Welcome to AikiWeb Aikido Information
AikiWeb: The Source for Aikido Information
AikiWeb's principal purpose is to serve the Internet community as a repository and dissemination point for aikido information.

Sections
home
aikido articles
columns

Discussions
forums
aikiblogs

Databases
dojo search
seminars
image gallery
supplies
links directory

Reviews
book reviews
video reviews
dvd reviews
equip. reviews

News
submit
archive

Miscellaneous
newsletter
rss feeds
polls
about

Follow us on



Home > AikiWeb Aikido Forums
Go Back   AikiWeb Aikido Forums > General

Hello and thank you for visiting AikiWeb, the world's most active online Aikido community! This site is home to over 22,000 aikido practitioners from around the world and covers a wide range of aikido topics including techniques, philosophy, history, humor, beginner issues, the marketplace, and more.

If you wish to join in the discussions or use the other advanced features available, you will need to register first. Registration is absolutely free and takes only a few minutes to complete so sign up today!

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old 12-11-2013, 07:44 AM   #26
Cliff Judge
Location: Kawasaki, Kanagawa
Join Date: Sep 2005
Posts: 1,267
Japan
Offline
Re: What Kata Isn't

Gavin,

The story goes, that Ueshiba left town quick when Takeda arrived in Osaka. So I don't know about them both teaching at the same time.

Are you with the Takumakai? I had heard that they organized their syllabus to line up with Tokimune Takeda's in the late 20th century.
  Reply With Quote
Old 12-11-2013, 10:33 PM   #27
Gavin Slater
Location: Brisbane
Join Date: Nov 2009
Posts: 33
Australia
Offline
Re: What Kata Isn't

Hi Cliff,

We may never know for sure what the story is. Most of the time when I asked someone, they just say Ueshiba Sensei left 'unexpectedly in the morning'. I was never told he left imediately just unexpectedly.

I got told Hisa Sensei told Ueshiba Sensei that this old guy is here saying he is your teacher, then he dissapeared into his room and never came out.Ueshiba Sensei had his training in the mornings, and Takeda taught in the evenings. This happened for a week or so, then one morning Ueshiba Sensei was not there. The Asahi workers turned up for training, but he had left unexpectedly without telling anyone.

I was a student of Amatsu Sensei.I have also trained with some other Kyoju Dairi from Hisa Sensei,

Gav
  Reply With Quote
Old 12-12-2013, 09:03 AM   #28
Cliff Judge
Location: Kawasaki, Kanagawa
Join Date: Sep 2005
Posts: 1,267
Japan
Offline
Re: What Kata Isn't

At risk of drifting the thread into another sub-forum, I would like to try to see if we can explore the differences between my experiences of Aikido and Daito ryu training and yours to see if we can get some clarity on this question of kata vs waza as training methodology.

In mainline Daito ryu, there should really be no question that training is based on kata. There is a bit of divergence from the koryu model as understood around here in that you don't keep the students segregated with seniors playing the role of uchite and junior playing the role of shite. But they are kata nontheless - they are organized into series, and were given names (apparently the modern names were given by Tokimune). There are some very practical and usable techniques contained in the kata but the kata themselves are not meant to teach "here is what you should do when you are attacked in this manner." The kata are vehicles for studying techniques, but also deeper principles such as timing, distance, how to break balance on contact, how to maintain control, etc. A trained student who was mugged would not manifest a kata.

When we train Daito ryu we work on these kata and seek the sense that we are doing them correctly. The early-level ones, of the ikkajo series, are brilliant for giving you feedback that you did or did not perform them correctly, even if you achieved the result you wanted. (Kondo Sensei's videos produced with Stan Pranin demonstrate and explain these if anybody is curious.) Clap in, warm up, try to perfect kata, clap out.

In Aikido - I am not sure I properly represent "mainstream Aikido" as I am ASU but I believe we actually follow a model that comes from the Aikikai Hombu dojo after WWII and before Ueshiba's passing. The instructor gets onto the mat and everyone claps in. The instructor spends the class attempting to get the students to improve their expression of some principle. Usually they have something in mind that they talk about or work on and by the middle of the class they see what the class is doing well or not, and have begun to adjust how they are approaching the principle. The vehicle for exploring the principles du jour is waza. And the waza will be performed slightly differently every time, because they are being used as frames to talk about something broader in scope.

What is actually happening is a kata is being created on the fly, demonstrated a few times to the students, and then everyone works on it for awhile before the next one. An example might be that, say, the teacher starts the class thinking, what about getting off the line? So we'll start with doing kotegaeshi from a punch. Then the instructor sees that people are getting way off the line and not breaking their partner's balance at all, so she will use shihonage to demonstrate taking uke's balance and keeping their posture broken in such a way that they don't get it back. Then maybe the whole class goes in that direction. The instructor spends the hour or two trying to "tune" the class a bit, like a traditional chinese acupuncturist reading pulses and then applying needles or moxha, then checking pulses again to see if anything has changed.

Gavin, do you have any thoughts to share about the general mode of your Takumakai training? I'm thinking it is maybe more like kata training than waza-based traiining as I see them?
  Reply With Quote
Old 12-12-2013, 08:43 PM   #29
hughrbeyer
Dojo: Shobu Aikido of Boston
Location: Peterborough, NH
Join Date: Aug 2010
Posts: 653
United_States
Offline
Re: What Kata Isn't

Quote:
Cliff Judge wrote: View Post
In Aikido - I am not sure I properly represent "mainstream Aikido" as I am ASU but I believe we actually follow a model that comes from the Aikikai Hombu dojo after WWII and before Ueshiba's passing. The instructor gets onto the mat and everyone claps in. The instructor spends the class attempting to get the students to improve their expression of some principle. Usually they have something in mind that they talk about or work on and by the middle of the class they see what the class is doing well or not, and have begun to adjust how they are approaching the principle. The vehicle for exploring the principles du jour is waza. And the waza will be performed slightly differently every time, because they are being used as frames to talk about something broader in scope.
Huh. That describes very well what we usually do in a totally different part of the ASU (Bill Gleason). I wonder if this originates with Saotome or goes back to Yamaguchi? How do Yamaguchi's other students organize a class?

Evolution doesn't prove God doesn't exist, any more than hammers prove carpenters don't exist.
  Reply With Quote
Old 12-12-2013, 10:10 PM   #30
Gavin Slater
Location: Brisbane
Join Date: Nov 2009
Posts: 33
Australia
Offline
Re: What Kata Isn't

Hi,

I cant speak for the Takumakai, I can only speak for Amatsu Sensei. It might be hard to compare, but I can tell you what it was like to train with Amatsu Sensei. Amatsu Sensei taught the soden, which you will know has 11 books. I dont think you necessarily start at the first book either. Sometimes it was because Amatsu Sensei was working on a particular book himself.

The 1st and 3rd books are grouped, the 2nd and 4th books are grouped. The 5th book is its own group, the 6th is its own group, and 7-9 books are grouped seperately. 10 and 11 are grouped as they are Hisa Sensei's waza, variations of all of the other books.

There were no names of the waza, and I never heard the term kata ever used it was always 'such and such waza' eg ikkajo waza,menkyo waza, ura waza etc. Some of these were in the books, some were not. Then there were also Takeda Sensei's version of some of the first 6 books, there are no photos of these as they decided not to retake photos.

Amatsu Sensei said there is no such thing as secrets in Daito Ryu and you are taught the 'secrets' as the first thing, its just whether you understand them or not.

Although the soden had no names you might hear 'This is an ikkajo waza', or he would say this is the first fundamental item, or second fundamental item, so you had 1-4 kajo etc. You also had the most fundamental item in Daito Ryu is..., which changed at will.

So if I had to sum up training in Daito Ryu with Amatsu Sensei, it would go to training, then go the pub and listen to things you don't understand at the time.

Gav
  Reply With Quote
Old 12-13-2013, 08:41 AM   #31
Cliff Judge
Location: Kawasaki, Kanagawa
Join Date: Sep 2005
Posts: 1,267
Japan
Offline
Re: What Kata Isn't

Quote:
Hugh Beyer wrote: View Post
Huh. That describes very well what we usually do in a totally different part of the ASU (Bill Gleason). I wonder if this originates with Saotome or goes back to Yamaguchi? How do Yamaguchi's other students organize a class?
In my opinion this goes back to the post-war Hombu dojo. When Osensei was in town, he'd get on the mat some days and manifest some Takemusu Aiki, and everyone would try to follow along and figure out what he was doing. That seems to be how things are done in the regular classes at Hombu these days too. It also fits in with how Aikido embu are conducted - the Shihan gets up there and manifests some Aikido. When you see a Daito ryu embu, they seem to be demonstrating kata.
  Reply With Quote
Old 12-13-2013, 08:55 AM   #32
Cliff Judge
Location: Kawasaki, Kanagawa
Join Date: Sep 2005
Posts: 1,267
Japan
Offline
Re: What Kata Isn't

Thanks Gavin!

Quote:
Gavin Slater wrote: View Post
Amatsu Sensei said there is no such thing as secrets in Daito Ryu and you are taught the 'secrets' as the first thing, its just whether you understand them or not.
So truth. Such liking.

Quote:
Gavin Slater wrote: View Post
Although the soden had no names you might hear 'This is an ikkajo waza', or he would say this is the first fundamental item, or second fundamental item, so you had 1-4 kajo etc. You also had the most fundamental item in Daito Ryu is..., which changed at will.

So if I had to sum up training in Daito Ryu with Amatsu Sensei, it would go to training, then go the pub and listen to things you don't understand at the time.

Gav
This sounds very close to kata training. I guess the question is, are the waza meant to be used as they are? Or are they meant as vehicles for developing more general skills? If the former, that goes straight to what you mentioned Ellis said about the techniques seeming too elaborate and complex for combat application. I would strongly suspect they are tools for developing general skills which would express themselves spontaneously under duress - i.e. to teach your body and mind a martial language with which you hopefully become fluent.

(And hey, maybe Daito ryu has too many darned kata / waza for that. Maybe somebody decided to cut it down to essentials at some point and things went sideways due to a misunderstanding of how kata should be taught....)

I think it must have been very interesting to be party to a teacher who was teaching while actively researching / studying his own art. And pubs. I am a big fan of those.
  Reply With Quote
Old 12-14-2013, 12:15 AM   #33
Gavin Slater
Location: Brisbane
Join Date: Nov 2009
Posts: 33
Australia
Offline
Re: What Kata Isn't

Hi,

I think the main problem with trying to compare aikido training, with for example daito ryu aikijujutsu is if you are an aikido student you have a sub conscious need for the story to end with Ueshiba Sensei having 'aiki', because you are studying aikido. If the 'story' says that Ueshiba Sensei did not have aiki there is a huge obstacle for the aikido student to overcome. When really it is just a story in Daito Ryu.

Its like we are casting a movie lets call it Daito Ryu at the Asahi. Lets set the scene its at a newspaper, where this bunch of experienced martial artists are trained by this expert master with strange skills in a martial art with no names. The students think this is so wonderful, they are converts. Everyone who felt it thought it was amazing, they told all of their friends, and experienced martial artists came from far and wide. It was the talk of Japan.

Then one day an old man with aiki turned up saying he was the expert masters teacher, what you are doing will get you no where! For these reasons! 1,2,3. I have not taught him enough, you will now learn off me! The experienced sumo and judoka were very sceptical, yet when they saw this old mans strange techniques they were mesmorized. He said it is an old martial art, that was so secret it was never written down. The old man was on another level.

In the movie the student is played by Hisa Sensei, Martial arts instructor one is played by Ueshiba Sensei, the old man with aiki is played by Takeda Sensei. Now when you watch this movie you might want Ueshiba Sensei to play the old man with aiki, or rewrite some parts, but unfortunately you cant because Takeda Sensei is writing this particular movie and its being told as narrative by the student. So in the movie we have facts, dialogue between all 3, teachings 1,2,3, we have sub plots, we have fiction. You are told everything in the movie is very important and you must take notice of everything, but some people still dont take notice, and dont really like the movie as they really want Ueshiba Sensei to have aiki, but they are watching the wrong movie they have to wait for the sequel.

re the waza vs kata. Im not really sure about which is correct, they dont have a name, does a kata have to have a name? one waza can teach unlimited kajo.

Gav
  Reply With Quote
Old 12-14-2013, 07:22 AM   #34
Cliff Judge
Location: Kawasaki, Kanagawa
Join Date: Sep 2005
Posts: 1,267
Japan
Offline
Re: What Kata Isn't

Hmmm. Well the story, instead of having anything to do with Ueshiba "having Aiki," could be about whether he was properly teaching the kata of Daito ryu, or whether he had started off in his own direction. I.e. it could have been all about externals and nothing to do with internals! But who is to say?

I wonder about what the actual scene at the Asahi Shimbun was like back then. One of the things I have read is that Hisa invited Ueshiba down because the Asahi Shimbun was under threat of being taken over by radicals who wanted to seize the presses and print their own version of the news. If that is the case, then I can't see the students at Asashi being in the mood for being "wowed" by amazing martial skills. They'd be looking for things they could use in the next days or hours if they were under attack. On the other hand, perhaps they were hoping that when word got out that this famous martial arts instructor was in residence, the radical groups would find the risk to benefit ratio too high to warrant an attack. Either way, I think, Ueshiba would be incentivized to break from the traditional structure of Daito ryu and either teach functional waza, or teach in a more open-ended, showy style. The movie looks like the latter. Obviously this is all just speculation on my part.

Kata do not always have names. In some systems, the names of some kata are so unimportant that you just never use them, instead referring to the series of kata.
  Reply With Quote
Old 12-15-2013, 07:06 AM   #35
Gavin Slater
Location: Brisbane
Join Date: Nov 2009
Posts: 33
Australia
Offline
Re: What Kata Isn't

Hi Cliff,

I think there were right wing protests which affected the Newspaper. So Ueshiba Sensei was hired to teach the security team, plus other workers from the newspaper. I think Ueshiba Sensei started to do his own thing, but alot of it is a variation on the soden. He started to do the throw away waza.

I think that was one of the things Takeda Sensei was annoyed about. The story of Takeda arriving and what he said is important in Hisa Senseis Daito ryu. He lectured about Ueshiba, but he also lectured Hisa Sensei. But sometimes the facts about the dojo dont match the story of those lectures as they are Daito Ryu Teachings. So I look at them more like student/teacher/master lectures.

I was told they did randori but not in the daito ryu lessons.

The newspaper (or press) was very important to Takeda Sensei, he liked Journalists very much. I think it is an important part of Hisa Sensei;s Daito Ryu.

Gav
  Reply With Quote
Old 12-15-2013, 10:15 AM   #36
Ellis Amdur
 
Ellis Amdur's Avatar
Location: Seattle
Join Date: May 2003
Posts: 846
Offline
Re: What Kata Isn't

One interesting piece of the jigsaw puzzle is this: Nakakura Kiyoshi described the incident when Takeda Sokaku appeared at the Kobukan, wristlocking a taxi-driver whom he thought over-charged him. Nakakura ran out, paid the taxi-driver, and Takeda demanded to see Ueshiba. Nakakura told him that he was in Osaka. And Takeda turned around and set off for Osaka.

There had been problems for some time. In Admiral Takeshita's notes, some of which are now public, he described a meeting of the supporters of Ueshiba where they discussed "what to do about the problem of Takeda." (These were all high ranking military and politicians). And of course, there were the money problems, and Ueshiba's dual loyalties (actually triple: to Takeda, to Omoto and to himself and his own vision).

At any rate, based on Nakakura's story, Takeda really didn't know what Ueshiba was up to with the Asahi Shinbun - or conceivably even where he was teaching (Ueshiba was teaching at other locale - and in fact, continued to go to Osaka and taught elsewhere, if I recall correctly) - so he simply dropped in and as he saw his due, took over. Remember, he announced that he had heard his student was teaching and he was inferiorly trained (paraphrase) and he would be taking over. He surely would have done so, no matter how good Ueshiba was or was not. Remember, he didn't do this after watching a class.

Anyway, if Nakakura had been more circumspect about his father-in-law's location, history would likely have been different.

  Reply With Quote
Old 12-15-2013, 04:04 PM   #37
Gavin Slater
Location: Brisbane
Join Date: Nov 2009
Posts: 33
Australia
Offline
Re: What Kata Isn't

Hi Ellis,

Amatsu Sensei never said how Takeda Sensei knew that Daito Ryu was being taught. Just that he found out and went to take over. It was like it was important for him personally to teach Daito Ryu in the newspaper to journalists like a pen/sword thing, plus he got paid well.

But I think the question of whether Daito Ryu is kata or waza is very ironic maybe it is both. But what I learnt from Amatsu Sensei was there is no names, and isnt meant to be written down. But then theres the whole daito ryu story being 900 years old, and never being written down. Then there are things thrown in takeda is illitrate to add to the mix.

Gav
  Reply With Quote
Old 12-15-2013, 06:30 PM   #38
Ellis Amdur
 
Ellis Amdur's Avatar
Location: Seattle
Join Date: May 2003
Posts: 846
Offline
Re: What Kata Isn't

Gav - thanks for your note. What Amatsu sensei says certainly conforms to my "myth" - that what is called kata or waza in DR is more like snapshots that others took of Takeda improvising his human origami.

It may well be that, like S. Pranin's thesis that what we call aikido is the 'creation' of Ueshiba K., Tohei, Saito etc., rather than Morihei, then Daito-ryu, too, as we know it , at least, may be the 'creation' of Tokimune, Hisa, Sagawa, Horikawa, Ueshiba and sundry others.

Best
Ellis Amdur

  Reply With Quote
Old 12-15-2013, 11:02 PM   #39
Gavin Slater
Location: Brisbane
Join Date: Nov 2009
Posts: 33
Australia
Offline
Re: What Kata Isn't

Hi Ellis,

I think the fact you hear the story/myth from day one helps obscure it, as its mixed in with facts and probably misdirections. So you might think it has just been invented, or you dont even take notice, or you approach it like a historian and want to check the facts and compare with the story/myth, and start to dispel things but you might miss a good story.

Gav
  Reply With Quote
Old 12-16-2013, 08:25 AM   #40
Cliff Judge
Location: Kawasaki, Kanagawa
Join Date: Sep 2005
Posts: 1,267
Japan
Offline
Re: What Kata Isn't

So what exactly are all of those densho and such that you see in the Takumakai film, and in Mr. Erard's documentary videos? The idea that Daito ryu doesn't have a solid. pre-Sokaku foundation has stopped making sense to me. One of my questions is, why is there all of this documentation involved with the art when the guy who allegedly made it all up was illiterate?
  Reply With Quote
Old 12-16-2013, 09:25 AM   #41
Gary David
 
Gary David's Avatar
Location: Long Beach, CA
Join Date: Jan 2006
Posts: 332
United_States
Offline
Re: What Kata Isn't

Quote:
Cliff Judge wrote: View Post
So what exactly are all of those densho and such that you see in the Takumakai film, and in Mr. Erard's documentary videos? The idea that Daito ryu doesn't have a solid. pre-Sokaku foundation has stopped making sense to me. One of my questions is, why is there all of this documentation involved with the art when the guy who allegedly made it all up was illiterate?
Cliff
Every seminar I have gone to during my many years at Aikido I have watched folks taking notes....notes... Many of the those I saw taking notes years ago are now teaching with others taking notes of what they are seeing....notes to help them remember. Most of those teaching these days are not writing books and there are really very few books from the past.....so how do others remember....notes. I think most of the documentation is just that.....published memories and notes of what was seen, heard and experienced... Of course each of us see, hear and experience differently.
Gary
  Reply With Quote
Old 12-16-2013, 11:52 AM   #42
Ellis Amdur
 
Ellis Amdur's Avatar
Location: Seattle
Join Date: May 2003
Posts: 846
Offline
Re: What Kata Isn't

Cliff - the bushi were government bureaucrats. They documented by nature and inclination. In general, almost every ryu documented themselves - there were densho, notebooks, and the like. It is so axiomatic that the lack of documentation before a certain date leads to the immediate supposition (very strong supposition) that the schools history does not extend before such documentation. As I've discussed in HIPS, the idea that an "otome" school, an official school of a feudal domain, restricted to bushi, who be more secretive, misunderstands the closed ryu. In fact, they were BETTER documented, because they were official. If you've ever perused a ryu document, you can see that an outsider can derive little of value from it. Here's an example - this is Toda-ryu naginatajutsu, with allegedly the same roots as Toda-ha Buko-ryu. I had it translated, I've written a commentary, but the truth is that it is utterly useless to me, other than satisfying a little curiosity. I cannot use any of it. So, there would have been little concern that if the documents of the ryu "got out," that one's enemies could thereby destroy one. The rituals of secrecy regarding such documents were more for the purpose of creating a mindset than hiding WID ('weapons of individual destruction').
Were there exceptions? Yes. There were obscure "family ryu," that didn't document. They were, however, usually far from centers of power. Actually, Toda-ha Buko-ryu may fall in this category and its illustrative. Our first generations are renowned individuals, and then the ryu fell in the hands of a family, the Suneya, that fell from being high ranking warriors under the Odawara Hojo (who lost all power at the end of the Sengoku period) to tax collectors in a very small village. Tax collectors were at the very bottom end of the bushi/goshi class. They were a combination of village head, census taker, and note taker of seditious attitudes. Apparently, there was a Suneya family naginata art. And maybe more. No documentation. The first documents are in the 1860's, when Suneya Ryosuke and his wife Satoo, probably initiated Toda-ha Buko-ryu. Ryosuke is referred to a chuko no so - this means "founder of a renaissance," which is a rather odd locution. The nuance is that he's the founder/creator of something new - BUT - it somehow, we don't know how - has roots in something older. Guess what Takeda Sokaku is referred to in most Japanese writings? Chuko no so.
As I've written in HIPS, I think there is good reason to believe that the roots of Daito-ryu are in Shinmyo-ryu jujutsu, which WAS an otome-ryu of the Aizu-han. Takeda's grandfather was allegedly a master of Inegami Shinmyo-ryu, something that is reasonable to assume - as no records of THAT precede him - that this is his reworking of Shinmyo-ryu. It's also possible that Takeda adopted/incorporated waza from Yoshin-ryu - not that he was a secret student, but that he picked up waza from them. Why? A couple reasons: 1 - Yoshin-ryu was ubiquitous. It was the Gracie jiujitsu of the period - it was everywhere. 2 - Takeda was good friends/running buddies with several of the big dogs of Yoshin-ryu (and there is legitimate reason to believe that Yoshida Kotaro was also Yoshin-ryu educated - hence the use of Yanagi in the character of his own "off-shoot" - both Yo and Yanagi referring to willows - and Yoshida accompanying Takeda in his contacts - here is a photograph - with some of the greats of Yoshin-ryu, as well as Takeda and Yoshida.
It is my understanding that the current makimono/mokuroku were drawn up by Takeda Tokimune. How much input his father had is an interesting question, sort of like how much input Morihei had regarding the changes in the Aikikai post 1950.
Ellis Amdur

  Reply With Quote
Old 12-16-2013, 04:15 PM   #43
Gavin Slater
Location: Brisbane
Join Date: Nov 2009
Posts: 33
Australia
Offline
Re: What Kata Isn't

Hi,

If I was looking for a densho for Daito Ryu that pre-dates Takeda Sensei, I personally wouldn't look for anything that looked like 118 kajo etc, or the soden, or the gen. I would look for an Aizu story told in a narritive by someone, who lived/worked/ruled somewhere, about being taught something. What the story is could be impossible to work out, you would need to read the whole thing, and you would also need the key. So it could seem like a story that has nothing to with aiki, it could be about anything. A journey somewhere. For example Amatsu Sensei told me a story about Hisa sensei and the asahi newspaper, but it wasn't until later I realised it had nothing to do with Hisa Sensei or the Asahi newspaper.

Gav
  Reply With Quote
Old 12-16-2013, 04:46 PM   #44
Gavin Slater
Location: Brisbane
Join Date: Nov 2009
Posts: 33
Australia
Offline
Re: What Kata Isn't

Hi Cliff,

I personally dont think Takeda Sensei made it up (but i dont have a problem if he did), Hisa Sensei did not think that either. It would have to have been made up by an old person who had aiki, or by at least a few other generations. It would be interesting when certain facts about Daito Ryu appeared to see how old Takeda Sensei was. I dont think a young person could come up with some of the teachings, even the first ones.

I think the whole issue is with Daito Ryu is, you have to really think laterally. I had alot of debates with Amatsu Sensei because I didn't like what he was telling me, but after a while I decided that I would just listen and try and logically work out how it could be true, or how it could be false. Then work out what the lesson would be for either.

For me personally an illitrate, teaching a martial art that is not written down, in a newspaper. Thats a lot of irony.

Gav

Last edited by Gavin Slater : 12-16-2013 at 04:49 PM.
  Reply With Quote
Old 12-17-2013, 07:43 AM   #45
Cliff Judge
Location: Kawasaki, Kanagawa
Join Date: Sep 2005
Posts: 1,267
Japan
Offline
Re: What Kata Isn't

Man, I always wind up depressed when I go down this rabbit hole. If there is no continuous stream of kata from before Sokaku Takeda to the present, then aiki might as well be a unicorn. There is no Daito "ryu", because there is no flow. There is no way to be a part of what Takeda or Ueshiba were doing, and they essentially took it with them. The best you can do is pick some type of martial or pseudo-martial training and hypnotize yourself into believing it is Aikido or Daito ryu.
  Reply With Quote
Old 12-17-2013, 10:55 PM   #46
Gavin Slater
Location: Brisbane
Join Date: Nov 2009
Posts: 33
Australia
Offline
Re: What Kata Isn't

Hi Cliff,

Thats why I think it is hard to say what it is. It depends who gave it to you, and whether you have the whole story, and if your story even has unicorns. Amatsu Sensei just talked about the Asahi Dojo alot and how there were two types of Daito Ryu; Ueshiba Ryu and Takeda Ryu and what Hisa Sensei was like.

I asked Amatsu Sensei what was the most important item in Daito Ryu. He said it was the first teaching of Takeda Ryu, he told me dont love Daito Ryu! That is the highest teaching of Takeda Ryu and the first. He told me even before I started training with him. He said everyone who wants to learn Takeda Ryu must know this first teaching before they start and you must tell them Takeda sensei warned it.

So if people want to learn Takeda Ryu (or talk/write about it), they should at least know the first teaching and find a Daito Ryu dojo, its not a secret. Be careful what you 'burn in', you might have it for a long time. But what would Daito Ryu know?

But if you are worrying about unicorns and whether you love them or not, you might be in the right place. I just haven't met any yet.

Gav
  Reply With Quote
Old 12-18-2013, 08:04 AM   #47
Cliff Judge
Location: Kawasaki, Kanagawa
Join Date: Sep 2005
Posts: 1,267
Japan
Offline
Re: What Kata Isn't

Quote:
Gavin Slater wrote: View Post
Hi Cliff,

Thats why I think it is hard to say what it is. It depends who gave it to you, and whether you have the whole story, and if your story even has unicorns. Amatsu Sensei just talked about the Asahi Dojo alot and how there were two types of Daito Ryu; Ueshiba Ryu and Takeda Ryu and what Hisa Sensei was like.

I asked Amatsu Sensei what was the most important item in Daito Ryu. He said it was the first teaching of Takeda Ryu, he told me dont love Daito Ryu! That is the highest teaching of Takeda Ryu and the first. He told me even before I started training with him. He said everyone who wants to learn Takeda Ryu must know this first teaching before they start and you must tell them Takeda sensei warned it.

So if people want to learn Takeda Ryu (or talk/write about it), they should at least know the first teaching and find a Daito Ryu dojo, its not a secret. Be careful what you 'burn in', you might have it for a long time. But what would Daito Ryu know?

But if you are worrying about unicorns and whether you love them or not, you might be in the right place. I just haven't met any yet.

Gav
I do not love Daito ryu. I love chocolate. And my dog.

  Reply With Quote
Old 12-18-2013, 09:09 AM   #48
Gavin Slater
Location: Brisbane
Join Date: Nov 2009
Posts: 33
Australia
Offline
Re: What Kata Isn't

how could you not love that dog.
  Reply With Quote

Please visit our sponsor:

AikiWeb Sponsored Links - Place your Aikido link here for only $10!



Reply


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
052) Aikido Waza IS Kata: Week of September 7, 2009 Marc Abrams External Aikido Blog Posts 14 09-09-2009 07:18 AM
The GREAT kata debate Jorx General 35 04-01-2009 07:02 PM
Is Aikido effective for police? erogers General 136 07-13-2008 07:00 AM
That it works, don't make it good. senshincenter General 51 06-22-2005 02:29 PM
One class in the life of...(Photographed Edition) Veers General 14 07-16-2003 10:25 AM


All times are GMT -6. The time now is 09:27 PM.



vBulletin Copyright © 2000-2016 Jelsoft Enterprises Limited
----------
Copyright 1997-2016 AikiWeb and its Authors, All Rights Reserved.
----------
For questions and comments about this website:
Send E-mail
plainlaid-picaresque outchasing-protistan explicantia-altarage seaford-stellionate