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Old 12-19-2013, 09:30 PM   #26
Aikibu
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Re: Musings on a Hawaii IP Seminar

Some can Doubt all they want... Question it ad infinitum....I did and found out when I experianced it for myself that I was a ignorant fool.

I have felt it and and not one Martial Artist in my 35 years of experience has/had the kind of Aiki Mr. Harden has...

So much so that I personally find it pointless to practice any kind of Waza without trying to learn and implement what he has shown me.

It's not magic either. Mr. Harden with explicit detail explains, demonstrates, and then teaches exactly how to achieve aiki.

Dear old Stan was right.

So I suggest that if you are serious about understanding and practicing Aikido the way O' Sensei taught it (and by extension Sokaku Takeda and Sugawa Shihan) with the power of "Heaven and Earth" (now that I truly know what that means ) and preserve the legacy of AIKI-do to pass on to your students...Drop the rock and show up to a seminar. Show Respect, Keep an Open Mind, and you too just may experience the real reason why you got into Aikido in the first place.

"Practice Hard" now has a whole new meaning for me.

William Hazen
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Old 12-20-2013, 06:53 AM   #27
Demetrio Cereijo
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Re: Musings on a Hawaii IP Seminar

Quote:
Scott Burke wrote: View Post
Keep in mind that there are those who don't wish to have their names put on the web without their foreknowledge. Think of it as merely a courtesy and not some attempt at bragging about an unverifiable event.
Then these people who are undoubtly in their right to remain anonymous should not be used by third parties to endorse Mr. Harden skills, especially when claims of 'fighting' are done. IMO, of course.

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Meyer Goo, a man of some skill an reputation mind you, has given a personal endorsement. That is not something to be quickly glanced over.
And thats good to me.

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Looking at your website, howdoarmbar, the first video I see is Ki Master Meets Skeptics. I sense now a source for your initial skepticism. What the man in your video is doing is not IP, not even close.
The source of my skepticism is sourced way back than this. Also I never stated this EFO guys are doing IP.

Quote:
Tell you what. Public offer, right now. It's Christmas, I'm feeling generous (X-mas bonuses do that to a fellow) and honestly I believe you need to feel this stuff for real. I see from your profile that you live in Spain, so most of Europe I assume will be in reach for you. I will pay for a seminar with Dan Harden for you. You cover all transportation and hoteling, food etc (I'm not feeling that generous!) and I will pay for you to feel what this guy has to offer. PM me and I'll see about Western Unioning you the funds. Deal?

Honest Injun, I'll be your pal on this. Let me do this for you.
Thanks for the offer. I'll consider it seriously.

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Old 12-20-2013, 07:07 AM   #28
Demetrio Cereijo
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Re: Musings on a Hawaii IP Seminar

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Jamie Yugawa wrote: View Post
Well there are people out there who train with Dan openly and have no problem with that. Others may have issues with political or personal conflicts in openly stating they are training in this methodology. The group they are affiliated with may disapprove. We all know of the disharmony just within the Aikido world.
Well, I am completely unaffiliated and do not remeber having a personal conflict with Mr. Harden (unless divergences of opinion count as 'personal conflict). So my skepticism about what people says about Mr. Harden fighting feats is not related to aikido politics, bussiness or personal issues.

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As far as the BJJ champion is concerned, do you really think a professional athlete, who makes their living on winning fights would want to openly reveal their "Secret training method" to the world?? I think not.
First he has to be a real BJJ champion. Champion of what... State? Pan-Ams? Mundials? Rank, weight class and age are relevant data to determine what kind of BJJ champion is he and how this "secret training method" has made him a champion.

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You also have some willing to put money up to show you whats its all about. That's how compelling the training is. We all came to meet Dan with an open mind. What ever doubts there were previously were wiped out from the first contact. To quote William Gleason Sensei "This IS Aikido".
This is not about if "This IS Aikido", this is about Zoe's claims about Mr. Harden fighting high level athletes.

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Old 12-20-2013, 09:44 AM   #29
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Re: Musings on a Hawaii IP Seminar

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Demetrio Cereijo wrote: View Post

This is not about if "This IS Aikido", this is about Zoe's claims about Mr. Harden fighting high level athletes.
Let's please discuss the training model and skills as referenced in the OP, decoupled from the personalities involved - particulary when the person(s) involved are unable to post here to defend themselves.
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Old 12-20-2013, 10:08 AM   #30
Demetrio Cereijo
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Re: Musings on a Hawaii IP Seminar

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Joshua Landin wrote: View Post
the person(s) involved are unable to post here to defend themselves.
Are the person(s) involved being attacked? How so?

The only person who could be considered as being attacked is Zoe. Has she been banned?

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Old 12-20-2013, 10:21 AM   #31
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Re: Musings on a Hawaii IP Seminar

Demetrio, I think you misinterpreted my post about the "openly training methodology" part. I was not referring your background or affiliation. I was referring to the "high level athletes" we are discussing that rolled with Dan. They may want to remain anonymous for several reasons. I and others dont know them personally or witnessed the training so we are hearing a second hand story. Why would I believe a second hand story? The reason is simple. I have seen first hand what Dan can do, My validation is simple.
I have felt it.
I have seen it.
Others have also. You dont have that unfortunately. So I understand your skepticism. Change that aspect. Come over and hang out at a seminar. Come to Hawaii. I would love to meet you. We can train and hang out. I will buy you a Mai Tai and we will dance hula on the beach. I am serious.

In all honestly,,,Do not deny yourself the opportunity to change and enlighten your view on Budo.

I know that part of the skepticism is curiosity, It is the factor that brought us all here in the first place. Ask yourself honestly "Why are all of these people hanging around this Dan guy?" There has to be a valid reason right?

As far as the names issue, does that really matter? Honestly. Names, ranks, trophies, belts. They all in the long run dont matter. If I suddenly stated that an Olympic gold medalist wrestling guy or the Abu Dhabi champ were training with Dan suddenly this would validate him? If I posted their names everywhere, is this the validation you and others need to ease your skepticism? Think about that..... No really.... .Think about it.

If that's what you need...... perhaps this is not the path for you.

One little candle can light 10,000 candles- Koichi Tohei Sensei
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Old 12-20-2013, 10:31 AM   #32
Demetrio Cereijo
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Re: Musings on a Hawaii IP Seminar

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Jamie Yugawa wrote: View Post
Ask yourself honestly "Why are all of these people hanging around this Dan guy?" There has to be a valid reason right?
Because he is very good at what he does while many of these people who now adore him have spent most of their martial arts lives believing they were awesome but, in reality, they sucked?.

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If that's what you need...... perhaps this is not the path for you.
Perhaps.

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Old 12-20-2013, 10:47 AM   #33
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Re: Musings on a Hawaii IP Seminar

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Demetrio Cereijo wrote: View Post
Because he is very good at what he does while many of these people who now adore him have spent most of their martial arts lives believing they were awesome but, in reality, they sucked?.
Yeah you are absolutely right on that idea!!

Aikido shihans 7th and 6th dans, BJJ black belts, Wrestling champs, the list goes on and on. You are absolutely right.

We all suck!

There was a name drop earlier in the thread that was deleted I think. This guy is a well known high ranking Aikido BJJ guy. I am not sure if you saw that name but I didn't think he sucks....but I guess he does..just like the rest of us...

And no...unfortunately I am not going to name drop any of these guys.

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Perhaps.
Well so much for trying. Good luck with your training Demetrio!! Mahalo!!

One little candle can light 10,000 candles- Koichi Tohei Sensei
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Old 12-20-2013, 11:05 AM   #34
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Re: Musings on a Hawaii IP Seminar

Quote:
Demetrio Cereijo wrote: View Post
Well, I am completely unaffiliated and do not remeber having a personal conflict with Mr. Harden (unless divergences of opinion count as 'personal conflict). So my skepticism about what people says about Mr. Harden fighting feats is not related to aikido politics, bussiness or personal issues.

First he has to be a real BJJ champion. Champion of what... State? Pan-Ams? Mundials? Rank, weight class and age are relevant data to determine what kind of BJJ champion is he and how this "secret training method" has made him a champion.

This is not about if "This IS Aikido", this is about Zoe's claims about Mr. Harden fighting high level athletes.
Was the choice of word risque, regardless of the truth of the matter? Yes, yes it was. Did you make your point? Yes. But moving on, if you want to just believe it was Joe-Schmoe-BJJ-Beginner if it will make you drop it, then just imagine it was that...

There are two separate issues here that need to be separated: 1) does the person know how to fight a BJJer, even without IP? and 2) can IP be used as an additive/enhancer to that skill?

The first part, that's uninteresting, and there are a lot of good BJJ guys, without IP. IP alone can't and won't allow you to stand against a grappler. Period. End of story. Nobody will ever debate this, not even the dudes who are teaching you IP. So even if some IP teacher could beat or stalemate another grappler, I would only really care about him doing it if he could explicitly show/explain how IP was used to do it, and why it is expedient for the scenario where it was used versus some other more common way of dealing with it...

Thus, the second part, that's a far more interesting question, about the ways a skilled aikidoka or grappler can incorporate IP into their methodology to better deal with other grapplers. Being able to neutralize pushes, pulls, shoots, sweeps, and other forms of throws or kuzushi without having to move to adjust, and in the process, getting kuzushi on the guy trying to do it to you in the first place. Being able to neutralize or unwind locks without having to use overt movements or diversion tactics either. Being able to deliver power from the ground even when ribs/hips are pinned flat. Making your own kuzushi harder to feel or track.

That's just some uses, there are probably lots more. Is stuff like that useful against another grappler and have the potential to take anyone's game to a new level? Hell yes. But do you still need to be a good grappler, independent of IP, to deliver that stuff in realistic grappling situations and will you get shut down if you're just good at IP and not grappling? Also hell yes.

And this gets back to the original post, that it doesn't negate the validity of martial systems you have already learned, but it adds depth via a venue that many of us did not previously have a way to explore simply because we did not know of it. There are plenty of ways to compensate for a lack of IP, and many martial artists are very good at it, but you can also use IP to tackle some of those problems as well.

Last edited by Lee Salzman : 12-20-2013 at 11:15 AM.
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Old 12-20-2013, 12:55 PM   #35
Demetrio Cereijo
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Re: Musings on a Hawaii IP Seminar

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Lee Salzman wrote: View Post
Was the choice of word risque, regardless of the truth of the matter? Yes, yes it was. Did you make your point? Yes. But moving on, if you want to just believe it was Joe-Schmoe-BJJ-Beginner if it will make you drop it, then just imagine it was that...
So you think I'd be satisfied by exchanging an exaggeration for a lie?

Given some time we will start to read stories abot Mr. Harden and the firing squad, Mr Harden jumping like a movie ninja and the like.

Does he needs that?

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Old 12-20-2013, 01:01 PM   #36
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Re: Musings on a Hawaii IP Seminar

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Honest opinion: I learned more about Aikido this past weekend than I have in all of my 23 years of practice. Being given access to this training model is simply transcendental. There is no other way to say it, this is Takemusu Aikido. And, it DOES NOT negate that which I already know, it does not negate the legacy of Saito Sensei and my years in the Iwama tradition, in fact it illuminates all of it in such a way as to show us how we should be training. This is the power we've been seeking for years but could never achieve, no matter how hard we pushed ourselves in training or how much sciatic nerve crushing ukemi we took. IP is everything we got into Aikido for in the first place, it can be supremely soft and just stunningly devastating in the same moment. To put it another way, "This. F***ing. Rules!"
I think its tough to post about an experience that changes the way you view aikido. You're admitting your perspective changed, you're implying the new perspective is better than the old (which some people still hold). You're not yet adequately informed to truly explain what is going on, so your excited ramblings are incomplete at best and incoherent at worst. Then you have the criticism that basically either calls you a liar or a fool. Or both. I find myself commenting more about the courage behind the posts when I read them.

Did everyone watch you go through the stages of grief? Dan laughed at me because my face showed this realization. I am glad that you had a great experience. We're getting ready for the man to head South in January.

As a bit of thread drift that these conversations always tend to go... Aiki as a concept is teachable, reproduce-able, and demonstrable. Gleason Sensei is a great choice if you want to stay more aikido-ish. So is Ledyard sensei. I don't think anyone is making claims any more unreal than what we regularly accept in aikido. When was the last time we read a post when someone claimed to have self-defense experience, to which a user replied, "well, unless you have documented proof of you fighting (fill in the blank), then I believe not only that you are a liar, but you also are not doing aikido."

If you do not want to participate in this investigative process, then don't. Lee made a great comment that aiki methodology does not negate the validity of other training styles. I agree. Personally, there are several methods of teaching with which I do not agree. I do not post about them because I have no interest in whether they do or do not work - they are not going to help me find the aikido I want to perform.

We regularly practice IP in osae waza. It helps. Until you use IP to escape (thanks Hugh, I'm lookin' at you). We regularly use IP in aikido. It helps. It is a constant work in progress because we are so poor at creating a unified body that we have to practice. No rituals. No excommunications. No hunting down humans like they were animals as part of a sick sport... yet.

Last edited by jonreading : 12-20-2013 at 01:06 PM.

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Old 12-20-2013, 03:23 PM   #37
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Re: Musings on a Hawaii IP Seminar

Lee and Jon, thanks so much for your comments. I am hoping one day to get on the Mat with Dan. I would have this year if his trip to Germany had not been cancelled!

Its good to hear so many people are getting so much out of there experiences with Dan!

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Old 12-20-2013, 03:36 PM   #38
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Re: Musings on a Hawaii IP Seminar

Demetrio,

I agree there are a few star struck zealots out there with some unrealistic expectations about what training will do for them. Consider their base of training, what the know prior to training and their paradigms. They are not really competent enough to say what is what when it applies to fighting or combatives. They are only extrapolating what they feel is possible.

However, there are also some people that train with Dan that I have a lot of respect for and that I have personally trained with that do know what they are talking about and their assessments are consistent and reasonable.

I cannot comment on integration of Dan's IP/IS since I have not experienced it. I have high hopes that he will be able to shed some light on my understanding of things. When I do get with Dan, I will most certainly provide an honest assessment of my opinions!

I can tell you that Dan has been more than willing to get with me, we just have not been able to be in the same town for the past couple of years for many reasons!

The IS/IP training I have experienced, what limited exposure I have had, has been useful and I certainly would not categorize it has a waste of time albeit, I also did not go out and abandon my training either as some have done!

Dan has been clear that it is not a replacement for your training and that what you do with it will be an individual thing.

That said, I can also certainly understand your skepticism and critique. You know I share many of the same issues and concerns!

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Old 12-20-2013, 04:01 PM   #39
Demetrio Cereijo
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Re: Musings on a Hawaii IP Seminar

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Kevin Leavitt wrote: View Post
there are also some people that train with Dan that I have a lot of respect for .... that do know what they are talking about and their assessments are consistent and reasonable.
I know . I respect them too and have no probem with them.

Quote:
That said, I can also certainly understand your skepticism and critique. You know I share many of the same issues and concerns!
But I am not criticizing Dan, or downplaying his skills or saying IP is not useful... What irks me is people who feels the need of being 'dishonest', telling aggrandised tales about him and, when called out for spewing bs, they go all crazy and say their master is being attacked.

What kind of grown adults behave like this, seriously?

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Old 12-20-2013, 04:40 PM   #40
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Re: Musings on a Hawaii IP Seminar

agreed Demetrio! I think if you've spent 20 plus years doing something wrong and someone comes in and shows you what right looks like...it hits you like a lightening bolt. From there it must appear that everything is possible. I think you begin to extrapolate how awesome this must be and how it must transfer to everything in the most amazing way!

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Old 12-20-2013, 04:43 PM   #41
Dazaifoo
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Re: Musings on a Hawaii IP Seminar

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Demetrio Cereijo wrote: View Post
What irks me is people who feels the need of being 'dishonest', telling aggrandised tales about him and, when called out for spewing bs, they go all crazy and say their master is being attacked.
My master, oh ko! This ain't about Dan! That troglodyte couldn't find up if you rolled him on his back. And the old man feet, good grief! Ultimately it's about what this stuff can do, the potential it can unlock in a person.

The one commonality in all these so-called dishonest aggrandized tales and bs spewing that you claim: Those people were there. Look at post histories, look at the adaptation rate. The only people who call bs are those who have not gone to a seminar! You have a chance to make an informed statement on this, that's honesty friend.

Free seminar. Please do it. You will love it.
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Old 12-20-2013, 06:24 PM   #42
Peter Goldsbury
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Re: Musings on a Hawaii IP Seminar

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Scott Burke wrote: View Post
My master, oh ko! This ain't about Dan! ... Ultimately it's about what this stuff can do, the potential it can unlock in a person.
Hello Mr Burke,

With respect, I disagree. I have felt 'this stuff' from others (not from Mr Harden) and I have no doubts about the 'potential it can unlock in a person,' as you put it. However, much of the recent discussion concerns a specific statement made in Post #15, about 'many types of martial artists and fighters including a BJJ champ and several MMA-ers.' I should add that I think the questions asked by Demetrio Cereijo were quite reasonable.

In an effort to bring the thread back on track, I would like to ask you a question. The question is a restatement of the question asked by Lee Salzman in Post #2 and your answer in Post #3. You discussed the riai of your school and mentioned that the three methods as practiced were insufficient:

"for developing the type of dantien necessary for creating IP and manifesting Yin and Yang in the body. Without such a properly developed dantien, there can be no Aiki, the manifestation of Yin and Yang (or In and Yo if you prefer) from any point of contact. Additionally, there is no framework for the development of intent, which really is the heart of the matter and the true driver of all of these endeavors"
.
Was this because Saito Morihiro did not teach this? Was it because he taught it, but you could not 'see' it? Was it something that you had to 'steal', as Morihei Ueshiba also seems to have required his students to do?

I knew Saito Shihan and the seminars I attended were mainly around the time he was writing the books you mention and a supplementary question concerns these volumes, which, as you know, were translated by William Witt, Kyoichiro Nunokawa and Dennis N Tatoian, who presumably were his students. Are there any other places where you think the English translation is inaccurate or unsatisfactory, or the Japanese text is obscure?

Best wishes,

P A Goldsbury

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Old 12-20-2013, 06:26 PM   #43
Aikibu
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Re: Musings on a Hawaii IP Seminar

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Demetrio Cereijo wrote: View Post
I know . I respect them too and have no probem with them.

But I am not criticizing Dan, or downplaying his skills or saying IP is not useful... What irks me is people who feels the need of being 'dishonest', telling aggrandised tales about him and, when called out for spewing bs, they go all crazy and say their master is being attacked.

What kind of grown adults behave like this, seriously?
Can you be more specific about who is being dishonest or exaggerating? How about someone who "went crazy" over their "master" being attacked? I can't seem to find any post that matches your "observation".

William Hazen

Last edited by Aikibu : 12-20-2013 at 06:29 PM.
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Old 12-20-2013, 08:11 PM   #44
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Re: Musings on a Hawaii IP Seminar

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Peter A Goldsbury wrote: View Post
Hello Mr Burke,

With respect, I disagree. I have felt 'this stuff' from others (not from Mr Harden) and I have no doubts about the 'potential it can unlock in a person,' as you put it. However, much of the recent discussion concerns a specific statement made in Post #15, about 'many types of martial artists and fighters including a BJJ champ and several MMA-ers.' I should add that I think the questions asked by Demetrio Cereijo were quite reasonable.

In an effort to bring the thread back on track, I would like to ask you a question. The question is a restatement of the question asked by Lee Salzman in Post #2 and your answer in Post #3. You discussed the riai of your school and mentioned that the three methods as practiced were insufficient:

"for developing the type of dantien necessary for creating IP and manifesting Yin and Yang in the body. Without such a properly developed dantien, there can be no Aiki, the manifestation of Yin and Yang (or In and Yo if you prefer) from any point of contact. Additionally, there is no framework for the development of intent, which really is the heart of the matter and the true driver of all of these endeavors"
.
Was this because Saito Morihiro did not teach this? Was it because he taught it, but you could not 'see' it? Was it something that you had to 'steal', as Morihei Ueshiba also seems to have required his students to do?

I knew Saito Shihan and the seminars I attended were mainly around the time he was writing the books you mention and a supplementary question concerns these volumes, which, as you know, were translated by William Witt, Kyoichiro Nunokawa and Dennis N Tatoian, who presumably were his students. Are there any other places where you think the English translation is inaccurate or unsatisfactory, or the Japanese text is obscure?

Best wishes,

P A Goldsbury
I too think that Demetrio's questions are quite reasonable and can be answered very easily by asking Mr. Harden in person, something I'm trying to arrange.

As far as I and everybody else knows Saito Sensei taught everything that he knew openly through the waza and weapons work (unless there was a super double secret inner circle which I know nothing about). Of course I could have missed something I was intended to steal. I think the greater point here is why spend decades trying to steal something when you can be instructed directly. Now that I've received such instruction I can look back at what I have learned and see just how inefficient stealing is as a learning structure. Who cares if it's supposedly traditional, it is a bad way to learn. Period.

The risk that "stealing knowledge" runs is that as time marches on, the outside form of practice focuses to what works in the immediate. Who can notice the subtle lessons when we're all instructed as uke to grab harder, attack harder, go full out! Soon, we learn that the beefiest and strongest of us can't be moved, therefore their way is the way. Upper body strength, wrenching joints, those rule the day. It is happening now, I've felt that too. We may disagree on that point, and that's fine.

As for the books, I find the English translations to be generally good but spotty throughout. Clunky turns of phrase that cause the reader to skip ahead and consider the really important material gibberish. I've heard it from too many people, that all the Fire, Water, In Yo stuff is just the old man rambling. Just grab someone and do nikkyo! Having been instructed in what Fire and Water represent, what Heaven, Earth, Man means and how they are used in a training model, I'm glad I don't have to make uneducated guesses based off of wonky text anymore. Perhaps what is needed is less a re-translation and more an accompanying commentary. Otherwise we're left with a chunk of dead space that gets flipped past so that we can see the cool pictures and say, wow Hitohiro looked so young!

I only met Saito once. Sweet man, very sleepy at the time. Jet lag. This would be 94 or 95 if my memory serves. My fondest memory was of watching him yawn while all the seminar participants practiced their techniques, ki-ais echoing everywhere. I watched him do something curious, he put his forearm against a support beam and opened his hand, curling it in kokyu. He matched the movement with his opposite hand. Kokyu, he would later say. Use kokyu when you perform techniques. Sadly I never got hands on with him, I was a lowly 5th kyu and there was an invisible velvet rope between me and Sensei. My older brother did, he was an ichi deshi for several months. He told me that when he grabbed Saito it felt like slipping on ice.

For years later, all the teachers I knew would say the same thing, use kokyu. Kokyu ryoku, arms out, techniques with breath power. 19 years I did that. Witt Sensei too, (awesome guy BTW, highly recommended) I've grabbed him, he turned his hands. Kokyu, very powerful stuff. Never felt the ice though.

Until I met Mr. Harden. For all that time, up until that meeting, what I felt and what I thought I was doing. That was not kokyu. Subtle mechanical levering, yes, but not kokyu-ho. Mr. Harden demonstrated this for me and explained it to me, and most importantly I didn't have to spend half my life trying to steal it. I guess I could have gone on another 20 years or so, name checking all the teachers I knew over the course of my life and turning my hand and waxing on about, oh who knows what. Or I could just get someone to teach it to me. For real.

And there it is.
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Old 12-20-2013, 09:20 PM   #45
Aikibu
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Re: Musings on a Hawaii IP Seminar

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Scott Burke wrote: View Post
I too think that Demetrio's questions are quite reasonable and can be answered very easily by asking Mr. Harden in person, something I'm trying to arrange.
Until I met Mr. Harden. For all that time, up until that meeting, what I felt and what I thought I was doing. That was not kokyu. Subtle mechanical levering, yes, but not kokyu-ho. Mr. Harden demonstrated this for me and explained it to me, and most importantly I didn't have to spend half my life trying to steal it. I guess I could have gone on another 20 years or so, name checking all the teachers I knew over the course of my life and turning my hand and waxing on about, oh who knows what. Or I could just get someone to teach it to me. For real.

And there it is.
That is my experience as well. I have "felt it" before. Oyata Sensei had it among others I have felt. But just not to Dan's degree or understanding. and he's not the only one. Akusawa recently came here and he's on the "Aiki" path. If I have a complaint then it's like the pot calling the kettle black because I used to be one of the "complainers". Having met Dan.. I am not any more.

As someone has already said... We all suck...

Some have a hard time with that. Some see it as an opportunity to go beyond Waza and experience (someday with hard practice) what O' Sensei was talking about.

Dan makes that choice an easy one. You don't have to "steal" anything from him.

William Hazen
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Old 12-21-2013, 02:23 AM   #46
Kevin Leavitt
 
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Re: Musings on a Hawaii IP Seminar

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William Hazen wrote: View Post
Can you be more specific about who is being dishonest or exaggerating? How about someone who "went crazy" over their "master" being attacked? I can't seem to find any post that matches your "observation".

William Hazen
I won't speak for Demetrio, and I will also not name people as I don't see how that contributes to a productive conversation about a 5 year olds level.

However, if the shoe fits wear it.

Here is the issue. It is all dealing with inference. It is something we all need to be careful of, IMO. First, we need to all realize that we are unwillingly bound by own experiences. Whatever they may be. These experiences limit our ability to see things clearly and for what they really are.

When we are presented with new information or experiences that do not confirm our past ones, we will experience dissonance. Yes, even if it is something that we WANT to experience, such as the case is with IS. Many have wanted that experience for years, but sounds like until Dan arrived, that they did not experience on the level that was acceptable or that was reproducible.

So, I think the biggest step is to recognize this in yourself. So, I have no problem with some one stating "I've studied Aikido for 20 years, and this stuff works and affects my actions in this way". A very precise and constructive statement that we can form an intelligent conversation around.

To do anything other than that is complete conjecture, theory, and really only a hypothesis. What Demetrio calls "dishonest and exaggeration". Which really that is what it is. You are being dishonest AND you ARE exaggerating as you are commenting on something that is outside of your area of experiences.

So, you could observe Dan pass a Triangle Pass of a "BJJer". That in a one time observation and yes you can form a hypothesis around that event that says, "Hey I think this has some use in BJJ." However, if you don't do BJJ, or you do not see a repeat study, then you cannot conclude that it is now gospel. In Mr Goldsbury's World, they have something called "Peer Review" for a reason, and we have not seen that.

What we do have is limited vignettes with various people, most of which remain "unnamed", who's skill level we cannot ascertain, that participate in one seminar, that do not talk bout their experiences.

This does not help us. It does not give constructive feedback and it does not allow for productive conversations. It is simply testimony mostly by people that frankly are outside of their area of expertise if you ask me.

I can understand the phenomenon. The Aikido community is ripe for the picking. Most of us, myself included, were attracted to this art based on a promise of "something different" than the ordinary. We were promised insights, a better way to martially do stuff, internal strength, spirituality, etc, etc. In doing so, we were required to set aside our paradigms and the past experiences in order to open up to this.

It is necessary for us to do this in order to grow. However, we must not set aside everything, and we must not once again turn over wholesale our body of critical thought and mind. I think we should also be willing to find new measures maybe at the same time. It is a lot to retool. If you return to the old ways of measuring things, you will get stuck in the same old rut, except you have new ways of doing that!

So, if you say it will work in BJJ, you'd damn well better be a BJJ, and I don't mean a blue or even a purple belt. Your lineage had better be clear. I want to see your tournament record, and I want to see film of you doing something different against a comparable BJJer. That IMO constitutes Peer review.

If you can't then don't talk about it. Just don't talk about it. It doesn't do anybody any good!

If you say it works in fighting, well then I want to see how you do that as well...same type of peer review.

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Old 12-21-2013, 04:56 AM   #47
Demetrio Cereijo
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Re: Musings on a Hawaii IP Seminar

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Kevin Leavitt wrote: View Post
I won't speak for Demetrio
But you have expressed what I was trying to convey better than I am able to. Thanks.

That said, lets go back on track. I can wait for Mr Harden to confirn, deny or ellaborate on post #15 statement when (and if) we meet in person.

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Old 12-21-2013, 09:39 AM   #48
Keith Larman
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Re: Musings on a Hawaii IP Seminar

Just fwiw... I get where everyone is coming from here. Whenever people start dropping the "this works against..." you always have to consider the source and should remain skeptical. I've been to seminars and I've seen guys who in my years cross training have struck me as quite intense and well trained in a variety of arts find it difficult to deal with guys like Dan. I have little question about the value of the stuff having done those varieties of arts, but I never got past mid-level BJJ myself (a spinal issue and getting older sucks) myself. And my judo was a few years as a young man, also still in the mid ranks. And then dabbling in a variety of other arts. But it always ends up with "do I really know, do I really understand, do I really have a valid point of reference?" And it is really hard to make that claim in a sort of academic way.

So... I think folk like Demetrio are perfectly justified in asking the questions. But honestly, my experience directly in working with Dan is like trying to throw a brick building. Or a Buick. But who knows -- I could be deluded as well. So what I tell folk myself is get hands-on yourself. And try what you want to try. And push it. And see how it goes. And frankly I love to watch that stuff. So far I've been going back to Dan since what I've seen has been confirmation that there's something there. But I also have no illusions about strength, training, youth, etc. all being powerful stuff that upset the apple cart. Hell, I'm in my fifties. And Dan is as well. And it sucks getting old.

Anyway I guess I'm just rambling at this point. I watch these discussions with some degree of amusement. They've happened before and so far most who've taken the step of hitting a seminar (myself included) end up saying "well, that's some stuff I can use". It ain't magic. It ain't easy. But I'm under no illusion that it's the only way or even the best way for everyone. And frankly I've never heard Dan, even on his most bombastic times say it's the best way for everyone. Sure, he believes in what he's doing just as it is quite clear that Demetrio feels the same way about his own approach.

Anyway, open mind, get on the mat, train and "ask" your questions with hands crossed. I really don't see further discussion of this same stuff resolving anything because, well, IHTBF. Sorry. But frankly the same is true in my experience in BJJ. And Judo. Good judo. And frankly I see tons of overlap. And *for me*, I'd rather continue going out side my own world and seeing what other folk do. And get my ass handed to me now and again. And in going out I also find where I am with others in the workshops and get a reality check on my own advancement -- no super magic "he's my sensei so down I go" powers work there...

Have a wonderful day, folks. And a sincere wish to all for a wonderful holiday season. Hug the spouses, hug the kids, hug the family, hug the friends, and put on the best rear naked choke you can on your training partner...

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Old 12-21-2013, 10:30 AM   #49
Kevin Leavitt
 
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Re: Musings on a Hawaii IP Seminar

Thanks as always Keith! nice words!

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Old 12-21-2013, 01:34 PM   #50
Aikibu
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Re: Musings on a Hawaii IP Seminar

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Kevin Leavitt wrote: View Post
I won't speak for Demetrio, and I will also not name people as I don't see how that contributes to a productive conversation about a 5 year olds level.

However, if the shoe fits wear it.
In Mr Goldsbury's World, they have something called "Peer Review" for a reason, and we have not seen that.

.
Look Kevin...Again I have nothing personal with Demetrio. He makes good points, the same questions I've asked. And I didn't fall off the turnip truck yesterday. I work in a field that requires "Peer Reviews" at every stage of the process. ( EW Development for the NAVY... yes I am a nerd. ) And yes my 35+ (or 40 I can't remember LOL ) years of experience counts for something. But it is still just my experience. If that has taught me anything it is that I should be sceptical of any claim of Martial Prowess on the internet.

So in answer to that statement who is we? You and a few others? Well...Simple...Bring the best BJJ person you know to Dan's next Seminar in your area. Make sure they have an open mind, and get your questions answered in less than a couple of minutes.

He's coming out in March and I am inviting Top Level Instructors in BJJ, MMA, Bagua, Boxing (yes Dan works with Boxers), Kung Fu San Soo, and various Aikido practices. That's what Dan wants. He's stated that he wants Top Level people at his workshops not just us "little people" (LOL) so that they can see the value and benefit of what he teaches, and hopefully his practice will spread through them to their students.

In the meantime... Suggesting that we have some kind of "Peer Review" process every time someone posts a personal experience is not the solution.; As my friend Ellis says (he coined the phrase for me IMHO) "It Had to be Felt".

Sua Sponte Sir and HAPPY HOLIDAYS to all.

WIlliam Hazen

Last edited by Aikibu : 12-21-2013 at 01:38 PM.
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