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Old 12-09-2013, 12:18 AM   #1
Sojourner
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Responding to being punched in the face.

This video is making some headlines in Australia as they are accusing the security staff of being "Heavy Handed".

Essentially what has happened is that the person involved has not purchased a ticket and is stopped by the ticket inspector, at 0.06 the ticket inspector gets a punch in the face from the offender and it is at that point that they use a throw and pin, I am not sure if its Judo or Aikido but I am guessing if its Aikido then someone may well be able to recognize what form it is.

Interested in your thoughts on what you would do if you were the ticket inspector in the same situation and if you think the reaction from the staff is heavy handed or not?

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2013-12-0...ootage/5144160
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Old 12-09-2013, 12:45 AM   #2
Ellis Amdur
 
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Re: Responding to being punched in the face.

She tried to use the gate to strike an inspector. Then she hit him. That's a crime - actually two. She was picked up and it looks to me thumped to the ground, not too hard. The proof of that is that the biased article didn't talk about any injuries, and the writer surely would have had there been the slightest scratch. So, in essence, a young woman committing a criminal assault was subdued without injury. A good day's work.

I thought the comment section was interesting. 50% apiece. One half much of the same opinion as mine, and half outraged on behalf of the girl - here's my favorite of the latter:
Quote:
"The problem is the fare itself. For the average person, public transport fares are now out of their reach. More so for young people or for those looking for work. If the fares more accurately reflected the level of service provided (ie. crap) and were priced accordingly at say $2.50 for the average trip, then less people would be inclined to try and cheat the system."
Ellis Amdur

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Old 12-09-2013, 02:46 AM   #3
Rupert Atkinson
 
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Re: Responding to being punched in the face.

To me it is simple. The gate was open; she walked out of the gate. It's partly the station's fault for leaving the gate open and unguarded (they were behind her). I don't think they needed to drop her like that - they should have just talked to her and checked her ticket - she must have had one - and made her pay the difference if it was insufficient. I don't like to see the abuse of power. It's pathetic to me - shows they are either power mad, or incapable of restraining a weaker person without hurting them - and therefore unqualified to be doing their job. As the article stated, in Rugby it is an offence to drop someone with their legs higher than their head.

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Old 12-09-2013, 05:56 AM   #4
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Re: Responding to being punched in the face.

I'm with Rupert, the MP and the witness here. I don't think she deliberately hits him with the gate, it looks like she's just trying to give herself more space to get around en route to an exit top right of frame and doesn't even know he's there at that point. When she throws the left he's already put hands on her and it looks like an instinctive reaction to being assaulted. In the absence of audio on the first clip it's unclear what was said to her prior to this if anything (he was on the phone/radio). The dump to ground shows quite a bit of aggression that looks like it was a result of the left hook and the subsequent restraint was OTT. Poor control physically and emotionally.
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Old 12-09-2013, 09:00 AM   #5
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Re: Responding to being punched in the face.

Dunno about the security folks, but if that were *my* daughter, we'd be having a long conversation about naturally-occurring consequences.

Evolution doesn't prove God doesn't exist, any more than hammers prove carpenters don't exist.
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Old 12-09-2013, 09:06 AM   #6
OwlMatt
 
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Re: Responding to being punched in the face.

The video clearly shows the girl starting the violence by throwing a punch. At that point, it is the job of the authorities present to immobilize her. Physically intervening in teenage violence used to be part of my job, and I can say from experience that it is very difficult to immobilize someone the size of a 15-year-old without taking them to the ground. It can be done (and should be done in a place like a school where the well-being of the kid is the legal responsibility of the authorities), but that requires a kind of training that ticket inspectors are unlikely to have.

What we have here is a girl who is trying to commit a crime and who physically assaults authorities when they try to stop her from committing the crime. We can see clearly in the video that the authorities do not strike her, and we have no information indicating the girl was harmed in any way. There is no cause for outcry here.

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Old 12-09-2013, 09:36 AM   #7
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Re: Responding to being punched in the face.

I think the only thing to be learned from this is that different observers can clearly see completely different and contradictory things happening in the same video. Conclusion: be less certain that you're right and that others are wrong.
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Old 12-09-2013, 10:57 AM   #8
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Re: Responding to being punched in the face.

I imagine the inspectors have a hard time, considering they have to treat individuals like they could be anything from a terrorist to a stupid kid. In this case it was a stupid kid, albeit one who was willing to hit. I'd like to think I wouldn't risk hitting the back of her head with a leg takedown like that; doesn't seem like a great strategy in a couple ways, but I'm not an expert, either. I generally hold officers to the highest standard (which, because I'm not an expert, might in fact be unreasonable for all I know) and that means not risking the wellbeing (by potentially smashing the back of her head) of an unruly 15 year old who has a problem with authority.
Then again, I thought the SPD cop who punched the unruly J-walker had crossed the line and AFAIK he wasn't even reprimanded; the girl appologized: (mind the profanity) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WrRWIGesJS8

Maybe these are arguments for better training and protocols?

Gambarimashyo!
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Old 12-09-2013, 01:25 PM   #9
Demetrio Cereijo
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Re: Responding to being punched in the face.

I don't see the security guy applying excessive force.
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Old 12-09-2013, 01:42 PM   #10
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Re: Responding to being punched in the face.

I have worked as a teacher for many years and have had my share of altercations. How long do you think I would last as a teacher if I picked up a student and dropped them on their head?

Any guard worth his salt should be able to deal with an unruly 15 year old girl with ease.

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Old 12-09-2013, 01:47 PM   #11
Michael Hackett
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Re: Responding to being punched in the face.

Making a judgment from a single perspective video and a news article often leads to misunderstanding of the situation. Were there other camera angles? What did the girl say when interviewed? The officer? Witnesses? What was being said? What was her history there? Was she a known violator? Had she assaulted officers before? We who have only seen this one link simply don't know enough about the event to opine competently.

Michael
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Old 12-09-2013, 02:43 PM   #12
mathewjgano
 
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Re: Responding to being punched in the face.

Quote:
Michael Hackett wrote: View Post
Making a judgment from a single perspective video and a news article often leads to misunderstanding of the situation. Were there other camera angles? What did the girl say when interviewed? The officer? Witnesses? What was being said? What was her history there? Was she a known violator? Had she assaulted officers before? We who have only seen this one link simply don't know enough about the event to opine competently.
There are 2 different video perspectives in that video, but neither show her getting dropped on her head as far as I can tell. My belief is the takedown seems risky, though...however, maybe the agent was particularly careful and could tell it was a safer alternative than letting her stay on her feet. FWIW, I agree she tried slamming the gate on the agent and believe she tried the tactic many people employ when they know they've been caught: play dumb and act outraged.
On the other hand, I have to wonder why the gate was even left open...seems like a good way to hedge against events like this is to make it harder for them happen in the first place...particularly when security is an ongoing issue in locations like this (mass transit hubs).

Gambarimashyo!
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Old 12-09-2013, 02:56 PM   #13
Michael Hackett
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Re: Responding to being punched in the face.

Matthew, you are right. When I viewed it last night I didn't see the news anchor portion or the view from the other side of the barrier. After your post I went back and the whole thing played. ?????

Michael
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Old 12-09-2013, 04:43 PM   #14
Michael Hackett
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Re: Responding to being punched in the face.

For what it's worth, use of force is analyzed in a particular manner:

Was the use of force within policy?

Was the use of force lawful by statute?

Was the use of force necessary and appropriate?

The last one is the difficult issue. Here in the United States we use the "reasonable officer" standard for this part of the analysis. Would a reasonable officer in the same circumstances, and with the same training have used this force? That is a big difference from the reasonable person standard that applies in some places. Basically, all those who wrote the comments Ellis referred to are using the reasonable person standard, and I suspect most of us here are as well.

Was this reasonable force? I don't know because I still don't know the details and I don't know the governing rules and conventions.

Michael
"Leave the gun. Bring the cannoli."
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Old 12-09-2013, 06:40 PM   #15
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Re: Responding to being punched in the face.

Seems like the girl in the video punched the inspector in the face, clear enough. Dropping her on her head might be a bit much, but he did not start the confrontation. He certainly ended it. Depends on his skill level if it's appropriate or not. Maybe he didn't know how to use less? No clue.

I find it interesting that the kanji character for kuzushi illustrates a mountain falling on a house.
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Old 12-09-2013, 08:23 PM   #16
Ellis Amdur
 
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Re: Responding to being punched in the face.

The Green asserts she was hit on her head. Is that true? I looked at the video from both angles, and did multiple stop actions. It looks to me that she was dumped squarely on her back - her head does not smash backwards. The officer did not drop his body weight on top of her, either. He dumped her on her back, rather than slammed her down. Also, notice that two apparent friends we also trying to involve themselves with the officers trying to restrain them as well. I cannot tell if it was her or another friend who spat in one's face. Furthermore, she was not being crushed as is implied - (there was one officer holding down her center mass, and one securing her legs from the side. She has more than enough energy to swear as well as yell out her age, assuming that this should give her a free pass.

Looks to me to be about the same impact that the readers would experience at a mild-mannered aikido dojo.

I would expect that if they put a sankyo on her and she began caterwauling about how her wrist hurt, the same objections of brutality would be raised.

Ellis Amdur

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Old 12-10-2013, 03:11 AM   #17
Kevin Leavitt
 
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Re: Responding to being punched in the face.

You know there were a lot of shape corners and objects around there to hurt her and others if they tried to control her standing up. I'd say given the circumstances, they probably put her in the best place to control and protect her and the inspectors from injury if it got out of control.

Having dealt with this kinda thing in the past, you really need to be decisive and definitive in what you are doing. I've tried to reason with folks before and it usually ends up bad for both of us. Better to dump her on the floor and control than to end up pushing her face first into spikes or a sharp corner of one of those gates.

A big part of the problem is the lack of understanding of conflict and martial application by the civil masses. It tugs at your emotions seeing a big guy dump a little girl on the ground. It is just not "normal". However, strip away the emotion, and what you are faced with is really not that bad. I think it all depends on your understanding and paradigm of civility and violence.

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Old 12-10-2013, 09:44 AM   #18
Michael Hackett
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Re: Responding to being punched in the face.

Most people have never dealt with a 15 year old killer or a female killer. Most people have never dealt with a killer at all for that matter. I've yet to see one who was wearing a sign warning those around them.

Michael
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Old 12-10-2013, 10:44 AM   #19
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Re: Responding to being punched in the face.

Thought the inspectors did a good job - no damage to assailant who continued to act aggressively despite being restrained.

The fact that she is 15 is irrelevant.
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Old 12-10-2013, 11:54 AM   #20
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Re: Responding to being punched in the face.

1. It is not permissible to engage an officer. These individuals are carrying weapons and instruments that are used to subdue people and they need to defend their bodies from anyone. Right or wrong, as a society we have pledged to listen to our civil authorities and empowered them to control us.
2. Like many videos of this sort, I think we are missing some information from the entirety of the situation. The officer pursuing the young lady clearly was calling assistance and appears have a good idea of what is going on. We don't know if she was studiously ignoring a command to stop or a number of other elements that may have elevated the situation.

Personally, I think this girl broke the law, was identified by security for whatever reason, resisted initial requests to comply with security and the situation escalated. I am more concerned by the justification of resisting than the application of control.

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Old 12-10-2013, 12:16 PM   #21
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Re: Responding to being punched in the face.

The question isn't "did the officers use excessive force on this particular young lady" it is really more about "is it appropriate to attempt to physically detain people who have or are attempting to jump the gate". It probably is - terrorists and all that. You can't just let people get on the trains and hope they are simply trying to use the transit system, and hope you can catch them at their destination.

When officers go hands on, anything can happen. Bumps, scrapes, concussions, and even broken bones should be expected.

I'd definitely call it excessive force if she had wound up shot...but this was not in America.
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Old 12-10-2013, 04:31 PM   #22
Walter Martindale
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Re: Responding to being punched in the face.

I watched the video/news report last night and thought… Was she trying to get in to the trains without paying or out of the station without paying? How were the security guys on top of her so fast if she just walked to the gate - were they tailing her for another reason prior to her exiting via the breached fence? Did she know the guys were pursuing her or was she just pulling the gate shut behind her?

One thing is we can't tell what went on before she got to the fence. Were they pursuing her for shoplifting in one of the station kiosks? and on and on.

Ok, something was fishy because she did pop the guy in the face, but did he ID as security or did she just think "mugger" ? Who knows?

I don't think the resolution on this video is sufficient to say whether she hit her head or not but she was taken down via what looked like a rugby style tackle.
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Old 12-10-2013, 04:37 PM   #23
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Re: Responding to being punched in the face.

Quote:
Jon Reading wrote: View Post
1. It is not permissible to engage an officer. These individuals are carrying weapons and instruments that are used to subdue people and they need to defend their bodies from anyone. Right or wrong, as a society we have pledged to listen to our civil authorities and empowered them to control us.
2. Like many videos of this sort, I think we are missing some information from the entirety of the situation. The officer pursuing the young lady clearly was calling assistance and appears have a good idea of what is going on. We don't know if she was studiously ignoring a command to stop or a number of other elements that may have elevated the situation.

Personally, I think this girl broke the law, was identified by security for whatever reason, resisted initial requests to comply with security and the situation escalated. I am more concerned by the justification of resisting than the application of control.
True enough it's an assault when you "engage" an officer. This was Australia, not the US. I've spent very little time in Oz, but I'm not sure if security guys there carry firearms. I THINK some of the cops there carry firearms but I'm not sure.
As you say, though, we don't know what went on prior to the start of the video.
W
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Old 12-10-2013, 05:55 PM   #24
Brian Gillaspie
 
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Re: Responding to being punched in the face.

I can't really say if it was excessive because I was not in the situation and like many others have said we don't know what led up to it. If she did break the law she is old enough to understand there will be consequences. Security may not have made the best choices but neither did the girl.
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Old 12-10-2013, 06:24 PM   #25
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Re: Responding to being punched in the face.

Quote:
Rupert Atkinson wrote: View Post
I have worked as a teacher for many years and have had my share of altercations. How long do you think I would last as a teacher if I picked up a student and dropped them on their head?

Any guard worth his salt should be able to deal with an unruly 15 year old girl with ease.
How many of these "altercations" did you actually, physically intervene in? My experience has been that immobilizing a violent teenager, male or female, is not nearly as easy as you are making it out to be here.

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