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Old 12-11-2013, 05:09 PM   #1
Demetrio Cereijo
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Jukka O. Lampila - Empty Force

This is what happens when Ki masters and skeptics are in the same room.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t6XldR7pCFI

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Old 12-12-2013, 05:11 AM   #2
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Re: Jukka O. Lampila - Empty Force

An extreme example, but it illustrates my point I was trying to make on the Aikijiujitsu thread concerning measures and criteria.

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Old 12-12-2013, 09:34 AM   #3
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Re: Jukka O. Lampila - Empty Force

Yeah, that stuff is just dumb. I am due to go out and level set some of my own assumptions again.

I actually appreciate how the "skeptics" were still reasonably respectful in questioning the assumptions. I am as much about respecting someone's house as the next guy, but yeah, opening the door to questions about what works in self-defense based on dumb extrapolations - that shit should be squashed.

Last edited by Budd : 12-12-2013 at 09:38 AM.
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Old 12-12-2013, 11:02 AM   #4
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Re: Jukka O. Lampila - Empty Force

That has been the big take away for me in the last few weeks really. That is, introspection and constantly looking to make sure I am not developing self confirming habits and becoming a "self licking ice cream cone".

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Old 12-12-2013, 12:46 PM   #5
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Re: Jukka O. Lampila - Empty Force

Well, it was one of the things I liked best about having my little "intro" class that I was doing up here through Community Ed as I'd usually get people on either end of the spectrum with either having already black belts in something else versus people that had never done anything and therefore had no preconceived notions.
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Old 12-12-2013, 02:41 PM   #6
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Re: Jukka O. Lampila - Empty Force

Quote:
Demetrio Cereijo wrote: View Post
This is what happens when Ki masters and skeptics are in the same room.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t6XldR7pCFI
i see what he did wrong there. he should have wear all white. everyone knows that white is better for ki conduction. dark color is for the sith, where they zap you with taser instead of ki ball.

as a side note, i wonder what sort of people are his students. would be an interesting psycho analysis study of those folks. even more curious is where to find them, because i need to remake myself (sort of like Madona remade herself ...into what i still had no idea) into the some sort of Grand Vizier where i would call myself "Phi the White" and need those sort of folks for slaves.... i meant acolytes.

"budo is putting on cold, wet, sweat stained gi with a smile and a snarl" - your truly
http://charlotteaikikai.org
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Old 12-12-2013, 03:27 PM   #7
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Re: Jukka O. Lampila - Empty Force

I was wondering the same to. How do you find or develop a group of people that suspend a degree of rationality and believe that they are really being influenced in this manner. I mean it is real because they believe it. I was wondering the same thing from a psychological perspective.

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Old 12-12-2013, 03:32 PM   #8
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Re: Jukka O. Lampila - Empty Force

Quote:
Demetrio Cereijo wrote: View Post
This is what happens when Ki masters and skeptics are in the same room.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t6XldR7pCFI
No where in the whole video is Ki mentioned, not once. Nor is Ki referred to on his web site. Whatever that guy was trying to demonstrate it had nothing to do with Ki. Ki isn't "empty force".

Ron

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Old 12-12-2013, 04:27 PM   #9
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Re: Jukka O. Lampila - Empty Force

Hi Guys,
This video makes me wonder how any person can believe such nonsense.I think some people suspend common sense and quite frankly get taken for a ride by guys like Jukka.Total rubbish, gives the wrong impression of Aikido. Cheers, Joe.
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Old 12-12-2013, 04:56 PM   #10
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Re: Jukka O. Lampila - Empty Force

Quote:
Ron Ragusa wrote: View Post
No where in the whole video is Ki mentioned, not once. Nor is Ki referred to on his web site. Whatever that guy was trying to demonstrate it had nothing to do with Ki. Ki isn't "empty force".

Ron
Well.... "empty force" is a manifestation of Ki; Jukka is, I've been told, Aikido Nidan (Hikitsuchi lineage) and he claims he is doing the real thing as intended by O Sensei.

Maybe he and you have different deffinitions for the tem 'Ki'.

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Old 12-12-2013, 06:09 PM   #11
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Re: Jukka O. Lampila - Empty Force

Quote:
Demetrio Cereijo wrote: View Post
Maybe he and you have different deffinitions for the tem 'Ki'.
Undoubtedly.

Ron

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Old 12-13-2013, 10:57 AM   #12
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Re: Jukka O. Lampila - Empty Force

Quote:
Kevin Leavitt wrote: View Post
How do you find or develop a group of people that suspend a degree of rationality and believe that they are really being influenced in this manner. I mean it is real because they believe it. I was wondering the same thing from a psychological perspective.
http://dandjurdjevic.blogspot.com.es...n-martial.html

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Old 12-17-2013, 08:51 AM   #13
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Re: Jukka O. Lampila - Empty Force

Official video of the seminar

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KJ5beJRof5w

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Old 12-17-2013, 01:33 PM   #14
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Re: Jukka O. Lampila - Empty Force

This is an interesting video to form a discussion about methodology around.

I'll withhold judgement about the value of this system or training until I know more about his endstates and goals. It could be that his methods work just fine. From his comments on the video, it is hard to tell what his endstates are. I assume he is successful simply based on the fact that he can have a roomfull of people attend a seminar for at least the length of the sample video.

So, what are his endstates? it is something about opening your heart and good things happen to you or something like that. I am not too clear, maybe someone who knows more about this than me can elaborate.

It could be that this training is able to do many things for the people that study this. Clearly they seem to like it and there seems to be a community built around a mutual/shared experience of some sort.

So, we'd have to know first what it is that he is accomplishing and talk to his students to figure out how it has benefited them. That is the big take away for me.

As a martial system, I'd say it is pretty poor based on the observation of the two videos Demetrio has posted. I'd say it does absolutely nothing of value that I would walk in the door for. But, what does that matter to me or what really does my opinion matter.

If he professed that it was a martial art and he wanted to demonstrate that, I'd then walk in with my criteria and methods for testing that and then see how he was able to address those issues.

Other than that, we'd have to spend more time really getting to the core of what he is creating. My guess is it is somewhat ambiguous and the followers are quite okay with that!

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Old 12-17-2013, 02:09 PM   #15
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Re: Jukka O. Lampila - Empty Force

This is the version of one of the attending skeptics:

Hi guys,

The spanish organizer thought I wasn't yet mentally and open minded prepared for EFO, but I was finally allowed to attend the demonstration because Jukka Lampila personally invited me via Facebook.

So, we came together 6 skeptics to the seminar, it was supposed to be 30 minutes long, but lastly reached 2h. Lot of people asked questions and verbally disputed EFO's claims, but the ones who on december 6th physically interacted with Jukka were spanish Kyusho instructor Raśl Merino, Skeptic 1, me, Skeptic 2 and Skeptic 3.

The demonstration began with Jukka Lampila stating that if you open your heart, you could neutralize any attacker with harmful intentions. In fact, the more aggressive is the attacker, much easily EFO affects him. So, Raśl Merino first pushes his shoulder as 'being friendly', and nothing happens. But when Raśl is asked to push Jukka with 'angry' intentions, then Jukka guided a little bit Merino's arm and shortly sent him flying with no visible technique. He repeated this a couple of times, including just kindly placing his hand over Merino's chest when he was on the ground, being Merino completely unable to move or stand up.

Another EFO display was just shaking hands with Merino and 'opening his heart', quickly Merino falling down and feeling with 'no worries'.

Thereafter Skeptic 1 asks if EFO works with everyone, asking Jukka to test it with him. Lampila put his hand on Skeptic 1's chest and after a while says his energy is somehow blocked and EFO could not work. Anyway Skeptic 1 insists and Jukka ask him to push with 'intention'. Jukka then tried the same moves he made with Raśl Merino but nothing happens and Skeptic 1 keeps pushing one time and another. Jukka continues attempting to execute his EFO but Skeptic 1 doesn't fall, moreover, he does some fake punches to show Jukka how he could strike him during the process.

Jukka claimed again Skeptic 1's energy was stagnant, and then tried with me. He put his hans on my chest and noticed my heart beating speedily (yeah, a bit nervous when being the focus of attention...) and said my heart was 'closed' and EFO wouldn't work with me. I asked him to try anyway the pushing exercise but then Skeptic 2 starts asking how could EFO work if you don't know about the emotional state of the attacker.

After some discussion Jukka asks Skeptic 2 to push him, and Skeptic 2 pushes Jukka a few times but with a 'snap effect'. Jukka stops him asking him to push only in his left shoulder and with a deep push, so the 'intention' could remain. Skeptic 2 then argues nobody will push like he was asking for. Jukka said it wouldn't work with snaps because the 'intention' gets lost, but then Skeptic 2 concludes EFO could not work VS snap punches like a simple Jab, so EFO only works with no trained people.

Conclusion: we were trying to check if EFO worked with skeptics and it didn't. Once said that, the Finnish team started talking between them, probably thinking how to answer our arguments.

After that they changed their speech: EFO wasn't a self-defense system 'at all', it was a method to improve people's life and help them being better persons. Even all their videos and website are all about an attacker being controlled by Jukka's EFO, thinking about it as a Martial Art or self-defense system was a wrong and unfair deduction (lol).

Skeptic 3 then stood up and claimed he has no experience in martial arts and he was not even in good shape. He punched a training bag and asked if Jukka, probably the most powerful Empty Force master in the world, would be able to stop some noob punches. Jukka asked of course he could: if Skeptic 3 attacked, he for sure wouldn't be able to reach him. Then Skeptic 3 asks to try it and Jukka answers no. When asked 'why?' Jukka answered 'I don't know'.

Trying again to avoid a true self-defence test more than pushing, other Finnish students started saying EFO was not designed to show who had the biggest Ego, and that EFO was not about fighting.

Close to the end, a Finnish student recognized in a private discussion that throwing people flying was just marketing to attract people, being EFO just some kind of healing and personal improving method.


We've got some interesting videos with Raśl Merino being EFOed as Jukka's Uke and Jukka's attempts with the skeptics. Don't expect a 'Kiai Master VS MMA' like video because it's not. It would not be something spectacular but I think the video shows how EFO fails.

All answers the Finnish team gave about EFO were contrary to all the principles of Physics, and even logically incoherent. I'm very sure they were never asked critically because they were improvising the answers and reasonings, being his last claims 'it's a matter of opinion'.

The day after this demonstration, the spanish organizers admitted EFO maybe was not the proper tool for self-defence situations, but nowadays they continue trusting in EFO as a way of spiritual grow and complement to their martial practice. They will also make a video about their Saturday 7th seminar, were supposedly EFO worked with at least 60% of the assistants.

We are now working on our video, when finished I will post it here.


Bold mine.

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Old 12-17-2013, 02:44 PM   #16
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Re: Jukka O. Lampila - Empty Force

Quote:
Thereafter Skeptic 1 asks if EFO works with everyone, asking Jukka to test it with him. Lampila put his hand on Skeptic 1's chest and after a while says his energy is somehow blocked and EFO could not work.
I could have predicted that this would be the reasoning. I have attended various seminars over the years and have been charged guilty as being "unreceptive" or "blocking energy". I was told by one shihan/soke that I need to learn to be more receptive that all the blocking was doing me harm and causing me to be unhealthy.

The claim to spirituality and personal improvement is a hard one to tackle as it is ambiguous and really not measurable except by a survey of member opinions as to if they felt more spiritual or that it led to more happiness, health etc. So, as a practice for those things...sure if this is what gets you going!

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Old 12-17-2013, 03:14 PM   #17
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Re: Jukka O. Lampila - Empty Force

Just fwiw, this has nothing to do with what I consider legitimate internal strength (neijin) . On the other hand it is fairly common and I think aikido has plenty of this kind of cultish nonsense, not at all confused as to why you'd run into it.

Alfonso Adriasola
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Old 12-17-2013, 03:41 PM   #18
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Re: Jukka O. Lampila - Empty Force

I don't think Demetrio or anyone else mentioned anything about IS. But since you bring it up...what are the similarities or differences of what is exhibited here versus legitimate IS. What exactly is legitimate internal strength and how do we distinguish between legitimate and illegitimate Internal Strength? that is, how do we measure or test? against what criteria is it appropriate to say one thing is legitimate and something else is not?

I am not saying this to prove or disprove anything anyone is doing. But I think it is important to discuss criteria in a constructive manner with critical thought...not as a free for all that gets all stupid and emotional like in the past!

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Old 12-17-2013, 04:25 PM   #19
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Re: Jukka O. Lampila - Empty Force

so , huge caveat , that this is IMO, but.

Internal strength in the martial arts does not require supernatural powers, does not enable teleportation , telekinesis , lighting stuff on fire , flying...

Its the ability to use weight / ground reaction without beign obvious. Whole body (non isolated) movement that can be hard to spot , motivated by the core of your body, which transfers leg and trunk power to the extremities. It has to do with balance and body integrity, it requires a lot of work to achieve enough conditioning to be able to manifest *you wont get it by having someone whisper the secret to you* . Internal strength can be used to manipulate inanimate objects; it doesn't require collusion with anything , you can punch a wall with internal strength and hurt yourself if you want to. A lot of asian martial arts refer to elements of internal strength, but the spectrum of ability is pretty wide, and the methods for cultivation are likewise pretty diverse. There are a bunch of typical demonstrations (bending spear in the throat, lying between bricks and having someone smash them on you, etc ) that are legitimate (if impractical).. and so on.

I think you can peel all the cultural trappings off IS and still end up with unsual body skills, so legitimate doesnt mean member of a group or believer in some religion or anything like that.

Anyone else care to chip in?

Alfonso Adriasola
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Old 12-17-2013, 04:34 PM   #20
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Re: Jukka O. Lampila - Empty Force

Wait a minute....

How this thread has gone about IS? You people are really obsessed.

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Old 12-17-2013, 04:39 PM   #21
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Re: Jukka O. Lampila - Empty Force

Quote:
Demetrio Cereijo wrote: View Post
Wait a minute....

How this thread has gone about IS? You people are really obsessed.
I saw something about Ki masters? You think that Qi / Ki is not I/S related? Ok.

But guilty as charged.

Alfonso Adriasola
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Old 12-17-2013, 04:39 PM   #22
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Re: Jukka O. Lampila - Empty Force

Quote:
Kevin Leavitt wrote: View Post
I could have predicted that this would be the reasoning. I have attended various seminars over the years and have been charged guilty as being "unreceptive" or "blocking energy". I was told by one shihan/soke that I need to learn to be more receptive that all the blocking was doing me harm and causing me to be unhealthy.
Theres is nothing like instilling guilt and fear to gain complliance.

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Old 12-17-2013, 04:43 PM   #23
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Re: Jukka O. Lampila - Empty Force

Quote:
Alfonso Adriasola wrote: View Post
so , huge caveat , that this is IMO, but.

Internal strength in the martial arts does not require supernatural powers, does not enable teleportation , telekinesis , lighting stuff on fire , flying...

Its the ability to use weight / ground reaction without beign obvious. Whole body (non isolated) movement that can be hard to spot , motivated by the core of your body, which transfers leg and trunk power to the extremities. It has to do with balance and body integrity, it requires a lot of work to achieve enough conditioning to be able to manifest *you wont get it by having someone whisper the secret to you* . Internal strength can be used to manipulate inanimate objects; it doesn't require collusion with anything , you can punch a wall with internal strength and hurt yourself if you want to. A lot of asian martial arts refer to elements of internal strength, but the spectrum of ability is pretty wide, and the methods for cultivation are likewise pretty diverse. There are a bunch of typical demonstrations (bending spear in the throat, lying between bricks and having someone smash them on you, etc ) that are legitimate (if impractical).. and so on.

I think you can peel all the cultural trappings off IS and still end up with unsual body skills, so legitimate doesnt mean member of a group or believer in some religion or anything like that.

Anyone else care to chip in?
Hi Alfonzo,
When my missus orders me to do the housework , mow the lawn and do the dishes, is she using I.S when she moves an inanimate object [namely me ]?Cheers, Joe.
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Old 12-17-2013, 04:45 PM   #24
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Re: Jukka O. Lampila - Empty Force

Quote:
Joe Curran wrote: View Post
Hi Alfonzo,
When my missus orders me to do the housework , mow the lawn and do the dishes, is she using I.S when she moves an inanimate object [namely me ]?Cheers, Joe.
My wife does the same , and had no training at all. I don't think it qualifies; but it is undeniably stronger than my "internal strength"

PS - I can lift a cup of coffee with it though

Alfonso Adriasola
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Old 12-17-2013, 05:00 PM   #25
Demetrio Cereijo
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Re: Jukka O. Lampila - Empty Force

Quote:
Alfonso Adriasola wrote: View Post
I saw something about Ki masters? You think that Qi / Ki is not I/S related? Ok.
I'd say EFO is a different expression of Ki.

From what I've gathered Jukka's EFO combines his experience in Aikido (Hikitsuchi, Blaize and maybe Shapiro) and Kyusho Aiki Jutsu (a system headed by anoter finnish: Toni Kauhanen).

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