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Old 01-20-2014, 01:07 AM   #51
Carl Thompson
 
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Re: Banned from Aikido...

Whatever is going on with the OP, it seems that there are too many unclear issues to give any appropriate advice or solution on this forum. However, some interesting related discussion has developed.

The idea of whether or not two people can legally get together and kick the s#%t out of each other is an interesting one. I'm from the same country as the OP and in my experience, this is not the case, although it can be a grey area. I had some acquaintances (friends of friends) who fell out and had a nasty habit of wrecking bars as well as each other in their feud. It was causing a nasty atmosphere among that particular circle when both were present, since it pretty much spelled a spoiled evening, collateral damage from restraining lunatics, hospital visits and explanations to bar-owners and police. Eventually they were told to sort it out properly and since most of their peers were Muay Thai or MMA practitioners, it was decided that they should do it in an organised, but private duel with proper rules to ensure safety and keep the rozzers (police) at bay. It was very interesting reading my friend's review of the match. The main thing was, the police didn't get involved and if they had, I doubt they would have been particularly bothered. If one of them had died maybe things would have been different, but barring a severe maiming, this seems to me like the kind of event that would probably never make it to court. I disliked both guys anyway since I'd had run-ins with them myself, but in any case, there was a winner and although they never became best buddies or anything, they stopped quarreling and agreed to get on thereafter.

In contrast, I know a guy who put another in intensive care after attacking him with a pool cue in a bar because he was rude about his girlfriend. The whole event was captured on CCTV and for a while, it looked like he'd be spending a reasonable stretch in prison, despite the other guy saying he didn't want to press charges and "had wanted the fight". Luckily, the police "lost" the footage.

As Chris Li pointed out, many of the founder's students engaged in (what I would regard as) more civilized versions of what I described above. Osensei created aikido in Iwama which was, and remains to an extent, a fairly rough town. The first aikido students got into many brawls on purpose to test their skills and it didn't require much effort on their part. Where sake was drunk, there would be trouble and when patrons saw the likes of Saito Shihan and Isoyama Sensei rolling up, they would drop the noren curtain to indicate the establishment was closed. Even today, many regard that time as "the good old days" although I think the main thing that has changed is that spending time in a holding cell as a grandfather is kind of embarrassing. Iwama is a bit sleepier now (there are far fewer bars) but it remains quite rough and ready.

Carl
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Old 01-20-2014, 04:36 AM   #52
Beholder
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Re: Banned from Aikido...

Quote:
Carl Thompson wrote: View Post

The idea of whether or not two people can legally get together and kick the s#%t out of each other is an interesting one. I'm from the same country as the OP and in my experience, this is not the case, although it can be a grey area.

[snip]

Carl
Hmm, well then. In the UK, a rather infamous case (the "Spanner Case") is sometimes used to demonstrate that the courts have ruled that consent in itself does not mean assault is lawful:

Full ruling of R v Brown <-- for the brave

Wikipedia summary

A couple of key points that make this relevant: the charges were brought by the crown, that is, not because the "victims" had changed their mind about consent (they hadn't); and actually the ruling expressly mentions cutting the skinů which is at least curious, from a moral point of view.

Note that this judgement remains controversial, and if you do look at the full text (and search for "fighting" for example) you can see that the lords were aware of the potential implications of the judgement relating to things outside of the, um, particular activity that this case was originally about (i.e., people up to something that sounds to me even weirder than aikido). It's a handy case to cite in conversations in which even the merest whiff of a smokescreen of machismo honour fights is being thrown up to suggest you can consent to being beaten up. Basically, in the UK, you can't, and perhaps more usefully it shows that the law often isn't interested in what you want ;-)

Yours
Dave
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Old 01-20-2014, 08:06 AM   #53
john2054
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Re: Banned from Aikido...

The problem with this argument is that i had no intention of hitting the woman. And if she had hit me there is no way the police would have charged her. I would have been seen as the blame of the fight, being the man. But like i said, no charges would have been pressed. it is a hypothetical argument. i wanted a scrap but the man said no. and no means NO! If it had been forced, then a forced result would have happened. Aikido teaches self defence. that means block when hit. or move out of the way. I cannot win a fight against the world if no-one is on my side.
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Old 01-20-2014, 09:36 AM   #54
Michael Douglas
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Re: Banned from Aikido...

Quote:
John Robinson wrote: View Post
The problem with this argument is that i had no intention of hitting the woman. .
Well then Grasshopper, you had already lost.

"Hit first! Then twisty!" I'm sure my translation is a bit off (Chris Li?) but O'Sensei said that, didn't he?
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Old 01-20-2014, 10:21 AM   #55
Brian Gillaspie
 
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Re: Banned from Aikido...

Quote:
John Robinson wrote: View Post
The problem with this argument is that i had no intention of hitting the woman. And if she had hit me there is no way the police would have charged her. I would have been seen as the blame of the fight, being the man. But like i said, no charges would have been pressed. it is a hypothetical argument. i wanted a scrap but the man said no. and no means NO! If it had been forced, then a forced result would have happened. Aikido teaches self defence. that means block when hit. or move out of the way. I cannot win a fight against the world if no-one is on my side.
I would not recommend fighting the world because it's pretty big and the odds are against you . I also think that some people are on your side in regards to this situations. Ultimately this is your decision to make. You are both adults so if you want to have the fight with the girl then we can't stop you but just be ready to accept any potential consequences that come along with it.

Have you explained to your instructor that you would like to test your aikido? Maybe he can come up with a workable solution for you. I can't speak regarding legal issues but in my opinion doing this in a dojo (with your instructor's consent) with other people around is better than going out on your own to do it. At least with other people around they can step in if things go to far.

I've gone to my instructor many times and have asked "how would you handle something like this" and I've had students coming to me asking the same type of questions. We've always worked through it to figure out a solution, even if that means finding a wrestler, a BJJ practitioner, or a boxer to come in and work with us.
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Old 01-20-2014, 10:34 AM   #56
Dan Richards
 
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Re: Banned from Aikido...

Quote:
John Robinson wrote: View Post
Aikido teaches self defence. that means block when hit. or move out of the way.
There are no "blocks" in aikido.

Dan Richards - Aiki Research

"Budo must always reflect its surroundings. If it isn't newer and stronger, it isn't valid." - Shoji Nishio
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Old 01-20-2014, 10:57 AM   #57
Rob Watson
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Re: Banned from Aikido...

Quote:
John Robinson wrote: View Post
With my degree and mental health issues an ongoing concern, i do have other priorities you know?
Quote:
John Robinson wrote: View Post
listen ive got mental illness. ive been in hospitals where you CAN'T get away with talking like this in front of the staff. trust me it's like water of a ducks back.
The path is wide and long all the while filled with obstacles and distractions. In the timeless words of Pat Morita "Concentrate. Focus. Wax on - wax off." It takes a while to get it right.

Where is the light at the end of the tunnel when there is no tunnel?

"In my opinion, the time of spreading aikido to the world is finished; now we have to focus on quality." Yamada Yoshimitsu

Ultracrepidarianism ... don't.
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Old 01-20-2014, 11:03 AM   #58
PeterR
 
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Re: Banned from Aikido...

Quote:
Dan Richards wrote: View Post
There are no "blocks" in aikido.
Sure there are.

Peter Rehse Shodokan Aikido
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Old 01-20-2014, 12:30 PM   #59
john2054
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Re: Banned from Aikido...

Well, in case i hadn't mentioned already, the fight is off. Actually i have deleted her from my facebook profile, and banned her. Fini

As for doing it in a dojo, ive already suggested she come to mine, and she said no. OKAY? As for there being no blocks in Aikido, well you will probably say that there are no slaps either. But then if you go into the real world, outside your 'do' then what you may find is a little different, okay?
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Old 01-20-2014, 03:49 PM   #60
lbb
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Re: Banned from Aikido...

Quote:
John Robinson wrote: View Post
\
As for doing it in a dojo, ive already suggested she come to mine, and she said no. OKAY?
I don't think that's what Brian was suggesting. He suggested simply telling your sensei that you'd like to test your aikido, and listen to the solutions that he/she proposes. I believe the idea is that your sensei may be able to provide you with something that will give you feedback on your skill without the risks of getting into a throw-down.

I know you feel very put-upon right now, but people really are trying to tell you (with the best of intentions) why challenging someone to a fight on the internet can lead to very real problems, despite anyone's opinion about whether it's OK or whether you SHOULD be able to do it. There are people in your country and mine who think you should be able to punch the lights out of someone who looks at you sideways, and while they are free to have that opinion, they are not free of the consequences of that action. People are trying to help you.

Here's a link to something very intelligent on the subject that was written...wow. Was it really over 20 years ago? Anyway, written by a friend of mine, waaaay back when. It's called "High price of living at home" by Jeff Pipkins. Recommended reading for everyone who's struggling with this subject.
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Old 01-21-2014, 08:01 AM   #61
Campbell
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Re: Banned from Aikido...

Ok so I have a quick question.

How do two people fight using aikido? I see a lot of people saying that "I see nothing wrong with letting them test each other" and stuff like that but doesn't someone have to be the aggressor?

Didn't Morihei Ueshiba make Aikido to not have attacks?

So how would this fight take place....a staring contest? I don't get it...
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Old 01-21-2014, 08:08 AM   #62
Belt_Up
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Re: Banned from Aikido...

Shomen uchi, yoko menuchi, chudan tsuki, etc are all attacks.

/not to mention the "Aikido is whatever-percent-I-made-up-just-now atemi." line
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Old 01-21-2014, 08:23 AM   #63
Chris Li
 
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Re: Banned from Aikido...

Quote:
Brandon Coker wrote: View Post
Ok so I have a quick question.

How do two people fight using aikido? I see a lot of people saying that "I see nothing wrong with letting them test each other" and stuff like that but doesn't someone have to be the aggressor?

Didn't Morihei Ueshiba make Aikido to not have attacks?

So how would this fight take place....a staring contest? I don't get it...
That was a popular line at one time, but less so once more information came out, although some people still train that way. Morihei Ueshiba's Aikido, even in the later years, was quite aggressive and contained quite a bit of striking.

Since you've apparently decided on an ASU school - here's Saotome demonstrating a little of something like that:

http://youtu.be/MsZk7Eha1Us

Best,

Chris

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Old 01-21-2014, 08:29 AM   #64
Campbell
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Re: Banned from Aikido...

Quote:
Christopher Li wrote: View Post
That was a popular line at one time, but less so once more information came out, although some people still train that way. Morihei Ueshiba's Aikido, even in the later years, was quite aggressive and contained quite a bit of striking.

Since you've apparently decided on an ASU school - here's Saotome demonstrating a little of something like that:

http://youtu.be/MsZk7Eha1Us

Best,

Chris
Awesome ty
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Old 01-22-2014, 01:23 AM   #65
Alex Megann
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Re: Banned from Aikido...

Quote:
Christopher Li wrote: View Post
Since you've apparently decided on an ASU school - here's Saotome demonstrating a little of something like that:

http://youtu.be/MsZk7Eha1Us
Interesting clip - I enjoyed it, One thing that struck me is that, although Saotome Sensei has often been described as a student of Yamaguchi Sensei, he shows little sign of that, at least in this demonstration. He moves very differently from Yamaguchi, and his kamae and zanshin are also much more - let's say - obviously "martial". Do you know if he ever studied karate?

Alex
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Old 01-22-2014, 08:08 AM   #66
Chris Li
 
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Re: Banned from Aikido...

Quote:
Alex Megann wrote: View Post
Interesting clip - I enjoyed it, One thing that struck me is that, although Saotome Sensei has often been described as a student of Yamaguchi Sensei, he shows little sign of that, at least in this demonstration. He moves very differently from Yamaguchi, and his kamae and zanshin are also much more - let's say - obviously "martial". Do you know if he ever studied karate?

Alex
Not that I know of - or at least, not seriously.

Best,

Chris

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Old 01-22-2014, 11:00 AM   #67
john2054
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Re: Banned from Aikido...

Has anyone got any workable suggestions as how i can get back into this club?
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Old 01-22-2014, 11:15 AM   #68
Campbell
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Re: Banned from Aikido...

Quote:
John Robinson wrote: View Post
Has anyone got any workable suggestions as how i can get back into this club?
I don't know how anyone here would help you. I didn't read the entire thread but have you tried talking to the sensei to see what could be done?

Honestly he must have felt like he had good reason to remove you if he asked you to leave. It's a business for him as well so with you not there he's losing $$ also. So I don't know...maybe you could dabble in something else while you're away? A different Martial Art maybe?
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Old 01-22-2014, 11:30 AM   #69
john2054
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Re: Banned from Aikido...

Hi Brandon, I really can't see myself doing another martial art. Not to mention i've been banned from more than one other club around here? I may be able to return after a grace period, or failing that there IS another Aiki club in the city that i may be able to try. I guess I'll just have to wait for the time being....
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Old 01-22-2014, 11:51 AM   #70
Mary Eastland
 
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Re: Banned from Aikido...

Quote:
John Robinson wrote: View Post
Hi Brandon, I really can't see myself doing another martial art. Not to mention i've been banned from more than one other club around here? I may be able to return after a grace period, or failing that there IS another Aiki club in the city that i may be able to try. I guess I'll just have to wait for the time being....
Sounds like there is more to the story. How have you managed to get banned from more that one dojo?

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Old 01-22-2014, 01:12 PM   #71
lbb
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Re: Banned from Aikido...

Quote:
John Robinson wrote: View Post
Has anyone got any workable suggestions as how i can get back into this club?
There isn't enough data to answer that question, but here are a few questions that may help you formulate a plan of action:
  • Was there any discussion when you got banned, or had there been any discussion leading up to it?
  • Do you understand the reasons why you were banned? Do you agree with it?
  • If you were to go back, what would change in order for you to remain there -- the dojo's rules/expectations, or your behavior? How would this change happen, and are you okay with it?
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Old 01-22-2014, 01:21 PM   #72
Keith Larman
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Re: Banned from Aikido...

Well, there's an old joke that when everyone around you seems to be a jerk, maybe you need to consider the possibility that they aren't the jerk... But this is one of those "one side of the story", lots omitted, and lots of rather trollish type statements. So carry on...

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Old 01-22-2014, 01:24 PM   #73
Brian Gillaspie
 
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Re: Banned from Aikido...

Only you and your instructor truly know why you are banned. Your instructor is the only one who can give you a workable suggestion.
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Old 01-22-2014, 01:28 PM   #74
Campbell
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Re: Banned from Aikido...

Quote:
Keith Larman wrote: View Post
Well, there's an old joke that when everyone around you seems to be a jerk, maybe you need to consider the possibility that they aren't the jerk... But this is one of those "one side of the story", lots omitted, and lots of rather trollish type statements. So carry on...
That's what I was thinking...is he just jacking with everyone or what?
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Old 01-22-2014, 01:39 PM   #75
Demetrio Cereijo
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Re: Banned from Aikido...

Quote:
Mary Eastland wrote: View Post
Sounds like there is more to the story. How have you managed to get banned from more that one dojo?
Maybe this post can give some light about the issue.

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