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Old 10-23-2013, 10:07 AM   #376
Demetrio Cereijo
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Re: What technique would you apply to neutralize Brazilian Jujitsu attacker

Quote:
Gordon Young wrote: View Post
You guys are funny, and I'm enjoying some nice chuckles.
There's a deeper question though: what do you do when you don't get a 'clean' attack? When you're facing 'death b by a thousand cuts' rather than 'one strike, one kill'? How do you apply aikido principals and/or techniques in that circumstance?
Clinch-throw-mount-armbar.

And comfy chair.

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Old 10-23-2013, 12:19 PM   #377
Bill Danosky
 
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Re: What technique would you apply to neutralize Brazilian Jujitsu attacker

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Gordon Young wrote: View Post
You guys are funny, and I'm enjoying some nice chuckles.
There's a deeper question though: what do you do when you don't get a 'clean' attack? When you're facing 'death b by a thousand cuts' rather than 'one strike, one kill'? How do you apply aikido principals and/or techniques in that circumstance?

Certainly going right to the center is one of our textbook answers, and the glock or knife fits that model. Distraction, redirection, surprise, unbalancing via conventional or unconventional methods, (circus ponies, goofballs in red uniforms)...OK, I guess you guys are dead on the mark after all.
The thread is not titled, " What AIKIDO technique would you apply to neutralize Brazilian Jujitsu attacker". So tearing their face off is still on the table.
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Old 10-23-2013, 01:01 PM   #378
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Re: What technique would you apply to neutralize Brazilian Jujitsu attacker

Yeah but they can tear your face off as well.

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Old 10-23-2013, 03:55 PM   #379
Bill Danosky
 
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Re: What technique would you apply to neutralize Brazilian Jujitsu attacker

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Yeah but they can tear your face off as well.
Can they? I am not giving them permission.

Last edited by Bill Danosky : 10-23-2013 at 03:58 PM.
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Old 11-14-2013, 03:18 PM   #380
Walter Martindale
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Re: What technique would you apply to neutralize Brazilian Jujitsu attacker

I still prefer a handshake and "Can I buy you a beer?"
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Old 11-16-2013, 09:47 AM   #381
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Re: What technique would you apply to neutralize Brazilian Jujitsu attacker

How bad do you want to win? If all you want is martial efficacy that's super easy:

Always box a wrestler and always wrestle a boxer. In other words don't play their game. If you try to out grapple a grappler, without being one yourself, you're probably going to loose. As previously stated, most BJJ guys are generally not the greatest strikers, so having a good 1-2 cross and left hook in your tool box can be a life saver. Don't believe me? Try and hold you own with a decent amateur boxer. He/She will hold you at bay all day and work you over at will with nothing but a straight jab and good foot work. Bruce Lee emphasized this idea with the power lead.
Also, NEVER go to the ground with any one. BJJ practitioner, or not, the ground is a bad place to be, especially when he pulls that knife out of his pocket you didn't see, or his friends come out of hiding and start kicking out in the head while he holds you down. So don't even train for it, or you will do it in real life and it will backfire. As in nearly all tactical situations, the high ground (e.g. standing versus grappling) is best. For further proof consult the Isreali Self Defense and US military tactics, which strongly discourage going to ground at all costs.
As far as stymieing a BJJ practitioner in particular, you'd be amazed at how well simple tenkan motions and good ol' nikkyo can be. Try applying nikkyo the next time a BJJ grabs your lapel, then hold it for second or two, or three after they tap so they can fully appreciate its efficacy. Most of the BJJ guys have never felt a proper wrist lock and when they do, boy does it get their attention. It also makes them instantaneously less grabby. They're so often concerned with not getting choked out, that they forget about good ol' pain compliance (crude, but effective). It's also humbling from a psychological point of view because it is so quick and effective.
Of course, if none of that works and he does get you to the ground, get into full mount, take your thumbs and drive them into his eye sockets and start doing push ups (literally). I assure they WILL comply with great expedience. Another oldie but goodie is to physically bite their nose while in full mount. You can choose to bite it off fully at your discretion. Look at what a little bite on the ear did to "Iron" Mike Tyson. Image that was your nose and realize you're not 10% as tough as Mike. Heck, you can stop a Great White Shark if you hit him hard enough on the nose and do the eye gouge trick, which means a BJJ guy should is a piece of cake.
It's simply a matter of how far you're willing to go. I practice MARTIAL arts. Martial=military=killing/potentially lethal. If someone wants to study grapple-sport-competition-entertainment that's something else entirely and I could care less.
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Old 11-16-2013, 12:29 PM   #382
Demetrio Cereijo
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Re: What technique would you apply to neutralize Brazilian Jujitsu attacker

Where is the facepalm smiley?

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Old 11-16-2013, 12:43 PM   #383
iplan
 
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Re: What technique would you apply to neutralize Brazilian Jujitsu attacker

Okay, here is how I see it:

If we agree that Aikido is a standing fighting system designed ideally to defeat multiple standing attackers.

and

If we agree that BJJ (Judo by another name) is a ground fighting system designed to defeat a single attacker on the ground,

then ~ and perhaps it has already been answered ~ I didn't read the entire thread ~

If I was fighting against a BJJ guy, I'd like to

a) refuse to go to the ground, and avoid the clinch or take down.

b) when the fight does go to the ground, and a skilled BJJ practitioner can get you there easier than you'd care to admit, it's always nice to have a friend standing by, who could come up and kick the BJJ guy in the back of the head and knock him out ~ as the BJJ practitioner is not really trained for multiple attacker scenarios.

c) Even when on the ground, all of the wrist locks still work ~ Nikkio works just as well standing as it does lying on your back ~ you just need a wrist.....


d) answer his BJJ with my own BJJ.

I believe that these two systems are complimentary. In fact, I think of BJJ as Aikido on the ground. They are both effective, and both have their place.


iplan

Last edited by iplan : 11-16-2013 at 12:52 PM.

"We're not as good as we want to be, we're not as good as we're going to be, but thank God we're not as bad as we used to be." Kevin Higgins
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Old 11-20-2013, 10:22 PM   #384
Bill Danosky
 
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Re: What technique would you apply to neutralize Brazilian Jujitsu attacker

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Jonathan Wilson wrote: View Post
If we agree that BJJ (Judo by another name) is a ground fighting system designed to defeat a single attacker on the ground,
Judo is not a ground fighting system to defeat a single attacker on the ground. It's about take downs and take down defense. Brazilian Ju Jitsu and Judo are both derived from Japanese Ju Jitsu, but they're only cousins.

A BJJ practitioner is going to have a very difficult time with a judoka, until the judoka gets a throw. If it's in an octagon or ring, the BJJ player pulls guard and works his game. If it's anywhere else, an ippon is probably a knockout or close to it.

Another notable difference is, judoka have to throw into a choke or hold almost immediately or the ref will stand them up. This is because on a battlefield, someone will come along and kick you in the head, etc. So you only get a few seconds to make a move.

BJJ players work a long game. Like wrestling an anaconda, you will succumb in the end if you fall into their grasp. The key is not to. You need good striking, good take down defense and you're right, Jonathan- you can surprise them with wrist locks if you are on the ground, but you have to immobilize them well- if they can squirm a little bit, they will wriggle out. Best take the opportunity to shoot your hips out and stand up, or land some crushing strikes- BJJ players do not like getting hit. Or have your friend kick them in the head, as you mentioned. That is their Achilles' heel.

Last edited by Bill Danosky : 11-20-2013 at 10:26 PM. Reason: Broke up my paragraphs.
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Old 11-21-2013, 12:09 AM   #385
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Re: What technique would you apply to neutralize Brazilian Jujitsu attacker

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Bill Danosky wrote: View Post
Judo is not a ground fighting system to defeat a single attacker on the ground. It's about take downs and take down defense. Brazilian Ju Jitsu and Judo are both derived from Japanese Ju Jitsu, but they're only cousins.

A BJJ practitioner is going to have a very difficult time with a judoka, until the judoka gets a throw. If it's in an octagon or ring, the BJJ player pulls guard and works his game. If it's anywhere else, an ippon is probably a knockout or close to it.

Another notable difference is, judoka have to throw into a choke or hold almost immediately or the ref will stand them up. This is because on a battlefield, someone will come along and kick you in the head, etc. So you only get a few seconds to make a move.

BJJ players work a long game. Like wrestling an anaconda, you will succumb in the end if you fall into their grasp. The key is not to. You need good striking, good take down defense and you're right, Jonathan- you can surprise them with wrist locks if you are on the ground, but you have to immobilize them well- if they can squirm a little bit, they will wriggle out. Best take the opportunity to shoot your hips out and stand up, or land some crushing strikes- BJJ players do not like getting hit. Or have your friend kick them in the head, as you mentioned. That is their Achilles' heel.
Not true. I walked into Judo with no background, practiced for about 8 months, then entered my first tournament as a judo white belt with a BJJ purple belt and placed second in the black belt division. This was becoming more and more frequent with grapplers and bjjers obtaining judo membership, then entering the local tournaments. Not too long after that, there were rule changes implemented that discouraged many of the takedowns that are near and dear to my heart...effectively putting the balance back to traditional judoka.

The point is, that BJJers had no issues "doing well" against traditional judoka. In fact, we found they were equal if not more well rounded in competition. The BJJ mentality is "do it if it works, don't waste time if it doesn't". So, while BJJers may not have 5 technical variations of a hip throw...they have a go to one that they have found that works for them in most cases. Most have a paradigm of "study the rules, and exploit them to the maximum."

I can pull up Youtube videos over the last 30 years that show how well the legacy BJJers from Brazil faired against the top players in Judo. They BJJ culture simply see Judo as another venue for testing skill versus lets make rules that will maintain the status quo.

Agreed there are some differences in the tempo of ne waza. I personally think BJJers can learn alot from Judo ne waza. I just spent a week in Dakar, Senegal teaching at Judo schools to include their National Dojo. They wanted to learn how to improve their ne waza. I went over things in BJJ that work very well in Judo. You do not need to move right to a choke, but the fight needs to continue to move forward.

Personally this has never been an issue for me in a Judo tournament or practice. My ne waza far exceeds that of most Judoka, so if I get you on the ground in a judo tournament, the fight will end with a submission. I had no problem passing guard to side control, establishing kesa gatame, flipping to side control, going to mount and doing an arm bar or a choke. Smooth, linear and progressive, maybe 30 seconds to a minute on the ground. I was amazed that the judges gave as much latitude as they did! as long as I was advancing my cause...no issues with staying on the ground.

Other than that...I agree that BJJ has become a game on the ground and it is more like chess than combat in that respect. In my dojo I train the guys in many ways. I'm an advocate of standing the fight back up if they don't advance quick enough, but that causes problems too when the losing guy begins to learn to game the rules and can simply stall.

I am an advocate of introducing weapons at the 30 second mark or a second person during training, so the fight equalizes again if it becomes a slow hug fest.

Be careful with generalizations. Especially with BJJers. On the remarks about not liking to get hit.

You will find most guys that are purple belt or higher have been in the marital arts game a very long time. I'd say more than most martial arts we are very well rounded and most of us came from striking backgrounds, have done MMA or have been exposed to it.

I personally love hitting, and love for that element to be introduced into the equation. I am pretty good at it. I am pretty good at my ne waza. So if you introduce hitting, well I then become pretty damn good...so I personally enjoy the challenge it presents.

Sure, your generalizations might apply to newbs to bjj...that is white belts and blue belts. That is most peoples exposure to BJJ when there buddies take it up and then begin to show their budo buddies what they have learned, which while decent stuff, there games and experience certainly is not enough to represent what very experienced purple, brown, and black belts are doing at their level. Thus, we get the generalizations about what BJJ is and isn't.

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Old 11-21-2013, 07:13 AM   #386
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Re: What technique would you apply to neutralize Brazilian Jujitsu attacker

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Kevin Leavitt wrote: View Post
You will find most guys that are purple belt or higher have been in the marital arts game a very long time. I'd say more than most martial arts we are very well rounded and most of us came from striking backgrounds, have done MMA or have been exposed to it.
Kevin, i really like your writing. your martial point of view worthy of serious consideration. you are definitely a budo mutt. my ground game sucked so i need to take up BJJ. it could be fun.

say, do i need a wax job to take up BJJ?

"budo is putting on cold, wet, sweat stained gi with a smile and a snarl" - your truly
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Old 11-21-2013, 01:00 PM   #387
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Re: What technique would you apply to neutralize Brazilian Jujitsu attacker

definitely a wax job Phi...it is a prereq!

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Old 11-21-2013, 10:38 PM   #388
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Re: What technique would you apply to neutralize Brazilian Jujitsu attacker

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Not true. I walked into Judo with no background, practiced for about 8 months, then entered my first tournament as a judo white belt with a BJJ purple belt and placed second in the black belt division...
I would expect you to do well walking into a Judo dojo, Kevin, because we already know you are an exceptional martial artist. (Am I correct in recalling that your background is in MACP?) But in this thread we are actually asked to make generalizations about a category of martial artists. For the record, I was coming out for BJJ players and stating that they can be extremely dangerous. I roll with friends who can tap me 3 times in 5 minutes. So obviously, it makes sense to take some prior consideration and appropriate training (which is why I still roll with them).

To do that, we're required to discuss the relative weaknesses in general terms. My statement about BJJ'ers not liking to get hit is based on their UFC performance (yes, my favorite yardstick again). Demian Maia is one of the few really successful "pure" BJJ practitioners (well, maybe Fabricio Verdum and the Nogueira bros. too). And I was thinking of Maia when I said that. He hates it. Top trainers have learned how to counter BJJ, so it's lost the exclusive dominance it once had.

A BJJ player needs to take you down to work their game. Judoka are specialists in take down defense. That is why I say "all other things being equal" the BJJ player will struggle to implement their plan. Once it arrives on the ground, the balance of power shifts, so how do they regain an advantage? This seems to be the original question.

I know you are a Brazilian Ju Jitsu proponent, so it's natural to take it's criticism personally, but I will still encourage you not to. I'm not making any personal judgements. Just answering the OP, which is about how to neutralize "a" BJJ attacker. We assume they meant no one in particular.
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Old 11-21-2013, 11:27 PM   #389
Michael Varin
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Re: What technique would you apply to neutralize Brazilian Jujitsu attacker

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Karl Arant wrote: View Post
Another oldie but goodie is to physically bite their nose while in full mount. You can choose to bite it off fully at your discretion. Look at what a little bite on the ear did to "Iron" Mike Tyson. Image that was your nose and realize you're not 10% as tough as Mike.
Hmm? If I remember correctly, and I'd like to think I do, Iron Mike was the "bitor" not the "bitee." Holyfield was the one jumping around the ring crying to the ref.

This actually bring up an interesting point. A few years ago I attended a James Williams seminar. At one point he said, "We all know how to stop an MMA guy, right? Just poke him in the eye or kick him in the testicles. They've all been conditioned to stop fighting when that happens."

I don't think he was wrong. The sportification of MMA has resulted in predictable responses from those who practice it. One should never disrespect the strengths that they have, but one shouldn't overlook the weaknesses either.

-Michael
"Through aiki we can feel the mind of the enemy who comes to attack and are thus able to respond immediately." - M. Mochizuki
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Old 11-22-2013, 05:55 AM   #390
Demetrio Cereijo
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Re: What technique would you apply to neutralize Brazilian Jujitsu attacker

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Michael Varin wrote: View Post
This actually bring up an interesting point. A few years ago I attended a James Williams seminar. At one point he said, "We all know how to stop an MMA guy, right? Just poke him in the eye or kick him in the testicles. They've all been conditioned to stop fighting when that happens."

I don't think he was wrong.
I think the opposite.

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Old 11-22-2013, 06:42 AM   #391
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Re: What technique would you apply to neutralize Brazilian Jujitsu attacker

Since we are talking generalizations here I'll throw out a few thoughts. I hope they haven't been covered (this is a long thread and I admit I haven't read all of it). Most BJJ guys I know move very slowly and work their way through each defense. In the dojo or even in a rules based sport system this is a good method. Most good BJJ guys I know are like a small stream of water; given enough time they will work their way into the smallest crack and open it up and then the whole river flows in. This method has advantages because you learn to be patient, not over commit to one attack or strategy and it teaches you to see openings everywhere. The problem is that in the field you need to take someone out quick, fast and in a hurry. Not every BJJ guy trains for that. I think for military or police work speed in breaking someone's defense needs to be a greater focus. Then again at the BJJ club I use to teach Daito-ryu out of the blackbelt teacher there submits folks VERY fast. So I guess it all depends.

I'd say the best technique against a BJJ guy is to bring a few friends with you because most BJJ guys move slowly and methodically. While he is tied up with you going through various positions of dominance your friend can light him up. Just my thought based on generalizations I have observed.

Chris Covington
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Old 11-22-2013, 11:48 AM   #392
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Re: What technique would you apply to neutralize Brazilian Jujitsu attacker

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Bill Danosky wrote: View Post
I would expect you to do well walking into a Judo dojo, Kevin, because we already know you are an exceptional martial artist. (Am I correct in recalling that your background is in MACP?) But in this thread we are actually asked to make generalizations about a category of martial artists. For the record, I was coming out for BJJ players and stating that they can be extremely dangerous. I roll with friends who can tap me 3 times in 5 minutes. So obviously, it makes sense to take some prior consideration and appropriate training (which is why I still roll with them).

To do that, we're required to discuss the relative weaknesses in general terms. My statement about BJJ'ers not liking to get hit is based on their UFC performance (yes, my favorite yardstick again). Demian Maia is one of the few really successful "pure" BJJ practitioners (well, maybe Fabricio Verdum and the Nogueira bros. too). And I was thinking of Maia when I said that. He hates it. Top trainers have learned how to counter BJJ, so it's lost the exclusive dominance it once had.

A BJJ player needs to take you down to work their game. Judoka are specialists in take down defense. That is why I say "all other things being equal" the BJJ player will struggle to implement their plan. Once it arrives on the ground, the balance of power shifts, so how do they regain an advantage? This seems to be the original question.

I know you are a Brazilian Ju Jitsu proponent, so it's natural to take it's criticism personally, but I will still encourage you not to. I'm not making any personal judgements. Just answering the OP, which is about how to neutralize "a" BJJ attacker. We assume they meant no one in particular.
I think this is where Mary usually chimes in with her "Circus Pony" comment!

Contrary I don't take it personally, I really don't...I just offer a counter perspective that is all.

It appears the "all things being equal" means within the constraints of competitive rules, so I will restrict my framework to that, especially as it applies to UFC and/or Judo tournaments, and BJJ tournaments.

in MACP training I used to spend a few hours lecturing about the effects of rules on fighting. we would show fights from UFC 1-4 and then later as the rules began to evolve...long story and can't really do this lecture on a forum... Rules matter is the bottom line. The early UFC certainly favored Gracie and Shamrock as they were able to exploit the rules and there were few well rounded fighters that did grappling and striking....there were specialist. As UFC rules put more constraints on the fights such as time limits, weight classes, limit to strikes, refs standing fights back up, and guys began to become more well rounded, it no longer required you to be good at BJJ, but only needed to learn how to defeat the BJJ opponents strategy. Agreed, today, we have no pure fighters in any one style but those that develop strategies that work well for them in UFC. However, those fighters are also specialist at what they do.

That same UFC fighter may not do well in a judo tournament or a BJJ tournament either. Rules matter. However, it is well accepted that you need to be somewhat proficient at grappling as well as striking.

I think the statement that says a BJJer needs to take you down to be successful at his game is an untrue stereotype. Certainly taking someone to the ground is a good strategy if you are good at that and they are bad at that. It certainly is safer than trading blows! Early Gracies in Action videos exploited this lack of understanding of other martial artist to the Gracies benefit!

My argument is that I have found GENERALLY that BJJers tend to be MORE well rounded than most martial art and you simply need to be cautious about forming generalizations. I support that with the proof that no other Martial Art has demonstrated the cross over potential that BJJ. We can split hairs over the relative significance of BJJ in UFC/MMA i.e. 50% stand up versus a ground and pound strategy etc. That may or may not have anything to do with self defense or reality on the street. (although I'd argue that UFC guys can probably hold there own!). We can also split hairs over the significance or percentage of fights that go to the ground on the street. (not important as 100% of all ground fights go to the ground and that is all that really matters if you are in one!)

I would hold up proof as to the adaptability of the BJJ training methods the following: BJJers did very well in Judo tournaments and still do, despite the Judo rule changes to discourage certain takedowns. Judo players do not fair as well in BJJ tournaments typically where the rules are less constrained. Judo and BJJ are not equally interchangeable, there is a distinct correalation that can be observed.

That is all I am saying. Agreed Judoka are specialist in their own right. I dedicated a few years to studying Judo and encourage all my students to study judo as the didactical model has much to offer.

However, the real core issue, IMO, isn't that BJJ is superior, it certainly isn't, but the real cause for success is the paradigm that BJJers typically adopt. That is, if it works...do it. It is an adaptive paradigm that is formed around a framework to make decisions. That is why you see the crossover potential of BJJ. So you will see high level guys studying muay thai for learning striking, going to judo to learn throwing etc. BJJers don't operate on a paradigm that is bound by tradition or style.

This can be frustrating for instructors sometimes when you get guys that need to learn basics emulating the latest Mendes Brothers moves, doing Marcelo Garcia's innovative moves, or going Eddie Bravo...but this is what I think makes it exciting and challenging too.

I sucked at thows (still do), so I strapped on a white belt and did Judo. What I carried with me from BJJ was not the techniques, but the framework of evaluation and decision making. That is the important part that allowed me to learn and adapt.

I use that same framework when I study Aiki. At this juncture, I'd say, I've really developed my own unique framework for decision making and evaluation. The important take away I think is to make sure that framework is not artificially constrained by the limits of your past experiences or martial art style.

For me, it really comes down to this secret...there are no BJJ attacks to neutralize!

A good BJJer has a solid framework composed of branches and sequels, he thinks two to three moves ahead and has five options for everything you are looking to neutralize. The chances are if you are working on an attack to neutralize, he has already moved on...you are behind his decision cycle and working to get back ahead.

So the secret to neutralize an attack is simple...you need to be ahead of his decision cycle and having him responding to your actions. This simply requires you to be better than him within the constraints of the "rules" you are playing by. it is not about the techniques.

This is what everyone above the rank of blue belt in BJJ intimately understands. It is not about techniques, but about understanding the conditions of the fight and simply being better than your opponent at what you do.

This is what makes BJJ culture and mindset adaptive as a methodology.

So if you want to neutralize him...go Musashi on him. Set the conditions of the encounter so they are favorable to you. Put the sun in his eyes. Constrain the situation. I bet you can do kokyu tanden ho better than 99% of the BJJers out there. I bet you can do ikkyo and shionage better than most of them too. I bet you that a Judoka can do Uchi Mata 100 times better and smoother than a BJJer too.

So the secret again is to only agree to fight him or compete with him within the constraints of the rules in which you understand you can beat him at. Don't fight his fight.

The under current is this though....if he cares and values what you do...most likely he will begin to learn it and figure out how to adopt it. His framework and paradigm demands that this happen....for me, this is the real secret to what make a BJJer successful and why BJJ has the reputation that it has. If he doesn't care about it...then he will simply ignore you and not engage you under those rules.

It is nothing special about the collection of techniques or the rules of BJJ.

I think there is something to be learned from this for anyone....have a good decision making and evaluation framework and be open to new things. It is that simple.

So to close. BJJers have been successful in other martial endeavors, not because the base practice of BJJ is better, but because the culture has an adaptive framework that is conducive to crossover. I firmly believe you will continue to see a large proportion of BJJers in MMA because of this. The mindset that these individual have makes them extremely successful in developing successful fight plans.

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Old 11-22-2013, 11:54 AM   #393
Kevin Leavitt
 
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Re: What technique would you apply to neutralize Brazilian Jujitsu attacker

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Chris Covington wrote: View Post
Since we are talking generalizations here I'll throw out a few thoughts. I hope they haven't been covered (this is a long thread and I admit I haven't read all of it). Most BJJ guys I know move very slowly and work their way through each defense. In the dojo or even in a rules based sport system this is a good method. Most good BJJ guys I know are like a small stream of water; given enough time they will work their way into the smallest crack and open it up and then the whole river flows in. This method has advantages because you learn to be patient, not over commit to one attack or strategy and it teaches you to see openings everywhere. The problem is that in the field you need to take someone out quick, fast and in a hurry. Not every BJJ guy trains for that. I think for military or police work speed in breaking someone's defense needs to be a greater focus. Then again at the BJJ club I use to teach Daito-ryu out of the blackbelt teacher there submits folks VERY fast. So I guess it all depends.

I'd say the best technique against a BJJ guy is to bring a few friends with you because most BJJ guys move slowly and methodically. While he is tied up with you going through various positions of dominance your friend can light him up. Just my thought based on generalizations I have observed.
Those are good points Chris and I agree. The typically game of BJJ is careful slow and deliberate. We play our game to someone else's disadvantage. It is a VERY fun game to play! This may or may not reflect the reality of a fight. and I agree that you need to work speed, efficiency, and economy of motion. Correct, not every BJJer trains for that.

As I am a Military guy that teaches combatives as well as BJJ, we teach both. I try to show when I'd use different things depending on the conditions. For example I am not an advocate of the Mount on the street if I can control with Knee on Belly. Mount is too committed if you must move fast to get to another opponent.

It is about understanding the end states, conditions, and effects of your training. There are different decisions that you make depending on these things. You have to train as you will fight!

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Old 11-22-2013, 12:07 PM   #394
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Re: What technique would you apply to neutralize Brazilian Jujitsu attacker

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Hmm? If I remember correctly, and I'd like to think I do, Iron Mike was the "bitor" not the "bitee." Holyfield was the one jumping around the ring crying to the ref.

This actually bring up an interesting point. A few years ago I attended a James Williams seminar. At one point he said, "We all know how to stop an MMA guy, right? Just poke him in the eye or kick him in the testicles. They've all been conditioned to stop fighting when that happens."

I don't think he was wrong. The sportification of MMA has resulted in predictable responses from those who practice it. One should never disrespect the strengths that they have, but one shouldn't overlook the weaknesses either.
I'll go ahead and bite hard on this one...I normally don't do this, but James Williams is a well known public martial arts figure Icon, so I'll criticize....

I generally hear such comments from people that have something to hide or protect. That is, they really have no real solution for dealing with fighting. They will hide behind the trappings and constraints of the world they have created for themselves. Hakama, swords, knifes, and "sensei-hood".

I have NEVER seen a video of someone that makes those comments lay it on the line with an MMAer or grappler and demonstrate their proficiency at that range of combat. They will make excuses such as "I'd have to constrain myself cause what I do is deadly".

I'd actually have respect for the comments if they have actually done that and it worked and could be replicated under those conditions.

Short of that, it comes across to me as a weakness in character. that is, to dismiss and marginalize something that should be respected for what it is.

Good MMA guys can fight. (I am not talking about Tapout Shirt wearing guys).... End of discussion. They have been conditioned to take pain and drive on and press a good fight under pressure. They have been tested. A finger poke or testicle kick, may or may not stop them...we really don't know that until it happens do we?

I know what an MMA guy like GSP is capable of because I have seen him fight. I have never seen James Williams fight so I don't know what he may or may not do under pressure. I assume if you put a sword in his hand that he would be very proficient with it...that I would respect. On that same note, if you put that same sword in GSP's hands...how might he do??? we don't really know do we? we can imagine it...but the answer would be "it depends".

I'd rather see guys in martial arts say something like..."wow, those MMA guys are very good...you really need to respect what they do if you get into a fight."

The comments Michael attribute to James Williams above is EXACTLY my point about decision making frameworks, paradigms, and self imposed constraints....they can get you in trouble if you begin to adopt the wrong mindset.

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Old 11-22-2013, 05:39 PM   #395
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Re: What technique would you apply to neutralize Brazilian Jujitsu attacker

"They have been conditioned to take pain and drive on and press a good fight under pressure. They have been tested. A finger poke or testicle kick, may or may not stop them...we really don't know that until it happens do we?"

I am very suspect of ball kicks, eye pokes and in general pain compliance techniques used alone, if they do not use kuzushi. I feel like adrenaline is enough to keep a halfway engaged fighter in the fight. From personal experience I have injured myself and never realized it until the fight was well over.

When I was in high school I was in a judo match and went to throw taiotoshi. My foot wasn't down in "live toe" position but was in a dead position and the kid fell on my foot breaking four of my small metatarsus in 7 different places. Didn't feel a thing; I choked the kid out on the ground and won the match. My foot couldn't support my weight when I stood up so I knew something was wrong. It didn't start hurting for a good hour after I got home.

More recently I was in a foot pursuit with my partner. At some point I sprained my ankle (not really sure when). My partner and the suspect went down a flight of stairs. My partner's hand went through a plate of glass in a door and he almost served his hand clean off. It was held on by the inside wrist tendons. Bone and everything else was cut. He kept on the guy trying to make the arrest even with the cut hand. His hand was trapped in the door frame which restricted his movement or else he may have been able to hold the guy til I got there (I don't run as fast as these guys did). Suspect got away but I was able to follow after him until other units could catch up in vehicles and we got our guy. Another officer stayed with my partner. I didn't notice the ankle sprain until I was sitting with my partner's wife in shock trauma.

So yeah... ball kicks and eye pokes... not so much in the thick of it.

Cheers!

Chris Covington
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Old 11-22-2013, 07:48 PM   #396
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Re: What technique would you apply to neutralize Brazilian Jujitsu attacker

Now we are getting somewhere. It's a shock to your system to inflict or receive damage; hardened criminals and MMA competitors are both desensitized to the negative effects that unconditioned people suffer. I'm not going to tell any glory stories, but OTOH, I have been hit pretty hard a few times, so I can almost always say I've had worse. That can make the difference between something making you submit, and it pi$$ing you off.

There are certainly emotional and psychological effects that go along with violent encounters. Fear/aggression, dominance/submission, fight/flight, etc, etc. The kind of thing Kevin was mentioning awhile back. Somewhere in there is the tolerance you have to sustain damage and still fight back, and that is not something that we are getting from our Aikido training. O Sensei wanted no competition in his training, but it's not right to send people out into the world untested, with the impression that they are prepared.

I like what I'm learning, and I can do it for another 25 years, which I couldn't do with MMA or really even Judo successfully. Maybe I just don't want to work out that hard any more. So I will keep plotting to strip Yoshinkan Aikido down into hack Ju Jitsu through the week, but I think my workshop money is going to tactical CQC training from here out. I am not going to have a physical advantage over many people at 48, so I need to know what I'm doing, now more than ever.
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Old 11-23-2013, 12:23 AM   #397
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Re: What technique would you apply to neutralize Brazilian Jujitsu attacker

Bill Wrote:

Quote:
O Sensei wanted no competition in his training, but it's not right to send people out into the world untested, with the impression that they are prepared.
I think it depends on what you are looking for. There are those that care about this and those that don't. I think there are many good reasons to train.

Quote:
I like what I'm learning, and I can do it for another 25 years, which I couldn't do with MMA or really even Judo successfully. Maybe I just don't want to work out that hard any more. So I will keep plotting to strip Yoshinkan Aikido down into hack Ju Jitsu through the week, but I think my workshop money is going to tactical CQC training from here out. I am not going to have a physical advantage over many people at 48, so I need to know what I'm doing, now more than ever.
lol...the problem we all face! I don't train like I did 10 years ago. I think you have to train appropriately and wisely. You only have a punch card with so many break falls on it. How many do you really need to do after you master that? I don't think it has to do with wanting to work out as hard as you begin to see the futility.

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Old 11-23-2013, 08:33 AM   #398
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Re: What technique would you apply to neutralize Brazilian Jujitsu attacker

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Kevin Leavitt wrote: View Post
I think it depends on what you are looking for. There are those that care about this and those that don't. I think there are many good reasons to train.
1.) Ego reinforcement
2.)

Sorry, I couldn't come up with anything else.
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Old 11-23-2013, 09:38 AM   #399
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Re: What technique would you apply to neutralize Brazilian Jujitsu attacker

Maybe Ego reinforcement. Some may have an actual need to train the spectrum of force/violence process and actually have a working knowledge of how to apply this stuff. Others may simply feel a calling to it and simply enjoy it. Who knows?

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Old 11-25-2013, 12:39 PM   #400
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Re: What technique would you apply to neutralize Brazilian Jujitsu attacker

Because you have only mentioned one of the ten thousand variables for any encounter, one would simply use the "appropriate" technique once the remaining variables were known. No two encounters with any aggression could ever be the same.
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