cannoli."
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Old 01-25-2014, 08:45 PM   #63
genego
Location: Missouri
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Re: Teacher OKs "Avoid[ing] touching females on religious grounds"

Below are the first two paragraphs from the second article on this situation. As far as I can see, no class was segregated by sex. Throughout the 60 plus responses, people keep insisting that the class was segregated. It wasn't. The female student trained for five months before deciding that the policy made her feel like a second class citizen. Apparently she didn't have an immediate visceral reaction, but took five months to become offended. She decided that her right to force the individual to train with her trumped his deeply held religious beliefs. As far as I can ascertain from the news accounting, he distributed a religious pamphlet, once, which was against the rules of the Dojo, and it never happened again.
The woman in question said that she couldn't go to the same dojo as someone who 'thinks that way'. Her decision, her prerogative. Bearing in mind that there are approximately 1.5 Billion people who practice Islam, I wonder if she won't shop at a store operated by someone who is Islamic, leave a college class if some class members are Islamic, refuse to order fast food from someone who is Islamic. With 1.5 Billion members Islam is the second largest religion in the world. She is going to cross paths with them in many different scenarios. Is she going to be allowed to foist her beliefs on others, to insist that they behave in a manner which is against their religion?

From the National Post, January 17, 2014
Article By Tristan Harper

Instructors and students at Halifax's East Coast Yoshinkan Aikido are standing by their school's decision to accommodate a student's request not to touch women on religious grounds, arguing that the policy was not a big deal.
"It didn't really affect how other people trained, female students were still training with all the students they had been training with before, the only difference was they weren't training with this one particular student," said Philip Parsons, an instructor at the school.

"It was never really an issue."
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