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Old 11-22-2013, 03:49 PM   #1
akiy
 
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YouTube: Morihei Ueshiba - Rare Aikido Demonstration (1957)



Here is a historical video of Morihei Ueshiba demonstrating in 1957. The film, courtesy of Guillaume Erard, was part of André Nocquet's private 8 mm collection.

What are your thoughts on this video?

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Old 11-22-2013, 07:06 PM   #2
Dazaifoo
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Re: YouTube: Morihei Ueshiba - Rare Aikido Demonstration (1957)

This is a nice clear transfer from old black and white film stock. I love the slowed down version of his jo work at the 9 minute 40 second mark. One thing that's a shame about these old clips is just the limit of film technology at the time. Rarely do we hear Ueshiba speak on these old 8mm films. I'd love to be able to hear the instructions he was giving his students. Shoganai, neh?
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Old 11-22-2013, 09:28 PM   #3
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Re: YouTube: Morihei Ueshiba - Rare Aikido Demonstration (1957)

Good illustration of O Sensei demonstrating Aikido principles via technique. Leading, blending and evading, used to take uke's balance, are all plainly evident. Also easily seen is the almost total absence of the need for overt control of uke thanks to excellent timing, positioning and the maintenance of proper distance throughout the entire encounter. Too bad there's no translation of what he was saying.

Ron

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Old 11-23-2013, 08:40 AM   #4
Cady Goldfield
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Re: YouTube: Morihei Ueshiba - Rare Aikido Demonstration (1957)

Quote:
Scott Burke wrote: View Post
(snip) Rarely do we hear Ueshiba speak on these old 8mm films. I'd love to be able to hear the instructions he was giving his students. Shoganai, neh?
It would be nice to hear his voice, though it's the hands-on feel that these films and videos can never convey but which would be the most instructive, of course!

But, can anyone here lip-read Japanese?
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Old 11-23-2013, 12:18 PM   #5
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Re: YouTube: Morihei Ueshiba - Rare Aikido Demonstration (1957)

I liked it.

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Old 11-23-2013, 01:12 PM   #6
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Re: YouTube: Morihei Ueshiba - Rare Aikido Demonstration (1957)

I love the old black and white films. I'm always struck by just how small O Sensei was, even by Japanese standards. He looks maybe 5' - 5'1'', 130lbs. at the most, but still fast a fish. Not too bad for an old man Proof positive that technique can overcome strength and power, when applied properly. Does anyone know the location? Are they on top of a particular dojo, or just a random building on a nice sunny day. Thanks for the post.
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Old 11-23-2013, 02:42 PM   #7
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Re: YouTube: Morihei Ueshiba - Rare Aikido Demonstration (1957)

Quote:
Karl Arant wrote: View Post
Does anyone know the location? Are they on top of a particular dojo, or just a random building on a nice sunny day. Thanks for the post.
In the youtube page says "This is a rare demonstration held at the Self-Defense Ministry in Tokyo's Akasaka circa 1957".

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Old 11-23-2013, 02:44 PM   #8
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Re: YouTube: Morihei Ueshiba - Rare Aikido Demonstration (1957)

Fascinating!
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Old 11-23-2013, 02:49 PM   #9
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Re: YouTube: Morihei Ueshiba - Rare Aikido Demonstration (1957)

Quote:
Karl Arant wrote: View Post
I love the old black and white films. I'm always struck by just how small O Sensei was, even by Japanese standards. He looks maybe 5' - 5'1'', 130lbs. at the most, but still fast a fish. Not too bad for an old man Proof positive that technique can overcome strength and power, when applied properly.
This is one of the many reasons for my fascination and love for Aikido.
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Old 11-23-2013, 04:18 PM   #10
Bernd Lehnen
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Re: YouTube: Morihei Ueshiba - Rare Aikido Demonstration (1957)

Quote:
Karl Arant wrote: View Post
I love the old black and white films. I'm always struck by just how small O Sensei was, even by Japanese standards. He looks maybe 5' - 5'1'', 130lbs. at the most, but still fast a fish. Not too bad for an old man Proof positive that technique can overcome strength and power, when applied properly.
Where's the proof? My teacher told me, that O Sensei was at that time still an outstandingly strong person. Even by todays standards. So…?

Best

Bernd
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Old 11-23-2013, 05:51 PM   #11
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Re: YouTube: Morihei Ueshiba - Rare Aikido Demonstration (1957)

Quote:
Cady Goldfield wrote: View Post
It would be nice to hear his voice, though it's the hands-on feel that these films and videos can never convey but which would be the most instructive, of course!

But, can anyone here lip-read Japanese?
Hi, Cady,
Some deaf Japanese gent perchance? I would have thought this would be the best bet.
In the Yorkshire cotton mills of the U.K in the 40s /50s women were able to read lips.Noisy machinery prevented talking.No problem nowadays, you can speak /hear quite clearly in the dole /job centre[a misnomer if ever there was one ].Cheers, Joe.
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Old 11-30-2013, 12:04 PM   #12
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Re: YouTube: Morihei Ueshiba - Rare Aikido Demonstration (1957)

Quote:
Bernd Lehnen wrote: View Post
Where's the proof? My teacher told me, that O Sensei was at that time still an outstandingly strong person. Even by todays standards. So…?

Best

Bernd
Guten tag Bernd,

Just because your sensei said something doesn't make it true, particularly one with a hero-worshiping bias such as your sensei. Also, define "outstandingly strong". He may have been so, for his age and his time, however, all people are subject to the ravages of age and deterioration, particularly senior citizens. (besides what is your sensei's frame of reference?)
I live in a US college town with some of the finest athletes in the world. Trust me, they're "outstandingly strong" (20+ reps of 400lbs bench press, sub 4.40s 40meter dash, etc....) literally Olympic caliber athletes. None of us can even begin to relate to their physical skills and abilities. Osensei was no where near this level of pure strength and fitness EVER, and if so where are the unbiased records? (I've seen all same pictures you have and I don's see anything special.)
Sadly, 80-year-old, 5' tall, 130lbs men never have been, and never will be capable of such scientifically measurable, objective feats or strength and fitness, regardless of one's level of "ki mastery". Then again, I can't prove the negative and you haven't proven the affirmative (personal, biased anecdotes are not evidence). Aside from all that, it's just good old Human Anatomy and Physiology (I'll be happy to debate that with you as well), as we age we deteriorate :/
There's a reason you don't see +50 year old boxers, or tournament fighters, they're (relatively) old, slow and weak. However, these limitations can be overcome with proper technique, as I initially started, but only with proper technique. All things being equal, the younger, faster, fitter fighter wins.
It's like golf, while the young guns generally prevail, there are a few old masters who have refined their stroke over the years to compensate for their deteriorating physical attributes to still remain competitive, but this is generally the exception rather than the rule. (Oddly, Tiger Woods the child phenom, is now having to assume this role of the veteran player who relies more on technique than raw power. Proof positive that it can, and does, happen to the best of 'em.)
Osensei's greatest fault is that he relied far too much on the opinions of others and himself to promote his art, rather than with consistent, unbiased, certifiable achievements. This is also why Aikido, in general, tends to get a bad rap as being a "weak" art. I'm no fan of the Gracie family one way or the other, but they did take on all comers at all times without exception, and you've gotta give them credit for that. They also recorded as many matches as possible for authentication. They put their money where their mouth is, which is more than I can say for many in the Aikido community. It need not be a "competition" for there to be a genuine test of skill. After all, we test nuclear reactors, without turning them into nuclear bombs.
Although I love the art of Aikido and acknowledge Osensei's ingeniousness and great skill, I laugh out loud at all the old "I'd love to give the emperor a demonstration of my art, but it's just too dang lethal" excuses. Yeah riiiiiiiight, and I got a bridge to sell ya Also, did I mention, I just wrote a symphony ten times better than Beethoven's ninth, but its just too good to let anyone hear. It might kill them. LOL!!!!!
I've also never seen a vid where Osensei was genuinely challenged by a decent, unbiased competitor (lumbering 1950's era , US "juodoka" notwithstanding). After all, where are the leg kicks, take down attempts, decent boxing with cross, jabs and upper cuts? You haven't seen one either, because they don't exist.
For better, or worse, the old man was expert a ducking a challenge all while claiming innate superiority on both a physical and "spiritual" plane (that is if you count invading Manchuria on a ridiculous and rather cruel religious crusade a "spiritual act"). Maybe he was an athletic phenomenon beyond all reckoning, maybe he wasn't, but without concrete, unbiased proof one must withhold judgment on such speculations, rather than relying on others opinions.

Danke schoen,

Karl

"That which can be asserted without evidence, can be dismissed without evidence." -Christopher Hitchens
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Old 11-30-2013, 12:57 PM   #13
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Re: YouTube: Morihei Ueshiba - Rare Aikido Demonstration (1957)

Trying to use modern technology on old world skills just won't work. Video and film just wasn't abundant back then. Even if it was, doesn't mean that it would be captured. Even in todays world some arts don't allow it to be filmed. Word of mouth is all you got to go by.
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Old 11-30-2013, 02:02 PM   #14
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Re: YouTube: Morihei Ueshiba - Rare Aikido Demonstration (1957)

Does anyone know who the uke were?

Warning: Do not bend, fold or otherwise abuse... until we get to the dojo..


合気道研心会 Aikido Kenshinkai
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Old 11-30-2013, 05:29 PM   #15
Bernd Lehnen
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Re: YouTube: Morihei Ueshiba - Rare Aikido Demonstration (1957)

Quote:
Karl Arant wrote: View Post
Guten tag Bernd,

Just because your sensei said something doesn't make it true, particularly one with a hero-worshiping bias such as your sensei. Also, define "outstandingly strong". He may have been so, for his age and his time, however, all people are subject to the ravages of age and deterioration, particularly senior citizens. (besides what is your sensei's frame of reference?)
I live in a US college town with some of the finest athletes in the world. Trust me, they're "outstandingly strong" (20+ reps of 400lbs bench press, sub 4.40s 40meter dash, etc....) literally Olympic caliber athletes. None of us can even begin to relate to their physical skills and abilities. Osensei was no where near this level of pure strength and fitness EVER, and if so where are the unbiased records? (I've seen all same pictures you have and I don's see anything special.)
Sadly, 80-year-old, 5' tall, 130lbs men never have been, and never will be capable of such scientifically measurable, objective feats or strength and fitness, regardless of one's level of "ki mastery". Then again, I can't prove the negative and you haven't proven the affirmative (personal, biased anecdotes are not evidence). Aside from all that, it's just good old Human Anatomy and Physiology (I'll be happy to debate that with you as well), as we age we deteriorate :/
There's a reason you don't see +50 year old boxers, or tournament fighters, they're (relatively) old, slow and weak. However, these limitations can be overcome with proper technique, as I initially started, but only with proper technique. All things being equal, the younger, faster, fitter fighter wins.
It's like golf, while the young guns generally prevail, there are a few old masters who have refined their stroke over the years to compensate for their deteriorating physical attributes to still remain competitive, but this is generally the exception rather than the rule. (Oddly, Tiger Woods the child phenom, is now having to assume this role of the veteran player who relies more on technique than raw power. Proof positive that it can, and does, happen to the best of 'em.)
Osensei's greatest fault is that he relied far too much on the opinions of others and himself to promote his art, rather than with consistent, unbiased, certifiable achievements. This is also why Aikido, in general, tends to get a bad rap as being a "weak" art. I'm no fan of the Gracie family one way or the other, but they did take on all comers at all times without exception, and you've gotta give them credit for that. They also recorded as many matches as possible for authentication. They put their money where their mouth is, which is more than I can say for many in the Aikido community. It need not be a "competition" for there to be a genuine test of skill. After all, we test nuclear reactors, without turning them into nuclear bombs.
Although I love the art of Aikido and acknowledge Osensei's ingeniousness and great skill, I laugh out loud at all the old "I'd love to give the emperor a demonstration of my art, but it's just too dang lethal" excuses. Yeah riiiiiiiight, and I got a bridge to sell ya Also, did I mention, I just wrote a symphony ten times better than Beethoven's ninth, but its just too good to let anyone hear. It might kill them. LOL!!!!!
I've also never seen a vid where Osensei was genuinely challenged by a decent, unbiased competitor (lumbering 1950's era , US "juodoka" notwithstanding). After all, where are the leg kicks, take down attempts, decent boxing with cross, jabs and upper cuts? You haven't seen one either, because they don't exist.
For better, or worse, the old man was expert a ducking a challenge all while claiming innate superiority on both a physical and "spiritual" plane (that is if you count invading Manchuria on a ridiculous and rather cruel religious crusade a "spiritual act"). Maybe he was an athletic phenomenon beyond all reckoning, maybe he wasn't, but without concrete, unbiased proof one must withhold judgment on such speculations, rather than relying on others opinions.

Danke schoen,

Karl

"That which can be asserted without evidence, can be dismissed without evidence." -Christopher Hitchens
Karl,

When I asked for proof, I rather intended to ask you to point out where in this old film of 1957 you find O Sensei's technique to overcome strength and power.

Best,
Bernd
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Old 11-30-2013, 06:24 PM   #16
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Re: YouTube: Morihei Ueshiba - Rare Aikido Demonstration (1957)

Quote:
Karl Arant wrote: View Post
Guten tag Bernd,

Just because your sensei said something doesn't make it true, particularly one with a hero-worshiping bias such as your sensei. Also, define "outstandingly strong". He may have been so, for his age and his time, however, all people are subject to the ravages of age and deterioration, particularly senior citizens. (besides what is your sensei's frame of reference?)
I live in a US college town with some of the finest athletes in the world. Trust me, they're "outstandingly strong" (20+ reps of 400lbs bench press, sub 4.40s 40meter dash, etc....) literally Olympic caliber athletes. None of us can even begin to relate to their physical skills and abilities. Osensei was no where near this level of pure strength and fitness EVER, and if so where are the unbiased records? (I've seen all same pictures you have and I don's see anything special.)
Sadly, 80-year-old, 5' tall, 130lbs men never have been, and never will be capable of such scientifically measurable, objective feats or strength and fitness, regardless of one's level of "ki mastery". Then again, I can't prove the negative and you haven't proven the affirmative (personal, biased anecdotes are not evidence). Aside from all that, it's just good old Human Anatomy and Physiology (I'll be happy to debate that with you as well), as we age we deteriorate :/
There's a reason you don't see +50 year old boxers, or tournament fighters, they're (relatively) old, slow and weak. However, these limitations can be overcome with proper technique, as I initially started, but only with proper technique. All things being equal, the younger, faster, fitter fighter wins.
It's like golf, while the young guns generally prevail, there are a few old masters who have refined their stroke over the years to compensate for their deteriorating physical attributes to still remain competitive, but this is generally the exception rather than the rule. (Oddly, Tiger Woods the child phenom, is now having to assume this role of the veteran player who relies more on technique than raw power. Proof positive that it can, and does, happen to the best of 'em.)
Osensei's greatest fault is that he relied far too much on the opinions of others and himself to promote his art, rather than with consistent, unbiased, certifiable achievements. This is also why Aikido, in general, tends to get a bad rap as being a "weak" art. I'm no fan of the Gracie family one way or the other, but they did take on all comers at all times without exception, and you've gotta give them credit for that. They also recorded as many matches as possible for authentication. They put their money where their mouth is, which is more than I can say for many in the Aikido community. It need not be a "competition" for there to be a genuine test of skill. After all, we test nuclear reactors, without turning them into nuclear bombs.
Although I love the art of Aikido and acknowledge Osensei's ingeniousness and great skill, I laugh out loud at all the old "I'd love to give the emperor a demonstration of my art, but it's just too dang lethal" excuses. Yeah riiiiiiiight, and I got a bridge to sell ya Also, did I mention, I just wrote a symphony ten times better than Beethoven's ninth, but its just too good to let anyone hear. It might kill them. LOL!!!!!
I've also never seen a vid where Osensei was genuinely challenged by a decent, unbiased competitor (lumbering 1950's era , US "juodoka" notwithstanding). After all, where are the leg kicks, take down attempts, decent boxing with cross, jabs and upper cuts? You haven't seen one either, because they don't exist.
For better, or worse, the old man was expert a ducking a challenge all while claiming innate superiority on both a physical and "spiritual" plane (that is if you count invading Manchuria on a ridiculous and rather cruel religious crusade a "spiritual act"). Maybe he was an athletic phenomenon beyond all reckoning, maybe he wasn't, but without concrete, unbiased proof one must withhold judgment on such speculations, rather than relying on others opinions.

Danke schoen,

Karl

"That which can be asserted without evidence, can be dismissed without evidence." -Christopher Hitchens
Der Karl,
I suggest you do some research on a man called Joseph L Greenstein aka 'The Mighty Atom'.
He was an old time strongman.He could bite solid dollar coins in half.He held back a twin prop aeroplane with his hair.He pounded six nails through solid wood.He was a tiny man ,Even at an advanced age is feats of strength were astounding.
It is my understanding that O Sensei was a very strong man.Check his earlier pictures.He is built like a brick outhouse.
If you want to know exactly how powerful O Sensei was or how skilled why not take the time/make the effort to ask some of his uchideshi who are still living?I would agree that in general physical power diminishes with age, nevertheless it does not mean that everyone becomes weakling.
In my youth I met a man called David Webster.He challenged people strand pulling contests.Nobody could fully open a set of strands he used.Another man John Citrone could take a standard rubber hot water bottle and he would blow it up until waterbottle burst.
The athletes you mention might well be fast , strong but can they use what they have in areas other than their speciality?Where is your own evidence that O Sensei that O Sensei ducked out of challenges???The fact is that neither you or most people can not answer this question.Only people who have had contact with O Sensei can say what he was like.The rest is speculation imo.
Cheers, Joe
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Old 12-01-2013, 06:27 AM   #17
Carl Thompson
 
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Re: YouTube: Morihei Ueshiba - Rare Aikido Demonstration (1957)

I don't think I can wait much longer for an IP practitioner to chip in here.
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Old 12-01-2013, 07:36 AM   #18
Lee Salzman
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Re: YouTube: Morihei Ueshiba - Rare Aikido Demonstration (1957)

Quote:
Carl Thompson wrote: View Post
I don't think I can wait much longer for an IP practitioner to chip in here.
Okay, how's this (I invested about 5 seconds of thought into it): I used to be able to lift several times my own bodyweight but then gave it all up cold-turkey to chase IP because the type of strength needed to throw people and the type of strength needed to throw weight around are completely different and incomparable.

Did I do my job? Satisfied?
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Old 12-01-2013, 08:14 AM   #19
Demetrio Cereijo
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Re: YouTube: Morihei Ueshiba - Rare Aikido Demonstration (1957)

Real power:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jOeFcZ4Nk9k

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Old 12-01-2013, 03:43 PM   #20
Carl Thompson
 
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Re: YouTube: Morihei Ueshiba - Rare Aikido Demonstration (1957)

Quote:
Lee Salzman wrote: View Post
Okay, how's this (I invested about 5 seconds of thought into it): I used to be able to lift several times my own bodyweight but then gave it all up cold-turkey to chase IP because the type of strength needed to throw people and the type of strength needed to throw weight around are completely different and incomparable.

Did I do my job? Satisfied?
Saved me a lot more seconds thinking time that I'd have used trying to explain kokyu power.

Thanks
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Old 12-01-2013, 08:39 PM   #21
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Re: YouTube: Morihei Ueshiba - Rare Aikido Demonstration (1957)

The video is fabulous.

Some of the comments, meh. There's a lot of value in debunking myths... but some of the comments here strike me as of the nature of, "I can't imagine being this good, so he couldn't have been either."

In practice today, we finished with kokyu dosa, as we often do, and Sensei came by and corrected me, as he often does . So then he decides to demonstrate on me and I think, "Right, you 70-year-old man, let's see what you can get on me," and he goes through me like a forklift.

But of course, he's been doing that IS stuff (that's for Carl) so it's hardly surprising.

Evolution doesn't prove God doesn't exist, any more than hammers prove carpenters don't exist.
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Old 12-02-2013, 01:58 AM   #22
Carl Thompson
 
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Re: YouTube: Morihei Ueshiba - Rare Aikido Demonstration (1957)

Quote:
Hugh Beyer wrote: View Post
The video is fabulous.

Some of the comments, meh. There's a lot of value in debunking myths... but some of the comments here strike me as of the nature of, "I can't imagine being this good, so he couldn't have been either."

In practice today, we finished with kokyu dosa, as we often do, and Sensei came by and corrected me, as he often does . So then he decides to demonstrate on me and I think, "Right, you 70-year-old man, let's see what you can get on me," and he goes through me like a forklift.

But of course, he's been doing that IS stuff (that's for Carl) so it's hardly surprising.
For me? Oh no!
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Old 12-03-2013, 10:43 AM   #23
kfa4303
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Re: YouTube: Morihei Ueshiba - Rare Aikido Demonstration (1957)

Quote:
Joe Curran wrote: View Post
Der Karl,
I suggest you do some research on a man called Joseph L Greenstein aka 'The Mighty Atom'.
He was an old time strongman.He could bite solid dollar coins in half.He held back a twin prop aeroplane with his hair.He pounded six nails through solid wood.He was a tiny man ,Even at an advanced age is feats of strength were astounding.
It is my understanding that O Sensei was a very strong man.Check his earlier pictures.He is built like a brick outhouse.
If you want to know exactly how powerful O Sensei was or how skilled why not take the time/make the effort to ask some of his uchideshi who are still living?I would agree that in general physical power diminishes with age, nevertheless it does not mean that everyone becomes weakling.
In my youth I met a man called David Webster.He challenged people strand pulling contests.Nobody could fully open a set of strands he used.Another man John Citrone could take a standard rubber hot water bottle and he would blow it up until waterbottle burst.
The athletes you mention might well be fast , strong but can they use what they have in areas other than their speciality?Where is your own evidence that O Sensei that O Sensei ducked out of challenges???The fact is that neither you or most people can not answer this question.Only people who have had contact with O Sensei can say what he was like.The rest is speculation imo.
Cheers, Joe
I'm not sure which of your fallacious arguments to start with, but I'll give it a shot. For starters, referencing an old timey "strong man" (whatever that is) is utterly irrelevant to Ueshiba's personal abilities. David Blane, Harry Houdini and religious ascetics have been subjecting their bodies to feats of strengths and endurance for years, but it doesn't mean they're superhuman, invincible, magical, etc... Nah, just regular folks with a peculiar skill set, like sword swallowing. Besides, Mas Oyama had far more demonstrations of strength than Ueshiba and they're on film! Never mind the fact that your assertion is complete hearsay and devoid of any objective evidence to support its voracity, but then you knew that. Oh did I mention I could leap buildings in a single bound too. LOL!!! What, you don't believe me? But I said it, so it must be true, right?
"It is my understanding....." that's my point exactly. You're understanding is limited and deeply flawed. You have no first hand knowledge of his physical strength in any objectively measurable form. As a result, all "evidence" you offer are little more than sycophantic remembrances from deeply biases sources, which you have now received from second, third, fourth, fifth hand sources.
While Ueshiba may have been strong for his size and age (relative to a very small and physically weak population in general) he was still by no means objectively strong. Watch professional power lifters, world's strongest man, sprinters, etc... those guys are strong! Oh and "brick outhouses" can easily be toppled, particularly ones that are only 5 feet tall and weigh 130lbs, but thanks for comparing O-sensei to a toilet. I've seen all the pictures of Osensei in his "prime", nothing overly impressive. Go on youtube and you'll find athletes that will blow your mind. THEY have amazing physiques and athletic prowess, not 5' tall Japaneses pensioners. I'm also not aware of anyone in a hurry to cast his "stunning athletic physique" in bronze any time soon. When is the last time a Japanese even won a Gold medal in the Summer Olympics (track and field, boxing, sprinting, high jump, decathlon, etc...)? For better or worse, being Japanese and possessing great athleticism is very rare indeed.
I never made any claim about his strength, others have. As such, the burden of proof is upon the claimant. I can't prove he wasn't particularly strong, they have to prove he was and they haven't. The "evidence", such as it is, relies entirely on deeply biased, subjective sources, the very antithesis of scientific proof and reason. After all, what do you expect the uchi deshi to say, that they dedicated their entire life to a schmuck? Come now, you can't really be that naive? I have trained with several uchi deshi, so what. I wasn't overly impressed. Just because you took piano lessons from Mozart doesn't mean you ARE Mozart (or even a pale imitation). I'm always amazed that people think that simply because they studied with Ueshiba that they necessarily are better than those who haven't, which is of course nonsense. That's like saying you have to personally know Issacc Newton in order to do Calculus. LOL!!!!!!!!
Your last few paragraphs again rely of fallacious logic and pure hearsay, which I've already covered. However, I can blow up a hot water bottle, big F'n deal does that make me special? As for the age old "spirituality" cop out so often used when logic fails, I would simply ask what is an "spirit"? How much does it weigh? Does it interact with the elector-magnetic spectrum in any measurable fashion (if so how are you able to perceive it while I am not? If you can't perceive it, how do you know it's really there?) Also, what is it's specific heat? Triple Point? Molecular Formula? Empirical Formula? You seem to "know" and awful lot about it, so do please give me these simple definitions so that we might have a common base of knowledge from which to operate. Again, the burden of proof is upon the claimant and you have offered none.
I say he ducked challenges until I see other wise. I have yet to see convincing visual evidence that Ueshiba was ever legitimately challenged by a well accomplished, unbiased practitioner. Where are the films of him in the clinch, trading leg kicks, take down, grappling, boxing, etc.......? Of course, no such video will ever be found because they don't exist. As a result, any claims of extra ordinary ability are to be met with deep skepticism ("that which can be asserted without evidence, may be dismissed without evidence.") You have no objective evidence to support your claims. As such, they can and should be dismissed out of hand as they do not meet the basic criteria for the burden of proof.
I wonder if this "spirituality" of Ueshiba's, which you claim to know so much about, includes paling around with war criminals whose acts were so heinous they would have made Goebbels blush, or maybe it was living off of other peoples money his entire life, of maybe it was his great "Spiritual" quest to Mongolia to spread the "wisdom" of the Omoto kyo religion.....with a gun, of course :/ I could go on and on about the "greatness" of the man, but I digress.
While Ueshiba was certainly a great martial artists, he was bound by the same laws of physics which govern us all. As such, he was not capable of anything other people can't also attain. One need not interject ridiculous and utterly non-falsifiable variables ("ki", "spirituality", "energy", etc....) to explain a human man's physical abilities. To do so is insult the years of hard work and dedication of the man, not to mention an insult to the intelligence of your readers.

-Karl
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Old 12-03-2013, 12:04 PM   #24
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Re: YouTube: Morihei Ueshiba - Rare Aikido Demonstration (1957)

Karl:

Your assertion that O-sensei avoided challenges is not credible. Why?

Because in order to teach budo in Japan during the 1920s and 1930s (when O-sensei started teaching), you *had* to be able to accept and defeat challenges, because he would have gotten them...all the time (people still cared about validation back then). If he didn't have the skills to back up his teachings and lost - or worse, if he "avoided" challenges as you claim, this would quickly become known and he would have lost his students and his dojo. Now, that didn't happen did it?

As to your assertion that he must not have had any challenges because there is no video evidence of this...geez, really? It's not like everyone had personal cameras back then like they do now...videoing anything back then was an expensive proposition. That's why for the most part you only see video footage of demonstrations. Also, when you went to another teacher's school to challenge them a certain etiquette came into play, making the encounters for the most part, respectful, but it would also mean that neither party would consent to videoing any part of the "challenge" (not like they had the technology back then, either).
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Old 12-03-2013, 02:12 PM   #25
mathewjgano
 
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Re: YouTube: Morihei Ueshiba - Rare Aikido Demonstration (1957)

Quote:
Karl Arant wrote: View Post
For starters, referencing an old timey "strong man" (whatever that is) is utterly irrelevant to Ueshiba's personal abilities. David Blane, Harry Houdini and religious ascetics have been subjecting their bodies to feats of strengths and endurance for years, but it doesn't mean they're superhuman, invincible, magical, etc...
Nice straw man...or did I miss the part where Joe said O Sensei was superhuman, invincible, magical, etc.? He was inferring (a logically valid approach to supporting a point of view) through the use of similar examples of older folks using strength many younger folks never develop in the first place.
In my experience, Joe is not prone to the "magic" explanation for things.

Quote:
Oh did I mention I could leap buildings in a single bound too. LOL!!! What, you don't believe me? But I said it, so it must be true, right?
Through the power of inference I deduce this to be extremely unlikely.

Quote:
While Ueshiba may have been strong for his size and age (relative to a very small and physically weak population in general) he was still by no means objectively strong. Watch professional power lifters, world's strongest man, sprinters, etc... those guys are strong! Oh and "brick outhouses" can easily be toppled, particularly ones that are only 5 feet tall and weigh 130lbs, but thanks for comparing O-sensei to a toilet.
Only professional power lifters, etc. can be "objectively" strong? Doesn't that depend somewhat on our criteria for what "strength" would be? I've heard about power lifters shaking from a session of internal training practice...of course this is hearsay, but through my powers of inference it struck me as a fairly reliable account. Still, I would agree I don't know this with certainty.

Quote:
I've seen all the pictures of Osensei in his "prime", nothing overly impressive.
Every single one? Sounds like a burden of proof suddenly popped up.
Take care,
Matthew

Last edited by mathewjgano : 12-03-2013 at 02:20 PM.

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