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Old 12-30-2013, 09:19 AM   #26
allowedcloud
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Re: YouTube: 1984 NY Aikikai 20th anniv demo Chiba-sensei

Quote:
Karl Arant wrote: View Post
I was wondering how long it would take for the apologists to appear. LOL!!!! You only want 50% of that skill level? That's sad. Why not strive for 150%? All students should seek to surpass their teachers, not simply measure up. After all, 50% of ok is just "o".
I'm not perfect, but I'm also not a "world renown teacher" traveling around tooting my own horn and charging people money for my services. Professionals in any industry, are and should always be held to a much higher standard than amateurs and students. The fact that people are obviously videotaping it should have made him even more focused, not less.
When is the last time you saw Itzhak Perlman, Andres Segovia, or Yo-yo Ma drop their instrument/bow during a performance? NEVER, never, never, not ever....NEVER!!! and they aren't even simulating a life and death struggle. When lives are on the line, don't you think the standards should be even higher than the performance of a simple, harmless piece of music? I should hope so. Oh and trust me, if you were to ever see it happen, they would excuse them self from the stage, if not the entire profession, on their own. They certainly wouldn't pretend like nothing happened, scowl at their partners, or try to blame the others on stage like Chiba san.
Aikido will never grow, or be fully respected as an art if all we do is worship rank, praise poor technique, and make excuses for teachers who obviously long past their prime. One can either perform up to the task, or they cannot. Clearly Chiba san cannot, which is fine, but then stop charing money for your "skills". Heck, I can teach you to use a bokken as well as he did in the vid for free.

Step 1: grab bokken (correctly ,or not. He doesn't seem to care, so why should you!)( e.g :18 mark), Step 2: loose focus, Step 3: get bested by your student, Step 4: pretend like it didn't happen, Step 5: scowl at uke and strut around like a petulant child/bully. Repeat until perfection is achieved. LOL!!!!

Are you still happy with 50%?

See it's not that hard at all
I'm reminded of a quote from Saotome sensei (paraphrasing): "Give a Tokyo taxi driver a plane ticket to America, put a bokken in his hand, and you have an instant sword expert"
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Old 12-30-2013, 09:49 AM   #27
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Re: YouTube: 1984 NY Aikikai 20th anniv demo Chiba-sensei

I suppose it goes both ways. You could give an American a ticket to Tokyo and he'd be considered a "gun expert". Come to think of it, imagine a firearms instructor, or even a grunt Marine, who dropped his weapon, spun around and inadvertently pointed it at their students whilst simultaneously failing to acknowledge their mistake, and finally accepting money for his "skills". Now that takes chutzpah!
After all, a bokken, should be thought of as no less deadly a weapon than a pistol, or rifle. Shoot (sorry, I couldn't resist the pun:/) , when's the last time you heard Yo-Yo Ma so much as play a bad note, much less drop his instrument/bow mid performance and that's not even a matter of life and death. Surely we shouldn't lower the standards when the consequences are higher?
If people are going to travel around the world teaching others how to wield deadly weapons, fine, but they better dang sure know what they're doing, or acknowledge their limitations and step away. Failure to do so will not only result in diminishing the art through the formation of bad habits, but it could ultimately lead to a student being seriously injured, or killed.
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Old 12-30-2013, 04:58 PM   #28
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Re: YouTube: 1984 NY Aikikai 20th anniv demo Chiba-sensei

Quote:
Karl Arant wrote: View Post
I was wondering how long it would take for the apologists to appear. LOL!!!! You only want 50% of that skill level? That's sad. Why not strive for 150%? All students should seek to surpass their teachers, not simply measure up. After all, 50% of ok is just "o".
I'm not perfect, but I'm also not a "world renown teacher" traveling around tooting my own horn and charging people money for my services. Professionals in any industry, are and should always be held to a much higher standard than amateurs and students. The fact that people are obviously videotaping it should have made him even more focused, not less.
When is the last time you saw Itzhak Perlman, Andres Segovia, or Yo-yo Ma drop their instrument/bow during a performance? NEVER, never, never, not ever....NEVER!!! and they aren't even simulating a life and death struggle. When lives are on the line, don't you think the standards should be even higher than the performance of a simple, harmless piece of music? I should hope so. Oh and trust me, if you were to ever see it happen, they would excuse them self from the stage, if not the entire profession, on their own. They certainly wouldn't pretend like nothing happened, scowl at their partners, or try to blame the others on stage like Chiba san.
Aikido will never grow, or be fully respected as an art if all we do is worship rank, praise poor technique, and make excuses for teachers who obviously long past their prime. One can either perform up to the task, or they cannot. Clearly Chiba san cannot, which is fine, but then stop charing money for your "skills". Heck, I can teach you to use a bokken as well as he did in the vid for free.

Step 1: grab bokken (correctly ,or not. He doesn't seem to care, so why should you!)( e.g :18 mark), Step 2: loose focus, Step 3: get bested by your student, Step 4: pretend like it didn't happen, Step 5: scowl at uke and strut around like a petulant child/bully. Repeat until perfection is achieved. LOL!!!!

Are you still happy with 50%?

See it's not that hard at all
Dear Karl,
i find you comments somewhat insulting and a tad vitriolic. Rather than continue this debate?? I bid you adieu.I would be grateful if you do not respond to this messge.
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Old 12-30-2013, 05:21 PM   #29
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Re: YouTube: 1984 NY Aikikai 20th anniv demo Chiba-sensei

While Perlman may have never dropped his bow, I suspect nobody ever tried to hit is out of his hand with a bokken (really poor analogy). I am relatively sure he has played the wrong note on more than one occasion or even spaced out while playing and screwed up the tempo etc. How you recover from the mistake is what counts because you are going to make them, pretty sure O Sensei made few.

Many of the videos out there have high level guys taking a really long time to make some fancy throw. To me it often looks like oops that one is going to suck move on, keep uke moving and do what comes next. The invincibility of the shihans is always questionable because on any given day some guy with fast hands gets lucky and lands the punch that knocks him out; top assume anything else is a supreme act of hubris.

That having been said, I have witnessed Chiba being a bit of an {fill in your preferred description here} myself. And the story in one of the "similar threads" links talking about Chiba breaking the arm of a knife fighter he was working out with is appalling. The guys seems unnecessarily rough on his ukes and has a personal style of muscling things a bit much from my taste. But is seems to have worked for him, at least he is not throwing uke with his mind.
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Old 12-30-2013, 05:24 PM   #30
Cady Goldfield
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Re: YouTube: 1984 NY Aikikai 20th anniv demo Chiba-sensei

Are there any videos of Chiba that were made in the past year or two? A Google search didn't turn anything up for me, but that doesn't mean they're not out there. I'd be more interested in watching them than these old clips.

Edit: The first one in this series looks like it's from 2010. Compare and contrast this to the old videos. It looks like there are some interesting changes.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rpq42...A220BBCC1AC4DE

(sorry - couldn't find an icon for embedding video...)

Last edited by Cady Goldfield : 12-30-2013 at 05:35 PM.
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Old 12-30-2013, 05:54 PM   #31
Peter Goldsbury
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Re: YouTube: 1984 NY Aikikai 20th anniv demo Chiba-sensei

When I was younger, I took ukemi for Chiba Sensei and there was always the feeling that you were never quite sure what was going to happen. However, I was recommended to train in the Hombu classes of Arikawa Sadateru Sensei, one of Chiba S's early instructors, and I had a similar feeling then.

I did not learn the kumitachi being demonstrated from Chiba S, but from Saito Morihiro Sensei and from Chiba's successor in the UK, Minoru Kanestuka Shihan. Kumitachi 5 is more complex than the others and there is scope for the ma-ai to become quite close. However, I did not sense a marked change of attitude after Chiba S dropped his bokken. Clearly, it was something that should not have happened in a demonstration, but Chiba himself would know that such things can happen. He once hit Morihei Ueshiba himself on the head with his bokken during a demonstration and everybody was waiting for the blood to flow and the sparks to fly. But nothing happened, at least during the demonstration. Like Arikawa S, Chiba S always gave the impression of being out to bring his ukes close to death from the word go and he was regarded by his senior Hombu colleagues as being closest to embodying the samurai ideal expressed by Yamamoto Tsunetomo in the Hagakure.

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Old 12-30-2013, 05:56 PM   #32
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Re: YouTube: 1984 NY Aikikai 20th anniv demo Chiba-sensei

Maybe he was just having a bad day? Professionals in all fields are just people and people make mistakes. I'm not making an excuse for him but I'm also not going to write him off as not being good at aikido or having a horrible attitude because of some old video on the internet.
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Old 12-30-2013, 06:07 PM   #33
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Re: YouTube: 1984 NY Aikikai 20th anniv demo Chiba-sensei

I would suggest that the past is the past, and it is more interesting (to me, at least) to see how Chiba is practicing aikido now.
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Old 12-30-2013, 07:03 PM   #34
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Re: YouTube: 1984 NY Aikikai 20th anniv demo Chiba-sensei

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Cady Goldfield wrote: View Post
I would suggest that the past is the past, and it is more interesting (to me, at least) to see how Chiba is practicing aikido now.
Hello Cady,

Well, the thread deals with a video made nearly 30 years ago and for me, the video has some sentimental value.

Joe Curran can probably give more accurate information, but I understand from contacts in the USAF that Chiba Sensei is not in the best of health at present and has turned over the running of the dojo to his students. Presumably we will not see a similar video for the NY Aikikai's 50th anniversary, which I assume will be be next year.

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Old 12-30-2013, 07:34 PM   #35
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Re: YouTube: 1984 NY Aikikai 20th anniv demo Chiba-sensei

Peter,
Yes, there is something to be said for sentiment and sentimental reasons.
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Old 12-30-2013, 08:37 PM   #36
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Re: YouTube: 1984 NY Aikikai 20th anniv demo Chiba-sensei

Wow, my typing skills really deteriorate when I'm rushed. Sorry for the word salad above.

It is my understanding that Chiba Sensei has retired, twice at this point (apparently had to come back when his successor fell ill). I would not expect anyone to question his ability, or indeed his station in the history of the art. We may choose to embrace or eschew his approach to the art, but the man clearly has skills. I have some issues with his sense of restraint, then again I'm not really old school in that manner.
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Old 12-30-2013, 09:43 PM   #37
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Re: YouTube: 1984 NY Aikikai 20th anniv demo Chiba-sensei

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Peter A Goldsbury wrote: View Post
Chiba S always gave the impression of being out to bring his ukes close to death from the word go and he was regarded by his senior Hombu colleagues as being closest to embodying the samurai ideal expressed by Yamamoto Tsunetomo in the Hagakure.
Ahh. This makes a lot of sense.
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Old 12-30-2013, 10:36 PM   #38
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Re: YouTube: 1984 NY Aikikai 20th anniv demo Chiba-sensei

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Peter A Goldsbury wrote: View Post
I did not sense a marked change of attitude after Chiba S dropped his bokken.
Neither did I.

Quote:
Peter A Goldsbury wrote: View Post
Clearly, it was something that should not have happened in a demonstration
Ideally, he wouldn't have let that happen (grip too loose while changing kamae?), or maybe could have improvised a throw.
But after picking up the dropped weapon, he and uke continued like nothing had happened. THAT shows composure.

Warning: Do not bend, fold or otherwise abuse... until we get to the dojo..


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Old 12-31-2013, 01:36 AM   #39
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Re: YouTube: 1984 NY Aikikai 20th anniv demo Chiba-sensei

Quote:
Cady Goldfield wrote: View Post
Are there any videos of Chiba that were made in the past year or two? A Google search didn't turn anything up for me, but that doesn't mean they're not out there. I'd be more interested in watching them than these old clips.

Edit: The first one in this series looks like it's from 2010. Compare and contrast this to the old videos. It looks like there are some interesting changes.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rpq42...A220BBCC1AC4DE

(sorry - couldn't find an icon for embedding video...)
Dear Cady,
There must be something wrong with your Browser.Check out Birankai /Biran online.There a lots of clips dated after the video we are commenting on.I myself have loads of video material of Chiba Sensei .The vvideo of Chiba Sensei and Juba whiie interesting is not entirely representative of Chiba Sensei's skilll. Thats why I have suggested that others look for more vids , as you appear to be doing.
Cheers, Joe.
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Old 12-31-2013, 02:02 AM   #40
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Re: YouTube: 1984 NY Aikikai 20th anniv demo Chiba-sensei

Quote:
Cady Goldfield wrote: View Post
Are there any videos of Chiba that were made in the past year or two? A Google search didn't turn anything up for me, but that doesn't mean they're not out there. I'd be more interested in watching them than these old clips.

Edit: The first one in this series looks like it's from 2010. Compare and contrast this to the old videos. It looks like there are some interesting changes.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rpq42...A220BBCC1AC4DE

(sorry - couldn't find an icon for embedding video...)
Hi Cady,
It me again. You are quite correct when you state there are changes in the way Chiba Sensei trains and his approach to training.In the early days when I first met him[1970] Sensei was a force of nature , so much power and he had as Peter Goldsbury states a warrior spirit.
As time passed by Chiba Sensei has mellowed .He is currently inactive.Over the last few
years he has been transmitting his method of Aikido , in body art and weapons, concentrating his efforts on establishing sound Aikido principles to students , thus ensuring hopefully that the students have a good understanding of Aikido as and when or if they choose to be teachers in the future.On my own part I owe a huge debt of gratitude to Sensei for all that he has given me over the last 43 years. I am sure that many others feel exactly the same as I do. Rather than focus on a minute part of Chiba Sensei's aikido [the video with Juba ] one should review and look at the broader picture before making judgements about his work.Cheers, Joe
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Old 12-31-2013, 02:18 AM   #41
sakumeikan
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Re: YouTube: 1984 NY Aikikai 20th anniv demo Chiba-sensei

Quote:
Peter A Goldsbury wrote: View Post
When I was younger, I took ukemi for Chiba Sensei and there was always the feeling that you were never quite sure what was going to happen. However, I was recommended to train in the Hombu classes of Arikawa Sadateru Sensei, one of Chiba S's early instructors, and I had a similar feeling then.

I did not learn the kumitachi being demonstrated from Chiba S, but from Saito Morihiro Sensei and from Chiba's successor in the UK, Minoru Kanestuka Shihan. Kumitachi 5 is more complex than the others and there is scope for the ma-ai to become quite close. However, I did not sense a marked change of attitude after Chiba S dropped his bokken. Clearly, it was something that should not have happened in a demonstration, but Chiba himself would know that such things can happen. He once hit Morihei Ueshiba himself on the head with his bokken during a demonstration and everybody was waiting for the blood to flow and the sparks to fly. But nothing happened, at least during the demonstration. Like Arikawa S, Chiba S always gave the impression of being out to bring his ukes close to death from the word go and he was regarded by his senior Hombu colleagues as being closest to embodying the samurai ideal expressed by Yamamoto Tsunetomo in the Hagakure.
Dear Peter ,
The clip of Ny Aikikai is years old.While it is an interesting vid, one of my favorites , it does not show clearly the 5 Kumi tachi as well as I have seen the waza done in recent times by Chiba Sensei.In the NY vid, Chiba Sensei is very martial.Clearly this demo was not one where a rehearsal
was done.Both parties I feel were simply reacting to the situation at the time.Juba I feel coped really well.To many people it may well have looked a bit rough and ready but to me I feel that it embodies a spirited ,martial example, certainly not a sanitized demo which we often see today.
Hope you have a Happy New Year, Cheers, Joe.
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Old 12-31-2013, 02:35 AM   #42
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Re: YouTube: 1984 NY Aikikai 20th anniv demo Chiba-sensei

Quote:
Hilary Heinmets wrote: View Post
While Perlman may have never dropped his bow, I suspect nobody ever tried to hit is out of his hand with a bokken (really poor analogy). I am relatively sure he has played the wrong note on more than one occasion or even spaced out while playing and screwed up the tempo etc. How you recover from the mistake is what counts because you are going to make them, pretty sure O Sensei made few.

Many of the videos out there have high level guys taking a really long time to make some fancy throw. To me it often looks like oops that one is going to suck move on, keep uke moving and do what comes next. The invincibility of the shihans is always questionable because on any given day some guy with fast hands gets lucky and lands the punch that knocks him out; top assume anything else is a supreme act of hubris.

That having been said, I have witnessed Chiba being a bit of an {fill in your preferred description here} myself. And the story in one of the "similar threads" links talking about Chiba breaking the arm of a knife fighter he was working out with is appalling. The guys seems unnecessarily rough on his ukes and has a personal style of muscling things a bit much from my taste. But is seems to have worked for him, at least he is not throwing uke with his mind.
Dear Hilary,
While Chiba Sensei may not be everyones cup of tea, at least as you say he never throws ukes with mind power. As far as being rough is concerned ,I think this is all relative.I cannot recall any of his Ukes ever getting upset about Sensei's treatment of them. Chiba Sensei really takes his Uke to the limit but I have never known him to injure anybody. I think there are some Urban Myths knocking about concerning Chiba Sensei.Happy New Year, Joe.
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Old 12-31-2013, 09:07 AM   #43
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Re: YouTube: 1984 NY Aikikai 20th anniv demo Chiba-sensei

Hi Joe,
One of the annoying realities of the Internet, these days, is that the search engines and browsers don't always show individual users all of the options from a search. For some reason, I had to really dig to find very recent clips of Chiba. I finally wised up and did a search directly on YouTube. It turned up a number of accounts with lots of videos cached. Then I weeded through those to find what I was looking for.

Chiba seems to have changed on many levels, and for the better. Among other things, he can "do more, with less" in his techniques now; Instead of using hard force to power his techniques, he is going "softer" and getting better (yet less "overtly violent") results. You don't need to act hard to be martial. I see cues that he has gone outside of the constraints of his original Aikikai-method upbringing to explore aiki.

Last edited by Cady Goldfield : 12-31-2013 at 09:10 AM.
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Old 12-31-2013, 12:41 PM   #44
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Re: YouTube: 1984 NY Aikikai 20th anniv demo Chiba-sensei

Now this is how you do it. A true master of his craft and he doesn't miss a note

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bZSefNl2MpA
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Old 12-31-2013, 01:17 PM   #45
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Re: YouTube: 1984 NY Aikikai 20th anniv demo Chiba-sensei

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Karl Arant wrote: View Post
When's the last time you saw a marine drop his/her rifle? NEVER that's when, and I think they're under a wee bit more stress than Chiba san's rehearsed kata. I'm just sayin'.......
Well, it happens...just sayin...

Best,

Chris

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Old 12-31-2013, 01:19 PM   #46
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Re: YouTube: 1984 NY Aikikai 20th anniv demo Chiba-sensei

Hi folks,

As always, please be welcome in being passionate and even contrary in expressing your thoughts here on AikiWeb -- and, please be sure to do so respectfully without directing your posts at people themselves.

Thank you,

-- Jun

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Old 12-31-2013, 04:32 PM   #47
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Re: YouTube: 1984 NY Aikikai 20th anniv demo Chiba-sensei

i liked this video better http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PwxBlFu-pbo . in the first video, distance was way too far, not much in way of control the center line, and uke's attack posture was over committed. this video is in his later year, shown a better maai and center line control. uke's attack posture is better, but uke still bleed his power out of his back foot. don't care much for the extra flip of uke's bokken, but that's just me. i like this video for the less is more approach.

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Old 01-01-2014, 08:21 AM   #48
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Re: YouTube: 1984 NY Aikikai 20th anniv demo Chiba-sensei

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Phi Truong wrote: View Post
i liked this video better http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PwxBlFu-pbo . in the first video, distance was way too far, not much in way of control the center line, and uke's attack posture was over committed. this video is in his later year, shown a better maai and center line control. uke's attack posture is better, but uke still bleed his power out of his back foot. don't care much for the extra flip of uke's bokken, but that's just me. i like this video for the less is more approach.
Hello Phi,
Happy New Year!! The video you use herein is one whereby Chiba Sensei is teaching the kumi tachi movements showing the actions/reactions to each others moves.ie the responses to whay is taking place. The tempo shown here is much slower.Care is taken to emphasis the moves.Not too sure what you mean by your last two comments regarding Robert Savoca Sensei , Chiba Sensei's Uke.
Watched closely Robert's footwork, maybe I missed something but I diid not see any loss of power.In fact the vid was not about generating power , more about response, timing , maai and control of centre. Must watch again to check regarding flip of bokken by Mr Savoca.Cheers, Joe.
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Old 01-03-2014, 10:14 AM   #49
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Re: YouTube: 1984 NY Aikikai 20th anniv demo Chiba-sensei

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Hello Phi,
Happy New Year!! The video you use herein is one whereby Chiba Sensei is teaching the kumi tachi movements showing the actions/reactions to each others moves.ie the responses to whay is taking place. The tempo shown here is much slower.Care is taken to emphasis the moves.Not too sure what you mean by your last two comments regarding Robert Savoca Sensei , Chiba Sensei's Uke.
Watched closely Robert's footwork, maybe I missed something but I diid not see any loss of power.In fact the vid was not about generating power , more about response, timing , maai and control of centre. Must watch again to check regarding flip of bokken by Mr Savoca.Cheers, Joe.
Hello Joe,
Happy New Year to you and yours! Regarding the video, the power bleeding is from Mr Savoca. a couple of times, as he made the cuts, his back leg swing around like a counter balance of sort. to me, the power came from the back leg, and if it swing like that, meant it bleed the power in the opposite direction of the cut. if it was an empty hand strike, the power generated from the back leg, and if it swing, then a loss of power.

the flipping of bokken came from Chiba sensei. after the deflection, he flipped Mr Savoca's bokken further away. from my point of view, which doesn't mean that much, is unnecessary. it created a two beat move: 1 - deflect and flip, 2 - come back to the center line for attack. now if you can deflect and come back into the center line for an attack, that would make a 1-beat move. we called this a spiral deflection. a 1-beat move almost always beats out a 2-beat move. plus, if someone flipped my bokken like that, i would use the momentum to cut upward toward the center line and take out the wrist or arm from underneath. Then again, it might be a required kata move.

then again, i might miss something there based on my inexperience with the subject.

"budo is putting on cold, wet, sweat stained gi with a smile and a snarl" - your truly
http://charlotteaikikai.org
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Old 01-03-2014, 11:25 AM   #50
Gary Small
Dojo: Aikido of Maine
Location: Portland Maine
Join Date: Jun 2010
Posts: 2
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Re: YouTube: 1984 NY Aikikai 20th anniv demo Chiba-sensei

I think its a very honest and intense embu! and I like seeing Chiba sensei in his prime. Chiba sensei keeps sente and why not! Nice find!
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