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Old 01-01-2014, 05:59 AM   #51
aiki-jujutsuka
 
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Re: Empty Space, Soo and the The Word

Quote:
Mary Malmros wrote: View Post
As has been said many times already in this thread, anything "can be interpreted very differently" by someone who is unwilling to question his premise because of his belief that it comes from a book written by God. And if your mother had wheels instead of legs, she'd be a bicycle. This is a pointless exercise in repeated nonsense and I'm done with it.
Forgive me but I don't think this is the first time you've said you're done with this thread. No one is forcing you to contribute, I said I was happy to discuss this with anyone who was interested. If you would like to stay and discuss your viewpoints you are more than welcome to.

We all have fundamental positions - let's not pretend I'm the only one. Take Richard Dawkins for example, he is fundamentally committed to evolution and methodological naturalism. He is unwilling to question his premise based on his belief that evolution is true science. Now I don't know you personally to know your own position, but considering your hostility towards religious positions, I would hazard a guess that you are either an atheist or agnostic?

Happy New Year everyone, I hope it was a good one!
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Old 01-01-2014, 06:12 AM   #52
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Re: Origins

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Mary Eastland wrote: View Post
That being said, the "bible" was written by humans.
Yes this is true, however, the authors were inspired by the Holy Spirit as they wrote it. There are several ways we can judge the Bible's accuracy - external sources such as Josephus and Tacitus affirming the historical existence of Jesus, archeology proving the reliability of Old and New Testament places and people, the fact that New Testament was compiled and written during the era of the apostles to guarantee authenticity, prophecy, the phenomenon of the early church, and the scientific evidence that points to a global flood.
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Old 01-01-2014, 07:19 AM   #53
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Re: Old Testament Creationism

I think human inspiration can come from divine sources however once it is written it is no longer in the present which leads to interpretation and distortion.

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Old 01-01-2014, 08:15 AM   #54
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Re: Empty Space, Soo and the The Word

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Ewen Ebsworth wrote: View Post
We all have fundamental positions ...
Having a fundament and having fundamental positions is fundamentally different from what is meant with "religious fundamenlism".

Last edited by Carsten Möllering : 01-01-2014 at 08:29 AM.
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Old 01-01-2014, 12:43 PM   #55
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Re: Empty Space, Soo and the The Word

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Carsten Möllering wrote: View Post
So, second, fundamentalism reasoning is allways structured in a way so that whatever argument you give will confirm the fundamentalist positionl.There is simply no way to put a fundamentalist position into question. Because putting it in question means, that you are "outside", which means, that you are "wrong".

You will neverever "win" a debate or convince someone by the contents of your arguments. You simply can't.
Thanks, Carsten -- I think that's the most succinct description of fundamentalist reasoning I've ever read.

My sister (who is a nun) once said to me, "You know, Mary, some people read the newspaper with more intelligence than they use to read the Bible. When you read the newspaper, do you consider the comic page the same as the front-page news? Do you read the sports page the same as the op-ed page?" She's a deeply committed Christian, my sis -- and very, very far from being a fundamentalist.
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Old 01-01-2014, 12:56 PM   #56
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Re: Origins

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Ewen Ebsworth wrote: View Post
People sadly are not perfect and are fallible - human error etc. Scientists are no exceptions. There is much evidence that the Bible is historically accurate.
I agree there are historical accuracies within the Bible, but that is different than saying it's all accurate. The Adventures of D'Artagnan are pretty historically accurate, but that isn't to say they're entirely right. Here's to knowing the truth when we see it and the humility to keep our eyes open.
Happy new Year!

Gambarimashyo!
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Old 01-01-2014, 02:02 PM   #57
Demetrio Cereijo
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Re: Empty Space, Soo and the The Word

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Ewen Ebsworth wrote: View Post
How do you define scientific knowledge?
The one obtained following the scientific method.

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Have you any proof of alien life or is it just conjecture?
Is not an unreasonable hypothesis.

Quote:
So intelligible laws were created with the universe?
They came with it.

Quote:
How was the universe created?
No one knows for sure.

Quote:
If laws exist they point to a law maker.
Not really.

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We see this in every human society - where there is law there are law givers. It points to intelligence.
Human law givers and 'intelligence' in the same phrase... oh my.

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Old 01-01-2014, 08:01 PM   #58
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Re: Empty Space, Soo and the The Word

Quote:
Ewen Ebsworth wrote:
So intelligible laws were created with the universe?
Not really. Physical laws were in no way created. They are patterns in the fabric of the universe that are discover-able. The universe and the laws that describe its behavior are one, even though they are often spoken about separately.

Quote:
Ewen Ebsworth wrote:
If laws exist they point to a law maker.
Physical laws exist because the universe exists and exhibits predictable behavior. A law maker isn't required.

Ron

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Old 01-01-2014, 08:36 PM   #59
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Re: Old Testament Creationism

"Imagine that you are creating a fabric of human destiny with the object of making men happy in the end... but that it was essential and inevitable to torture to death only one tiny creature ... And to found that edifice on its unavenged tears: would you consent to be the architect on those conditions? Tell me, and tell me the truth!"
- Fyodor Dostoevsky, The Brothers Karamazov

The watchmaker...

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Old 01-02-2014, 05:03 AM   #60
aiki-jujutsuka
 
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Re: Empty Space, Soo and the The Word

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Ron Ragusa wrote: View Post
Not really. Physical laws were in no way created. They are patterns in the fabric of the universe that are discover-able. The universe and the laws that describe its behavior are one, even though they are often spoken about separately.

Physical laws exist because the universe exists and exhibits predictable behavior. A law maker isn't required.

Ron
So how do we go from nothing to something? The physical laws of the universe have no causal effect - you have conceded that yourself, so where did the universe come from? Everything that has a beginning needs a creator.
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Old 01-02-2014, 05:19 AM   #61
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Re: Empty Space, Soo and the The Word

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Demetrio Cereijo wrote: View Post
The one obtained following the scientific method.

Is not an unreasonable hypothesis.

They came with it.

No one knows for sure.

Not really.

Human law givers and 'intelligence' in the same phrase... oh my.
Demetrio, I think we are past disputing the point of the OP so why don't we, in a spirit of friendly discussion discuss our different world-views?

So far you have acknowledged that the "scientific method" (which I take to mean methodological naturalism as you have described it) can neither explain where the universe came from or how life first came into existence here on earth and that evolution is still only a theory. You have postulated that aliens seeding life is not an unreasonable hypothesis despite lack of evidence in extraterrestrial life.

My belief based on the Bible explains how the universe was created and how life began here on earth - that they were the result of God, who created purposefully - humanity is made in His image and is assigned the responsibility of steward over God's creation. As God is omnipotent He chose to create not over billions of years but over a matter of days.

Now I acknowledge that this requires faith to believe, I have never denied that; however I do believe it is reasonable given the evidence.
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Old 01-02-2014, 07:53 AM   #62
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Re: Empty Space, Soo and the The Word

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Ewen Ebsworth wrote: View Post
...evolution is still only a theory.
Creationists use the word "theory" as though it's equitable to mere guesswork and thus try to diminish theorizing as a legitimate tool for research. Fair enough. But then why, pray tell, are creation "scientists" working so hard to raise their creation myth to the level of a legitimate scientific theory?

Ron

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Old 01-02-2014, 08:04 AM   #63
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Re: Empty Space, Soo and the The Word

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Ewen Ebsworth wrote: View Post
So how do we go from nothing to something?
There is a lot of theoretical research going on to show how that is possible, some of it quite promising.

Quote:
Ewen Ebsworth wrote: View Post
The physical laws of the universe have no causal effect - you have conceded that yourself, so where did the universe come from?
That is on of the unanswered questions of physics. But because it's unanswered doesn't mean that it can't be answered.

Quote:
Ewen Ebsworth wrote: View Post
Everything that has a beginning needs a creator.
Everything that has a beginning needs to have begun. That doesn't imply the necessity of an intelligent creator ( i.e. God). The mechanism that sparked the creation of the universe has not yet been discovered, eventually it will be.

Ron

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Old 01-02-2014, 08:29 AM   #64
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Re: Empty Space, Soo and the The Word

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Ewen Ebsworth wrote: View Post
Demetrio, I think we are past disputing the point of the OP so why don't we, in a spirit of friendly discussion discuss our different world-views?
Why not.

Quote:
So far you have acknowledged that the "scientific method" (which I take to mean methodological naturalism as you have described it) can neither explain where the universe came from or how life first came into existence here on earth
I have not acknowledged that. 'has not' is not the same as 'can not'

Quote:
and that evolution is still only a theory.
Seems you still need a dictionary.

Quote:
You have postulated that aliens seeding life is not an unreasonable hypothesis despite lack of evidence in extraterrestrial life.
Lack of evidence is what makes it an hypothesis.

Quote:
My belief based on the Bible explains how the universe was created and how life began here on earth - that they were the result of God, who created purposefully - humanity is made in His image and is assigned the responsibility of steward over God's creation. As God is omnipotent He chose to create not over billions of years but over a matter of days.
And, of course, you are free* to believe that.

Quote:
Now I acknowledge that this requires faith to believe, I have never denied that; however I do believe it is reasonable given the evidence.
IMO, who looks for evidence has a feeble faith.

*for the sake of debate, I'll concede free will exists

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Old 01-02-2014, 05:22 PM   #65
Tore Eriksson
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Re: Empty Space, Soo and the The Word

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Ewen Ebsworth wrote: View Post
But it is not just collagen it is also DNA, which cannot have survived tens of millions of years;
You got my interest piqued. I have not seen any evidence of DNA extracted from dinosaurs, and this is a field I try to follow. Do you have a reference?

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Ewen Ebsworth wrote: View Post
As for T-Rexs evolving into birds, mutation does not add the type of information necessary to create entirely new species.
Birds are baby dinosaurs:
Birds have paedomorphic dinosaur skulls
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Old 01-03-2014, 02:05 AM   #66
aiki-jujutsuka
 
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Re: Empty Space, Soo and the The Word

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Ron Ragusa wrote: View Post
There is a lot of theoretical research going on to show how that is possible, some of it quite promising.

That is on of the unanswered questions of physics. But because it's unanswered doesn't mean that it can't be answered.

Everything that has a beginning needs to have begun. That doesn't imply the necessity of an intelligent creator ( i.e. God). The mechanism that sparked the creation of the universe has not yet been discovered, eventually it will be.

Ron
Forgive me but this strikes me as a "science-of-the-gap" argument - rather than question the paradigm you choose to place your trust i.e. faith that one day methodological naturalism will be able to explain it.

The beginning of the universe implies a Creator because the cause of the universe must be immaterial - an infinite regression of material causes is a logical impossibility.
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Old 01-03-2014, 02:08 AM   #67
aiki-jujutsuka
 
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Re: Empty Space, Soo and the The Word

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Demetrio Cereijo wrote: View Post
Why not.

I have not acknowledged that. 'has not' is not the same as 'can not'

Seems you still need a dictionary.

Lack of evidence is what makes it an hypothesis.

And, of course, you are free* to believe that.

IMO, who looks for evidence has a feeble faith.

*for the sake of debate, I'll concede free will exists
Interesting - if science made a pronouncement about life and the universe would you not ask for the evidence? Anything that makes truth statements requires evidence - "blind faith" is a popular definition of religious faith by the new atheists but it is not the Biblical definition. Christianity is based upon the resurrection of Jesus: no resurrection, no Christianity.
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Old 01-03-2014, 02:18 AM   #68
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Re: Empty Space, Soo and the The Word

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Tore Eriksson wrote: View Post
You got my interest piqued. I have not seen any evidence of DNA extracted from dinosaurs, and this is a field I try to follow. Do you have a reference?

Birds are baby dinosaurs:
Birds have paedomorphic dinosaur skulls
Yes, http://creation.com/double-decade-dinosaur-disquiet
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Old 01-03-2014, 02:21 AM   #69
aiki-jujutsuka
 
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Re: Empty Space, Soo and the The Word

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Ron Ragusa wrote: View Post
Creationists use the word "theory" as though it's equitable to mere guesswork and thus try to diminish theorizing as a legitimate tool for research. Fair enough. But then why, pray tell, are creation "scientists" working so hard to raise their creation myth to the level of a legitimate scientific theory?

Ron
It`s not about raising a creation myth to the level of a legitimate scientific theory, rather it is examining the world from a Biblical perspective. Genesis speaks of a young earth and a global flood. So we should be able to find evidence for this if Genesis is true. That is the approach.
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Old 01-03-2014, 06:45 AM   #70
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Re: Old Testament Creationism

Just a small point, what we know from pure science is that in science there is always a first cause for everything. My thoughts are that its reasonable that this includes the creation process also.

Another observation that I have on the whole creation debate is this, many creationists appear to be very dedicated to their views until the last day is discussed where God then rested and it is written that He consecrated the Sabbath day to all of creation for all of time. Yet many of those that argue for creation seem to have no interest in the Sabbath rest part of creation?

I am not a Seventh Day Adventist, but it would seem to me that of all the denominations that believe in creation, they are one of the few that seem to actually follow it fully?
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Old 01-03-2014, 06:47 AM   #71
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Re: Empty Space, Soo and the The Word

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Ewen Ebsworth wrote: View Post
Forgive me but this strikes me as a "science-of-the-gap" argument - rather than question the paradigm you choose to place your trust i.e. faith that one day methodological naturalism will be able to explain it.
Progress in science is a series of steps toward ever finer approximations of the natural world. Scientific theories make predictions which can then be tested and verified or rejected. The Bible does none of these things. Looking for correlations between selections of scripture and bits and pieces the natural world amounts to pretty much the same thing as what the ancient astronaut crowd does. In the end it amounts to nothing substantive and adds nothing to our understanding of the universe we are part of. There will always be gaps in scientific knowledge; science provides answers but it also opens up new areas of exploration because it raises questions.

Quote:
Ewen Ebsworth wrote: View Post
The beginning of the universe implies a Creator because the cause of the universe must be immaterial - an infinite regression of material causes is a logical impossibility.
Who said anything about an "infinite regression of material causes"? The only thing the beginning of the universe logically implies is that the universe began. It says nothing about how it began.

Ron

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Old 01-03-2014, 07:12 AM   #72
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Re: Empty Space, Soo and the The Word

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Ewen Ebsworth wrote: View Post
Interesting - if science made a pronouncement about life and the universe would you not ask for the evidence?
I would ask for evidence for scientific statements need to be based on evidence.

Quote:
Anything that makes truth statements requires evidence
Or belief.

Quote:
- "blind faith" is a popular definition of religious faith by the new atheists but it is not the Biblical definition.
Who is talking about "blind faith"? I was talking about 'motiva credibilitatis' which is different from scientific evidence. So, IMO, the ones for who the miracles of Christ and the saints, prophecies, the Church's growth and holiness, and her fruitfulness and stability are not sufficient signs of divine Revelation and look into science (or what is worse) pseudoscience are not real believers.

Quote:
Christianity is based upon the resurrection of Jesus: no resurrection, no Christianity.
And?

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Old 01-03-2014, 02:21 PM   #73
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Re: Empty Space, Soo and the The Word

Quote:
Ewen Ebsworth wrote: View Post
http://www.smithsonianmag.com/scienc.../dinosaur.html
Quote:
Meanwhile, Schweitzer’s research has been hijacked by “young earth” creationists, who insist that dinosaur soft tissue couldn’t possibly survive millions of years. They claim her discoveries support their belief, based on their interpretation of Genesis, that the earth is only a few thousand years old. Of course, it’s not unusual for a paleontologist to differ with creationists. But when creationists misrepresent Schweitzer’s data, she takes it personally: she describes herself as “a complete and total Christian.” On a shelf in her office is a plaque bearing an Old Testament verse: “For I know the plans I have for you,” declares the Lord, “plans to prosper you and not to harm you, plans to give you hope and a future.”
Quote:
Creation magazine claimed that Schweitzer’s research was “powerful testimony against the whole idea of dinosaurs living millions of years ago. It speaks volumes for the Bible’s account of a recent creation.”

This drives Schweitzer crazy. Geologists have established that the Hell Creek Formation, where B. rex was found, is 68 million years old, and so are the bones buried in it. She’s horrified that some Christians accuse her of hiding the true meaning of her data. “They treat you really bad,” she says. “They twist your words and they manipulate your data.” For her, science and religion represent two different ways of looking at the world; invoking the hand of God to explain natural phenomena breaks the rules of science. After all, she says, what God asks is faith, not evidence. “If you have all this evidence and proof positive that God exists, you don’t need faith. I think he kind of designed it so that we’d never be able to prove his existence. And I think that’s really cool.”
Ultimate truth is rather beyond people to grasp. Who knows who is more right about what? Hopefully time will tell.

Last edited by mathewjgano : 01-03-2014 at 02:29 PM.

Gambarimashyo!
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Old 01-03-2014, 03:37 PM   #74
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Re: Empty Space, Soo and the The Word

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Ewen Ebsworth wrote: View Post
Christianity is based upon the resurrection of Jesus: no resurrection, no Christianity.


It is based on the report of the ressurection of Jesus.
No resurrection? Never mind.
No decision to trust in the testimony: No christianity.

I think this crucial role of confidence is not a bug, it's a feature.
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Old 01-03-2014, 06:35 PM   #75
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Re: Empty Space, Soo and the The Word

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Ron Ragusa wrote: View Post
Progress in science is a series of steps toward ever finer approximations of the natural world. Scientific theories make predictions which can then be tested and verified or rejected. The Bible does none of these things. Looking for correlations between selections of scripture and bits and pieces the natural world amounts to pretty much the same thing as what the ancient astronaut crowd does. In the end it amounts to nothing substantive and adds nothing to our understanding of the universe we are part of. There will always be gaps in scientific knowledge; science provides answers but it also opens up new areas of exploration because it raises questions.

Ron
As long as the questions are vetted by methodological naturalism? I am not convinced science is as open as you think it is. I think there are many scientists who are driven by an anti-religion/God agenda.

This documentary highlights the bias in academia and the censorship within the scientific community of any research or teaching that could be construed as giving credence to ID or Creationism.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V5EPymcWp-g

It is over an hour long but well worth making the time to watch.
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