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Old 12-28-2013, 01:49 PM   #26
mathewjgano
 
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Re: Empty Space, Soo and the The Word

Quote:
Matthew Gano wrote: View Post
How do you rationalize the application of radiometric dating?
Oops, should read as, "...of other radiometric dating?" (apart from carbon)

Gambarimashyo!
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Old 12-28-2013, 08:37 PM   #27
Aikibu
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Re: Old Testament Creationism

I posted this on my Facebook page a couple weeks back. Enjoy.

http://www.thedailybeast.com/article...eationism.html

WIlliam Hazen
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Old 12-29-2013, 04:53 AM   #28
Carsten Möllering
 
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Re: Empty Space, Soo and the The Word

Quote:
Ewen Ebsworth wrote: View Post
...why you have chosen this particular interpretation.
Many years of academical scholarship and studies.
Many years of trying to live a spirituality orientated life.
Many years of learning, living, and teaching.

It is my opinion and experience, that fundamentalism is just a way to simplify the life we live, the world we live in and the god who gift's our - and everybodies - live. It is a way to better get along. - But a superficial one, a manmade one.

Life - and spirituality - is much more complicated after giving up fundamentalism. But it becomes deeper, more natural, closer to god - and closer to the world and the people who share our life. It is really impressive to let go protection measures.

Well, you asked me: "Why?" This is just my - very short - answer. Just my way and experience. It's not meant to "proselyte" you or to argue. It's just me.

Last edited by akiy : 12-29-2013 at 11:35 AM. Reason: Fixed quote tag
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Old 12-29-2013, 03:49 PM   #29
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Re: Empty Space, Soo and the The Word

Quote:
Carsten Möllering wrote: View Post
It is my opinion and experience, that fundamentalism is just a way to simplify the life we live, the world we live in and the god who gift's our - and everybodies - live. It is a way to better get along. - But a superficial one, a manmade one.
I think it is more a political stance than a spiritual/religious one.

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Old 12-29-2013, 05:53 PM   #30
aiki-jujutsuka
 
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Re: Empty Space, Soo and the The Word

Quote:
Demetrio Cereijo wrote: View Post
Changing the goalposts?

Of course is a theory... do you need a dictionary?

Therefore aliens

Irrelevant. Ask to the question I made to you: Do you believe the Earth stopped on its tracks as told in Joshua 10, 12-14?

It is a hypothesis.
How have I changed the goalposts? You asked what believing the Bible to be the Word of God had to do with the development of the universe and the origins and evolution of life. I responded by saying Genesis 1 teaches that God created in six days as opposed to millions of years. Both Darwinian evolutionary theory and the Bible make claims about how life came to be. You then took exception to this statement saying evolution is not about bioepoesis. So how have I changed the goalposts?

I`m not sure whether you are being facetious with your aliens comment or not? But that does not solve the problem of how life began because it just pushes it back to another world and another planet.

No my question was not irrelevant. Can God stop the earth from rotating on its axis? Yes. But you deliberately asked a loaded question - if I say yes, you reject the reasons I give for doubting evolution and feel a sense of intellectual superiority because of your prejudice. So answer my question - where did the laws of physics come from in the first place?
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Old 12-29-2013, 06:00 PM   #31
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Re: Empty Space, Soo and the The Word

Quote:
Carsten Möllering wrote: View Post
Many years of academical scholarship and studies.
Many years of trying to live a spirituality orientated life.
Many years of learning, living, and teaching.

It is my opinion and experience, that fundamentalism is just a way to simplify the life we live, the world we live in and the god who gift's our - and everybodies - live. It is a way to better get along. - But a superficial one, a manmade one.

Life - and spirituality - is much more complicated after giving up fundamentalism. But it becomes deeper, more natural, closer to god - and closer to the world and the people who share our life. It is really impressive to let go protection measures.

Well, you asked me: "Why?" This is just my - very short - answer. Just my way and experience. It's not meant to "proselyte" you or to argue. It's just me.
Carsten thank you for explaining more your views on fundamentalism, may I ask then how you interpret other areas of Scripture, for example Christ`s resurrection?
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Old 12-29-2013, 06:12 PM   #32
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Re: Empty Space, Soo and the The Word

Quote:
Matthew Gano wrote: View Post
Oops, should read as, "...of other radiometric dating?" (apart from carbon)
That isotope decay rates are fairly constant since we began measuring them does not prove they were always at the same rate of decay. There have been examples such as Mt St. Helens in America and Mt. Ngauruhoe in New Zealand that both errupted during the 20th century but when the new rock was tested gave readings that were millions of years old due to excess radiogenic argon from the magma. Clearly then isotope readings are not infallible ways of measuring the age of the earth.
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Old 12-30-2013, 02:14 AM   #33
Lorien Lowe
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Re: Old Testament Creationism

Well, shoot.
I just spent an hour taking down these claims from a scientific perspective, complete with documentation, and my computer logged me out in the interim and deleted all of my work.
I don't have the energy to repeat it.
Suffice it to say, the OP has a problem not only with the biological theory of evolution, but with physics and plate tectonics, too.
a couple of sources from the top of my head:
talkorigins.org
http://ncse.com/evolution
Also, the wikipedia pages on horse evolution, whale evolution, and the cambrian explosion are worth visiting for the curious.

edit: isotope decay rates are, in fact, pretty constant; isotopic dating shows some errors, but not errors on the level of 'this rock is somewhere between 13 billion and 5 thousand years old.' Showing a few exceptions (like extrusive volcanic rocks) does not alter the reliability of radiometric dating.

Last edited by Lorien Lowe : 12-30-2013 at 02:17 AM.
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Old 12-30-2013, 04:25 AM   #34
Lorien Lowe
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Re: Old Testament Creationism

Worth reading for the faithful and the faithless alike:
http://discovermagazine.com/2006/apr...a#.UsExJ5Hnn8s
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Old 12-30-2013, 05:52 AM   #35
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Re: Old Testament Creationism

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Old 12-30-2013, 06:22 AM   #36
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Re: Empty Space, Soo and the The Word

Quote:
Ewen Ebsworth wrote: View Post
How have I changed the goalposts? You asked what believing the Bible to be the Word of God had to do with the development of the universe and the origins and evolution of life. I responded by saying Genesis 1 teaches that God created in six days as opposed to millions of years. Both Darwinian evolutionary theory and the Bible make claims about how life came to be. You then took exception to this statement saying evolution is not about bioepoesis. So how have I changed the goalposts?
'Origin of Species' is about the origin of species, not about the origins of life nor about what makes humans humans.

Quote:
I`m not sure whether you are being facetious with your aliens comment or not? But that does not solve the problem of how life began because it just pushes it back to another world and another planet.
You said something about consideration of alternative explanations is not unreasonable... therefore aliens is not unreasonable

Quote:
No my question was not irrelevant. Can God stop the earth from rotating on its axis? Yes
Did it?

Quote:
But you deliberately asked a loaded question - if I say yes, you reject the reasons I give for doubting evolution and feel a sense of intellectual superiority because of your prejudice.
How so?

You said 'I have no problem with the compatibility of scientific knowledge and religious belief'. I do not believe you.

Quote:
So answer my question - where did the laws of physics come from in the first place?
They came with the universe itself.

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Old 12-30-2013, 09:25 AM   #37
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Re: Old Testament Creationism

Quote:
Lorien Lowe wrote: View Post
Worth reading for the faithful and the faithless alike:
http://discovermagazine.com/2006/apr...a#.UsExJ5Hnn8s
And a nice follow up.

http://phys.org/news160320581.html#nRlv

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Old 12-30-2013, 01:31 PM   #38
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Re: Empty Space, Soo and the The Word

Quote:
Ewen Ebsworth wrote: View Post
Clearly then isotope readings are not infallible ways of measuring the age of the earth.
The straw man argument is used yet again to disprove a point that was never raised. No one has made the claim that radiometric dating (or any other scientific theory for that matter) is infallible.

Ron

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Old 12-30-2013, 06:51 PM   #39
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Re: Empty Space, Soo and the The Word

Quote:
Ron Ragusa wrote: View Post
The straw man argument is used yet again to disprove a point that was never raised. No one has made the claim that radiometric dating (or any other scientific theory for that matter) is infallible.

Ron
I`m sorry you see it as such, I used the word infallible because this whole discussion began by my questioning whether Genesis 1 was an "utterly and verifible false myth". I asked for evidence. I have not received any evidence that conclusively proves this. My point is that radioactive decay rates of isotopes are not conclusive proof of an old earth.
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Old 12-30-2013, 07:07 PM   #40
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Re: Empty Space, Soo and the The Word

Quote:
Demetrio Cereijo wrote: View Post
'Origin of Species' is about the origin of species, not about the origins of life nor about what makes humans humans.

You said something about consideration of alternative explanations is not unreasonable... therefore aliens is not unreasonable

Did it?

How so?

You said 'I have no problem with the compatibility of scientific knowledge and religious belief'. I do not believe you.

They came with the universe itself.
How do you define scientific knowledge?

Have you any proof of alien life or is it just conjecture?

So intelligible laws were created with the universe? How was the universe created? If laws exist they point to a law maker. We see this in every human society - where there is law there are law givers. It points to intelligence.
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Old 12-30-2013, 08:54 PM   #41
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Origins

Quote:
Ewen Ebsworth wrote: View Post
That isotope decay rates are fairly constant since we began measuring them does not prove they were always at the same rate of decay. There have been examples such as Mt St. Helens in America and Mt. Ngauruhoe in New Zealand that both errupted during the 20th century but when the new rock was tested gave readings that were millions of years old due to excess radiogenic argon from the magma. Clearly then isotope readings are not infallible ways of measuring the age of the earth.
For all we do know we still know very little and small distinctions can probably carry radical implications. That said, for me the current scientific lines of reason seem more probable than a history written thousands of years ago. I put a lot of stock in the intuitive powers of people and see a lot of value in ancient intuitions and traditions and practices, but I would be shocked to find out the Biblical history is literally and exactly true in this regard.

Gambarimashyo!
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Old 12-30-2013, 11:08 PM   #42
Lorien Lowe
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Re: Old Testament Creationism

Quote:
Keith Larman wrote: View Post
Beautiful!
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Old 12-30-2013, 11:11 PM   #43
Lorien Lowe
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Re: Empty Space, Soo and the The Word

Quote:
Ewen Ebsworth wrote: View Post
I`m sorry you see it as such, I used the word infallible because this whole discussion began by my questioning whether Genesis 1 was an "utterly and verifible false myth". I asked for evidence. I have not received any evidence that conclusively proves this. My point is that radioactive decay rates of isotopes are not conclusive proof of an old earth.
No one can prove a negative. We can't, as Russell noted, 'utterly and verifiably' prove that there is not a teapot in orbit around the sun in the asteroid belt.

What we can say, however, is that the data absolutely do not support that postulation.
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Old 12-31-2013, 12:55 AM   #44
aiki-jujutsuka
 
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Re: Empty Space, Soo and the The Word

Quote:
Lorien Lowe wrote: View Post
No one can prove a negative. We can't, as Russell noted, 'utterly and verifiably' prove that there is not a teapot in orbit around the sun in the asteroid belt.

What we can say, however, is that the data absolutely do not support that postulation.
Under the current evolutionary model and using methodological naturalism perhaps, but under alternative models such as the young earth creationist model the scientific data can be interpreted very differently. Methodological naturalism is biased against any supernatural causation and therefore limits the freedom of scientific inquiry.
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Old 12-31-2013, 12:57 AM   #45
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Re: Origins

Quote:
Matthew Gano wrote: View Post
For all we do know we still know very little and small distinctions can probably carry radical implications. That said, for me the current scientific lines of reason seem more probable than a history written thousands of years ago. I put a lot of stock in the intuitive powers of people and see a lot of value in ancient intuitions and traditions and practices, but I would be shocked to find out the Biblical history is literally and exactly true in this regard.
People sadly are not perfect and are fallible - human error etc. Scientists are no exceptions. There is much evidence that the Bible is historically accurate.
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Old 12-31-2013, 03:26 AM   #46
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Re: Origins

Quote:
Ewen Ebsworth wrote: View Post
There is much evidence that the Bible is historically accurate.
"The Bible"?

What Bible exactly ?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apocrypha

http://www.sacred-texts.com/chr/apo/

enjoy
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Old 12-31-2013, 05:39 AM   #47
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Re: Origins

Quote:
Ewen Ebsworth wrote: View Post
People sadly are not perfect and are fallible - human error etc. Scientists are no exceptions. There is much evidence that the Bible is historically accurate.
That being said, the "bible" was written by humans.

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Old 12-31-2013, 06:47 AM   #48
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Re: Empty Space, Soo and the The Word

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Demetrio Cereijo wrote: View Post
I think it is more a political stance than a spiritual/religious one.
I think in the first place fundamentalism is about psychology: About gaining a sustainable stability in a life* which is overcharging because of it's complexity. The political stance then is the shape of this on a sociological level.

* Which everyone of us actually needs to get along. It's only that our answer to this challenge are different, I think.

Quote:
Ewen Ebsworth wrote: View Post
... may I ask then how you interpret other areas of Scripture, for example Christ`s resurrection?
I am very thankfull to those who handed down their experiences*, so I can know of them and can share their experience in my life. That those experiences lived on and found their way from then and there to here and now is a wonder in itself.
What I do is not so much "interpreting" or "expaining" the texts, but more trying to "get in contact" with the texts and with the experience they transmit. This "getting in contact" has many different layers.

* To them:
Quote:
Mary Eastland wrote: View Post
That being said, the "bible" was written by humans.
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Old 12-31-2013, 09:26 AM   #49
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Re: Empty Space, Soo and the The Word

Quote:
Ewen Ebsworth wrote: View Post
Under the current evolutionary model and using methodological naturalism perhaps, but under alternative models such as the young earth creationist model the scientific data can be interpreted very differently.
As has been said many times already in this thread, anything "can be interpreted very differently" by someone who is unwilling to question his premise because of his belief that it comes from a book written by God. And if your mother had wheels instead of legs, she'd be a bicycle. This is a pointless exercise in repeated nonsense and I'm done with it.
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Old 01-01-2014, 04:32 AM   #50
Carsten Möllering
 
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Re: Empty Space, Soo and the The Word

Quote:
Mary Malmros wrote: View Post
This is a pointless exercise ...
The certain way to argue which fundamentalism uses, seems indeed pointless or even nonsens from "outside". It has to.

This is because this way of reasoning is different from the way we usually use in our life: It is never in the first way a discussion about the certain point we seem to discuss. But it is allways a meta-disussion about the base of our worldview and about how we originate the points we are making. While we usually have agreements about the premises which base our reasoning, fundamentalism does not share these premises. And, what's more, will watch out that there are no premesis that could be shared.

This certain structure of reasoning actually is a constituent element of fundmentalism.
First because you saying it to be a pointless exercise shows that you are "outside". This "outside" is needed by the fundamentalist worldview. It is this model of outside/inside or rigth/wrong which is the crucial element of every certain discussion. Whether it is actually about how the world came into being, mothers having wheels or about the weather is completely unimportant: Fundamentalism lives from the dualism itself. Not from the certain content of the contradiction.

So, second, fundamentalism reasoning is allways structured in a way so that whatever argument you give will confirm the fundamentalist positionl.There is simply no way to put a fundamentalist position into question. Because putting it in question means, that you are "outside", which means, that you are "wrong".

You will neverever "win" a debate or convince someone by the contents of your arguments. You simply can't.
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