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Old 12-21-2013, 03:23 PM   #51
Chris Li
 
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Re: Musings on a Hawaii IP Seminar

Posted some photos from the workshop - more photos still to come...

Best,

Chris

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Old 12-21-2013, 03:45 PM   #52
Demetrio Cereijo
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Re: Musings on a Hawaii IP Seminar

Thanks Chris. Very illustrative.

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Old 12-22-2013, 08:42 PM   #53
Chris Li
 
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Re: Musings on a Hawaii IP Seminar

Quote:
Christopher Li wrote: View Post
Posted some photos from the workshop - more photos still to come...
Courtesy of Mert Gambito - added a few more photos to the workshop gallery.

Best,

Chris

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Old 12-23-2013, 10:29 AM   #54
Bernd Lehnen
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Re: Musings on a Hawaii IP Seminar

Quote:
Christopher Li wrote: View Post
Courtesy of Mert Gambito - added a few more photos to the workshop gallery.

Best,

Chris
Thank you, Chris.
You're not a bunch of weaklings over there and I guess Dan has a lot of fun with you guys.
And then, don't forget, it's Hawaii.

The most interesting question for me now would be how you all over there have felt to the OP, the newbee, Mr. Scott Burke from Australia, who calls himself a longtime "Iwamaniac", and how he felt to you because you lucky people at wonderful Oahu now have at least two years of internal training below your belts….

I for one know from experience that "Iwamaniacs" tend to be quite strong aikidoka and he hasn't said a word about how you felt to him so far.

In other words, I 'd like to hear about your progress compared to the time before your first "D-day" .

Meyer Goo is my hero.

Best,
Bernd
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Old 12-23-2013, 07:43 PM   #55
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Re: Musings on a Hawaii IP Seminar

Quote:
Bernd Lehnen wrote: View Post
Thank you, Chris.
You're not a bunch of weaklings over there and I guess Dan has a lot of fun with you guys.
And then, don't forget, it's Hawaii.

The most interesting question for me now would be how you all over there have felt to the OP, the newbee, Mr. Scott Burke from Australia, who calls himself a longtime "Iwamaniac", and how he felt to you because you lucky people at wonderful Oahu now have at least two years of internal training below your belts….

I for one know from experience that "Iwamaniacs" tend to be quite strong aikidoka and he hasn't said a word about how you felt to him so far.

In other words, I 'd like to hear about your progress compared to the time before your first "D-day" .

Meyer Goo is my hero.

Best,
Bernd
Ah! Good question.

Well of course, they all suck. But boy they suck way better than I do! I had hands on with Chris and Mert the first night doing push tests. I started out with Mert, he's the kind of guy you'd hear described as a "delightful chap" in a Christmas novel. He was very stable in unstable positions against a push and was able to explain what he was doing when he was doing it. For example, he crossed one foot, ankle over the other so he was basically one footed, you could say that one foot was resting on top of the other. I gave a firm push and he remained stable. His arms were up and out to his sides during this. He was not touching me with his hands. Did a double take on that.

As for Christopher Li, well being the White Wizard and a Dark Lord of the Sith (wrong Christopher Lee!) he demonstrated a high degree of stability against pushes as well. On one push against Chris I actually skidded backwards (Note, I am 6 feet 5 1/2 inches tall, abt 250 pounds give or take) a little, though I'll admit the rain may have helped a little with that.

One constant with all of the Hawaii folks that I trained with was that there was no sense of "push back" during any of the stability tests, since the object of the exercise was to "split force". They all maintained a relaxed disposition against different pushes. This is an important point, one of the more difficult things for me to work through during the weekend was ignoring pressure at the point of contact, whether it be a grab or a push. This is harder than you'd think, especially at very slow speeds with constant pressure.

For the second day I had chances to work in with several other of the Oahu crew to similar effect. I'm shamefully terrible with names so I apologize to the good folks there. Except Henry. (Ho ho, hee hee) Everyone knew and could perform the exercises very well, always with that deep stability and no pushback. Feeling the instructor's stability and what he could do to manipulate incoming force led me to conclude that yes indeed they were on the path to learning something reproducible.

The third day it was newbies with newbies working on basics and the Oahu guys (I guess I could fairly call them the intermediate students) working together on different exercises and some fighting applications. So no hands on with them on the third day but they were definitely moving on to more advanced things as a group.

As to how I felt to them, guarantee you two words: I suck.

(OH, almost forgot! I'm not an Aussie but an American living in Southern Japan. The Aussies were nice folks too)
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Old 12-23-2013, 09:09 PM   #56
NekVTAikido
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Re: Musings on a Hawaii IP Seminar

Quote:
Lisa Tomoleoni wrote: View Post
Dan Harden will be giving a seminar in Midwest USA on February 22-23. The dojo is located in Crystal Lake, IL. Please contact Dan at dojoseminars@gmail.com to register.
Lisa and her students have been absolutely fantastic to train with the the time I have visited. This should be a great seminar!
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Old 12-24-2013, 06:06 AM   #57
Bernd Lehnen
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Re: Musings on a Hawaii IP Seminar

Quote:
Scott Burke wrote: View Post
Ah! Good question.

Well of course, they all suck. But boy they suck way better than I do! I had hands on with Chris and Mert the first night doing push tests. I started out with Mert, he's the kind of guy you'd hear described as a "delightful chap" in a Christmas novel. He was very stable in unstable positions against a push and was able to explain what he was doing when he was doing it. For example, he crossed one foot, ankle over the other so he was basically one footed, you could say that one foot was resting on top of the other. I gave a firm push and he remained stable. His arms were up and out to his sides during this. He was not touching me with his hands. Did a double take on that.

As for Christopher Li, well being the White Wizard and a Dark Lord of the Sith (wrong Christopher Lee!) he demonstrated a high degree of stability against pushes as well. On one push against Chris I actually skidded backwards (Note, I am 6 feet 5 1/2 inches tall, abt 250 pounds give or take) a little, though I'll admit the rain may have helped a little with that.

One constant with all of the Hawaii folks that I trained with was that there was no sense of "push back" during any of the stability tests, since the object of the exercise was to "split force". They all maintained a relaxed disposition against different pushes. This is an important point, one of the more difficult things for me to work through during the weekend was ignoring pressure at the point of contact, whether it be a grab or a push. This is harder than you'd think, especially at very slow speeds with constant pressure.

For the second day I had chances to work in with several other of the Oahu crew to similar effect. I'm shamefully terrible with names so I apologize to the good folks there. Except Henry. (Ho ho, hee hee) Everyone knew and could perform the exercises very well, always with that deep stability and no pushback. Feeling the instructor's stability and what he could do to manipulate incoming force led me to conclude that yes indeed they were on the path to learning something reproducible.

The third day it was newbies with newbies working on basics and the Oahu guys (I guess I could fairly call them the intermediate students) working together on different exercises and some fighting applications. So no hands on with them on the third day but they were definitely moving on to more advanced things as a group.

As to how I felt to them, guarantee you two words: I suck.

(OH, almost forgot! I'm not an Aussie but an American living in Southern Japan. The Aussies were nice folks too)
Thank you Scott,
very much appreciated.

In my book, you're one of the rare guys who has the guts to share not only his enthusiasm but also his experience and stand for it.
After reading this post of yours and having a second close look at everything else you have written about this event so far, the photos Chris and Mert have provided clearly begin to speak to me for themselves.
Sucking this way isn't a bad thing at all.

My sincere apologies for taking you for an Aussie, don't know where I got this from, but I'm sure they would be proud to count you in.

Season's greetings and best wishes for the New Year!

Bernd

Last edited by Bernd Lehnen : 12-24-2013 at 06:15 AM.
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Old 12-24-2013, 04:44 PM   #58
Kevin Leavitt
 
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Re: Musings on a Hawaii IP Seminar

Quote:
William Hazen wrote: View Post
Look Kevin...Again I have nothing personal with Demetrio. He makes good points, the same questions I've asked. And I didn't fall off the turnip truck yesterday. I work in a field that requires "Peer Reviews" at every stage of the process. ( EW Development for the NAVY... yes I am a nerd. ) And yes my 35+ (or 40 I can't remember LOL ) years of experience counts for something. But it is still just my experience. If that has taught me anything it is that I should be sceptical of any claim of Martial Prowess on the internet.

So in answer to that statement who is we? You and a few others? Well...Simple...Bring the best BJJ person you know to Dan's next Seminar in your area. Make sure they have an open mind, and get your questions answered in less than a couple of minutes.

He's coming out in March and I am inviting Top Level Instructors in BJJ, MMA, Bagua, Boxing (yes Dan works with Boxers), Kung Fu San Soo, and various Aikido practices. That's what Dan wants. He's stated that he wants Top Level people at his workshops not just us "little people" (LOL) so that they can see the value and benefit of what he teaches, and hopefully his practice will spread through them to their students.

In the meantime... Suggesting that we have some kind of "Peer Review" process every time someone posts a personal experience is not the solution.; As my friend Ellis says (he coined the phrase for me IMHO) "It Had to be Felt".

Sua Sponte Sir and HAPPY HOLIDAYS to all.

WIlliam Hazen
Sua Sponte to you to Ranger!

I think what I am saying is being misunderstood. It is not about proving that Dan can or cannot roll up some high level BJJ guy. I could careless about that. Frankly, with the folks I know that attend the seminars, that would not be suprising. I am way past that. What I'd want to know from that guy is how, how does it apply and how do you integrate it.

That is not what I am discussing.

Why is it important to me to understand this? Simply because BJJ is a context that I can relate to and understand. It is a form of movement that I can relate to.

So, when you say "wow, it works in BJJ, I saw it work! I saw Dan roll up black belt X at a seminar." okay..so what? It is second hand information. I want to talk to the guy that got rolled up. I want to know what his opinion is. I want him to deconstruct it and then be able to reproduce it under conditions and measures that are customary within the scope of BJJ.

Other than that, it is simply a waste of time to discuss. I really think many of you guys are being way too assumptive about what is being said here. Way too defensive about the validation issues. I am way past that.

If we are going to have productive conversations they need to occur on a deeper level than second hand observation or testimony. Does that make sense?

Also, i certainly didn't mean to jump all over this thread from what was obviously a productive and good seminar. I think though when someone ask "how do you know?" that the question should be answered in a concise way that frames the context appropriately based on ones experience.

RLTW!

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Old 12-24-2013, 06:52 PM   #59
Gary David
 
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Re: Musings on a Hawaii IP Seminar

Quote:
Kevin Leavitt wrote: View Post
Other than that, it is simply a waste of time to discuss. I really think many of you guys are being way too assumptive about what is being said here. Way too defensive about the validation issues. I am way past that.

If we are going to have productive conversations they need to occur on a deeper level than second hand observation or testimony. Does that make sense?

Also, i certainly didn't mean to jump all over this thread from what was obviously a productive and good seminar. I think though when someone ask "how do you know?" that the question should be answered in a concise way that frames the context appropriately based on ones experience.

RLTW!
Kevin
I think the kind of discussion you would like to have here will and can not happen. I think these kinds of discussions for you will happen after you hook up with Dan and the venue will not be here. It is just what it is......

Have a great Christmas .......
Gary
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Old 12-25-2013, 05:10 AM   #60
Lee Salzman
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Re: Musings on a Hawaii IP Seminar

Quote:
Kevin Leavitt wrote: View Post
Sua Sponte to you to Ranger!

I think what I am saying is being misunderstood. It is not about proving that Dan can or cannot roll up some high level BJJ guy. I could careless about that. Frankly, with the folks I know that attend the seminars, that would not be suprising. I am way past that. What I'd want to know from that guy is how, how does it apply and how do you integrate it.

That is not what I am discussing.

Why is it important to me to understand this? Simply because BJJ is a context that I can relate to and understand. It is a form of movement that I can relate to.

So, when you say "wow, it works in BJJ, I saw it work! I saw Dan roll up black belt X at a seminar." okay..so what? It is second hand information. I want to talk to the guy that got rolled up. I want to know what his opinion is. I want him to deconstruct it and then be able to reproduce it under conditions and measures that are customary within the scope of BJJ.
Find the nearest flagpole or small tree in your vicinity. Push or pull on it to your heart's content, try to throw it, do whatever. That's pretty much the feel we are going for with basic IP stuff. While you are doing this, you may notice that your attempts to manipulate it cause you to lose your balance yourself because you push or pull yourself off your own base in the process. Now imagine the flagpole or tree is actually moving all the while this is going on, actually skilled in BJJ by itself, so it is able to actually do productive things while you are wrapped around it kind of helplessly. Why is that so hard to see the expediency of as something that is useful in a BJJ context?
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Old 12-25-2013, 09:31 AM   #61
Kevin Leavitt
 
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Re: Musings on a Hawaii IP Seminar

Lee, it is very simple. BJJ is NOT a tree, it is a dynamic and adaptive environment of semi-constrained non-compliance. I've done alot of pushing on walls and pushing on trees, they don't do much in return. Not to sound snarky, but come on, again, we should be past this level of discourse at this point. The dynamics of two people interacting in dynamic and adaptive ways counts for alot.

I'm bowing out of this conversation guys unless someone has something constructive to add, or can demonstrate to me how this applies in a dynamic and constantly adaptive environment.

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Old 12-25-2013, 10:54 AM   #62
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Re: Musings on a Hawaii IP Seminar

This is from Dan since he keeps being referenced. I am not going to take part.

Quote:
Kevin Leavitt wrote: View Post
Lee, it is very simple. BJJ is NOT a tree, it is a dynamic and adaptive environment of semi-constrained non-compliance. I've done alot of pushing on walls and pushing on trees, they don't do much in return. Not to sound snarky, but come on, again, we should be past this level of discourse at this point. The dynamics of two people interacting in dynamic and adaptive ways counts for alot.

I'm bowing out of this conversation guys unless someone has something constructive to add, or can demonstrate to me how this applies in a dynamic and constantly adaptive environment.
Quote:
Kevin
You should pass me by and go train with Rickson. I have trained with four of his guys who talked about that seem feel; him being very hard to move while completely relaxed, then feeling ghosty and then hard while he moved,
and they...talked about it not having anything to do with his bjj!!!!!!.
Even they understand the difference, Kevin! They came to me for a better model to train IP not to learn bjj.
Rickson talks about internals from Yoga and taiji and breath power and connection. If you need ]to [Ifeel it in a fight[/i], go fight Rickson.
Personally I think it is rather pointless and strange and completely misses the forest for the trees, but hey...go for it.
Every grappler I have played with gets that this work has value TO THEIR PERSONAL GAME. It isn't about the fight!!!!!

Lee made a point to try to tell you something here....
Quote:
Now imagine the flagpole or tree is (1.)actually moving all the while this is going on, actually skilled in BJJ by itself, (2.)so it is able to actually do productive things while you are wrapped around it kind of helplessly. Why is that so hard to see the expediency of as something that is useful in a BJJ context?
That addressed your point of applied use in combatives. You completely skipped over that. You were either unable to understand that point or did not choose to .
You don't seem to be able to understand that this is a skill set removed from any particular art. I bolded two comments of Lee's
1. Rickson would move and he would choose to use (as lee's "productive thing") bjj. But here's the thing; someone else would use something else as their "productive thing." It could be yoga, taiji, bagua, Aikido, or something more combative like Judo, bjj or better still MMA....
SO WHAT IS THE DIFFERENCE?
Although you give it a nod, in truth I suspect you personally do not believe that IP/ aiki has value under serious pressure. That "fighting" will undo it. So, be done with it. Go tell Rickson that the portion of his game assigned to breath power and connection has no value...Tell him it's ONLY his fighting skills that matter. Then ask him why he and his kid keep going on and on about breath work and connection.
Maybe he can offer you a voice "you can hear".....because he fights well.

To me the whole discussion is starting to sound as ignorant as "Monster trucks are coming to your neighborhood!" told in the best arena, megaphone, he-man voice.

The concept of IP as a conditioning for a strong more dynamically stable platform -standing or on the ground-as a separate issue from tactical use is so staggeringly obvious that I have no more words to offer. I don't want to contend with you any longer. I have too much respect for you on any other topic.
Merry Christmas
Dan
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Old 12-25-2013, 11:04 AM   #63
Lee Salzman
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Re: Musings on a Hawaii IP Seminar

Quote:
Kevin Leavitt wrote: View Post
Lee, it is very simple. BJJ is NOT a tree, it is a dynamic and adaptive environment of semi-constrained non-compliance. I've done alot of pushing on walls and pushing on trees, they don't do much in return. Not to sound snarky, but come on, again, we should be past this level of discourse at this point. The dynamics of two people interacting in dynamic and adaptive ways counts for alot.

I'm bowing out of this conversation guys unless someone has something constructive to add, or can demonstrate to me how this applies in a dynamic and constantly adaptive environment.
Kevin, but that is exactly my point! The tree example is a way to feel the quality in a pure form, but this quality is expressed in free-form movement. I am in a judo dojo, week in week out, practicing this stuff, in randori. I am not making up hypothetical strawmen, I am describing what I practice, in a dynamic, non-compliant environment.

And it is exactly that IP quality that lets me gradually focus less on how to counter their movements to get kuzushi on me, and I can focus more on just my own entries. It changes the dynamic so they react to me more, and I spend less time reacting to them. Their counters to what I do are also less and less effective, because they're still stuck trying to figure out how to break down my IP structure via timing and speed, trying to find windows of opportunity, when gradually, these are becoming less and less effective against me the better I become at maintaining IP under stress and I am slowly erasing these windows of opportunity they might have had so that, in the limit, they will be nigh impossible to find.

I am just trying to convey to you why it is cool and interesting as a way of augmenting the ordinary power of the body so that you can, in fact, go back to a non-compliant environment. It's not much different than me claiming that endurance training has helped me be less gased out when doing long sessions of randori or that strength training might have helped me better deal with the strength of stronger opponents. Please don't take what I'm saying as argumentative, it is not meant to be - just presenting what I have learned.
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Old 12-25-2013, 11:15 AM   #64
Kevin Leavitt
 
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Re: Musings on a Hawaii IP Seminar

Zoe, thanks for posting this, although I am not sure where it came from as I did not receive this from Dan. Maybe it is an email that did not make it to my inbox yet?

In response to Rickson. I train with a former student of his now, and we do various exercise and drills that he has learned from Rickson.

There is also an assumption that I do not understand IS in anyway or that I do not employ it in anyway. I disagree.

There is an assumption that I am dismissing the value of this. Please show me where I have done this. I am simply asking for a deeper understanding of it in an integrated manner. I am at a loss to what I am failing to communicate here.

Why does any of this come across as skeptical, threatening, or dismissive? I do see the value in the training and only want to further my understanding of this in an integrated and contextual manner.

I believe that several of you only want to see things the way you want to see them at this point, and you have made up your mind about me and what you want to project on me about my beliefs, thoughts, attitudes, and abilities. I am severely disappointed and let down by this. I have no clue as to why this has happened or gone in this direction.

This is very bizarre to me and I simply do not understand.

I am pretty much finished with this and probably with Aikiweb in the future as I do not see a community that is open to critical discourse or discovery here any longer.

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Old 12-25-2013, 11:18 AM   #65
Kevin Leavitt
 
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Re: Musings on a Hawaii IP Seminar

Quote:
Lee Salzman wrote: View Post
Kevin, but that is exactly my point! The tree example is a way to feel the quality in a pure form, but this quality is expressed in free-form movement. I am in a judo dojo, week in week out, practicing this stuff, in randori. I am not making up hypothetical strawmen, I am describing what I practice, in a dynamic, non-compliant environment.

And it is exactly that IP quality that lets me gradually focus less on how to counter their movements to get kuzushi on me, and I can focus more on just my own entries. It changes the dynamic so they react to me more, and I spend less time reacting to them. Their counters to what I do are also less and less effective, because they're still stuck trying to figure out how to break down my IP structure via timing and speed, trying to find windows of opportunity, when gradually, these are becoming less and less effective against me the better I become at maintaining IP under stress and I am slowly erasing these windows of opportunity they might have had so that, in the limit, they will be nigh impossible to find.

I am just trying to convey to you why it is cool and interesting as a way of augmenting the ordinary power of the body so that you can, in fact, go back to a non-compliant environment. It's not much different than me claiming that endurance training has helped me be less gased out when doing long sessions of randori or that strength training might have helped me better deal with the strength of stronger opponents. Please don't take what I'm saying as argumentative, it is not meant to be - just presenting what I have learned.
Thanks Lee, this conversation is heading in the direction that I wanted to explore and I appreciate it. Maybe in the future we can have this conversation offline. I see no value in continuing this here on Aikiweb. I do appreciate it!

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Old 12-25-2013, 01:06 PM   #66
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Re: Musings on a Hawaii IP Seminar

You are welcome Kevin
Dan asked me to send it to you. It wasn't sent by email.
This will be the last one
Quote:
Kevin
I know you are sincere
I know you support IS training.
I know this.
As to the rest
I am as frustrated as you. Frustration doesn't mean ill will or lack of support for one another!

I didn't mean to put words in your mouth or make assumptions. I reached conclusions based on what I thought you were saying in your writing. I don't see how after training with so many IS guys you can't see the value of Internal strength in free style fighting. Sorry, I just can't. It's all one thing to me. How would the very things that the IS (you support) and is noted for; remaining dynamic stable under pressure, feeling like a steel belted rubber tire and hitting like a truck..NOT BE MARTIAL??
I still don't understand your questioning that. Can you say or outline it differently? The only logical conclusion I could reach was that you thought it would fail under stress.
I only suggested Rickson as it seems you are looking for that "fighting angle" and I thought he might be able to offer you one level of expertise that I can't.

Don't worry about it though. We will eventually meet and I will do my best to answer as best as I can.
No worries, my friend. No worries.
Let's do this by email or phone I am not a member here and I don't want to strain Jun's courtesy.
Dan
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Old 12-25-2013, 02:47 PM   #67
Demetrio Cereijo
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Re: Musings on a Hawaii IP Seminar

Dan, If you are reading (or if someone can send you) this.

I have a lot of respect for you as a person, also for your skills and your attempts to making them teachable and trainable.

The cultish attitude of some of your followers is what irks me. I'll accept that is not your fault so...

Merry Christmas and Happy New Year

PS. About the "Lets see, you are more of a white pajama, martial art, dojo and competition, warrior guy am I right?"... you are, to some degree, wrong. I was young and dumb too.

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Old 12-25-2013, 03:21 PM   #68
Chris Li
 
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Re: Musings on a Hawaii IP Seminar

Quote:
Demetrio Cereijo wrote: View Post
Dan, If you are reading (or if someone can send you) this.

I have a lot of respect for you as a person, also for your skills and your attempts to making them teachable and trainable.

The cultish attitude of some of your followers is what irks me. I'll accept that is not your fault so...

Merry Christmas and Happy New Year
We won't talk about the naked dancing and blood rituals at midnight, then...

You have to realize that a lot of the folks that train openly receive some kind of pushback (openly or not) from the conventional Aikido community, even over and above what's seen on Aikiweb, and that can make them touchy.

Best,

Chris

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Old 12-25-2013, 03:31 PM   #69
Kevin Leavitt
 
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Re: Musings on a Hawaii IP Seminar

No i don't believe it will fail under stress. In fact just the opposite. I am searching for ways to make it successful. Again, I think there is an extreme misunderstanding in the methods of analysis or critique that I am presenting. I apologize if that is not clear.

I am one to take a very direct path towards getting to the core of an issue. My method of reasoning is not to disprove IS, but to earnestly seek knowledge and wisdom in how to integrate this.

Having suffered a few fairly serious injuries that have limited my training, I have found new ways of moving and responding to things, I am interesting in expanding my knowledge and abilities. I have found that first person experience is the only way to get to this; not through third person experience. Thus, I tend to deal with issues in a very direct way to not waste time dealing with unnecessary or useless information that simply is not helpful.

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Old 12-25-2013, 03:40 PM   #70
Kevin Leavitt
 
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Re: Musings on a Hawaii IP Seminar

Quote:
Christopher Li wrote: View Post
We won't talk about the naked dancing and blood rituals at midnight, then...

You have to realize that a lot of the folks that train openly receive some kind of pushback (openly or not) from the conventional Aikido community, even over and above what's seen on Aikiweb, and that can make them touchy.

Best,

Chris
Well we have all done stuff we look back on and laugh about or are embarrassed about. I cannot believe how much things have changed. A couple of years back I found some old threads from the Aikido-L listserv from back around 95 or 96 when I first got involved with Aikido. It is amazing to see how far we've (I) have come in understanding, I think there is still much more to learn that has yet to be discovered. I remember the Ki wars from back in the day!

I am sure that my discourse and questioning must be frustrating for some, and especially for someone like Dan Harden. He has been where I'm trying to go, I am sure he is trying to save me time and frustration, but I am a knucklehead, otherwise why would I still be a Soldier! I have a need to ask tough questions and see things in my own terms.

Thanks all!

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Old 12-25-2013, 03:49 PM   #71
Demetrio Cereijo
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Re: Musings on a Hawaii IP Seminar

Quote:
Christopher Li wrote: View Post
We won't talk about the naked dancing and blood rituals at midnight, then...

You have to realize that a lot of the folks that train openly receive some kind of pushback (openly or not) from the conventional Aikido community, even over and above what's seen on Aikiweb, and that can make them touchy.

Best,

Chris
Chris, respectfully, I don't give a damn.

Mele Kalikimaka me ka Hau'oli Makahiki Hou

(Bowing out, there's a new TIE to download and carefully read).

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Old 12-25-2013, 04:02 PM   #72
Kevin Leavitt
 
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Re: Musings on a Hawaii IP Seminar

Yes, it is an interesting read. If read it today as well Demetrio!

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Old 12-25-2013, 06:30 PM   #73
Dazaifoo
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Re: Musings on a Hawaii IP Seminar

Hi folks, the OP here! This has been fascinating but we should all remember the spirit of the season! Forget all that talk of cults and go share this time with family as you don your holiday garb. Relax and sit around the glowing tree thing so we can thank either the red suited magical fat man for toys or the sin eating super baby from another dimension for that big favor he'll do later. Opinions vary on who the season is truly about, (but we all know who's right, your side!)

Save your strength and don't argue here. Your in-laws will be there soon, you'll need your strength reserves. So whatever you believe, know, or just want to shout... Save it for New Year's when we can all get drunk and howl at the moon.

Happy Kwanzaa y'all!
Scott
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Old 12-26-2013, 02:15 AM   #74
bkedelen
 
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Re: Musings on a Hawaii IP Seminar

It is painful to see you folks respond to Kevin's questions with "go train with Dan" and then have Dan tell Kevin to "go fight Rickson".

I eagerly look forward to the day that people here speak with their own voice about their own skills instead of leaning on the reputation of those with which you are (sometimes barely) associated to bolster your credibility.

If I presumed to speak for Ikeda Sensei the way you people speak for your teachers (and the way your teachers try to speak for teachers now dead), there would be a day of reckoning I would not live long enough to never forget.
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Old 12-26-2013, 10:55 AM   #75
Chris Li
 
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Re: Musings on a Hawaii IP Seminar

Quote:
Benjamin Edelen wrote: View Post
It is painful to see you folks respond to Kevin's questions with "go train with Dan" and then have Dan tell Kevin to "go fight Rickson".

I eagerly look forward to the day that people here speak with their own voice about their own skills instead of leaning on the reputation of those with which you are (sometimes barely) associated to bolster your credibility.

If I presumed to speak for Ikeda Sensei the way you people speak for your teachers (and the way your teachers try to speak for teachers now dead), there would be a day of reckoning I would not live long enough to never forget.
Well, the original issue erupted around people questioning the veracity of a tale about Dan - in that context I don't think that it's unreasonable to suggest going to the source if you have questions about the mechanics of how that works. Isn't that better than trying to speak for Dan (who's not on Aikiweb to discuss this stuff anyway)?

In any case, I didn't see anybody trying to speak for Dan - I did see many people talk about their experiences meeting Dan, which is a very different thing.

I did see Lee trying to get things back on track and discuss the skills themselves in the context of his own skills and experience - but it didn't go anywhere.

I did see people accused of lying, in a very nasty way, which none of the "non-Dan" folks seemed to have any objection to.

I don't think that there's anything wrong with people recounting their personal experiences and what they've seen, even if it doesn't meet the standards of a peer review, on an internet chat forum. Ellis made a very popular column series that is entirely based on subjective experience, and everybody seems to think that it is a great idea.

As for talking about dead people - I don't see any objections when conventional Aikido instructors talk about what they think those dead guys thought (and most of them do, some of them even write books about it), I don't see why they ought to have an exclusive corner on the market. Further, I would think that it is an instructor's responsibility to state their interpretation of the what those people did and said - isn't that what any instructor does? I don't understand your objection here.

Best,

Chris

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